Beth n Rod

Do you meana semitransparent oil? Never have, don't plan to. Maintenance wash is all it needs. The only thing we did that came close to that, was a reapplication of a solid that the homeowner wanted us to maintain...blue and grey...to match the siding. Beth

Smart man Shane. That was an expensive sounding deck! Philip, Brightening the wood also helps to remove the tannin stains around screws and nails in the wood making it look more like it did when it was first built. Neutralizing stops the action of any akaline product used to wash with as well creating basic salts. Also remember, the products are only active when wet. Once you rinse the product off the deck thoroughly, it dries and the effects stop there. The wood will return to its natural pH. Yes Celeste, there is a so-called side effect and it happens in the use of many chems we apply to wood to get it to do what we need it to in order to prepare the surface for the sealer. Neutralizing is the action of stopping the reaction of the previous product used, Brightening is (side effect as it was mentioned) the other action of bleaching out the excess tannins on the surface leaving the wood lighter in color. Another side effect is the way it helps to disolve rust on nail and screw heads if it is applied strong enough although this is only necessary if you have stripped the deck. Rod~

Thank you...! Beth

Percarbs are slightly alkaline. Wood is slightly acidic by nature. You need to neutralize. Granted, you may make up a weaker solution to neutralize with, but it's a step we never, ever, skip. We also perfer (have for years) Citralic acid to pure Oxylic. Citralic is a blend of Oxylic an Citric. Extreme Solutions makes it and sells it, Sun Brite sells it also. It goes on easily, doesn't leave the wood with an unnatural silver hue like you can get if you over apply Oxylic and it dries, looks more natural, and it is less hazardous to work with than pure Oxylic. Pure Oxylic exposure can lead to sterility. To some of you that may matter. Nuff said 'bout that. Beth

Jim, Re-read the post. The deck was just washed. It was wet! Ken, Tried the bleach method for maintenance but it didnt work well. Mildew and algae gone but the maintenance coat turned out shiney all over. Now instead, I use the 2-step method with HD-80 at 2-3 oz/gal and neutralize. (Wood Tux! decks that is.) The finish turns out matte like it did originally. Shane, That Sucks! 60sqft/gal coverage. :lgbugeyes Did you bid it high enough to cover the product costs? avg would have been 8 gallons to do that size of a deck. My answer to this is that bleach is less hazardous than the contractor 2-step method of chems and reduces their liability. Also, it shortens the expected life of the product applied increasing their sales cycle revenue! Rod~

Bingo! Beth

I told you it would look great. ;) Beth

The issues you face with reapplication are not the same as with stripping. Depending on the strength a stripper is mixed at, it may be an issue even if it is a minimal amount. For example, a pro could go out and say gee, I only need 2 or 3 oz per gallon, I don't see a film here...but then they hit a wall...doesn't look quite right. This is why it is important o see if you can learn what is on a deck and how long ago it was applied, so you can determine how to strip the deck. I would rather walk onto a deck that is obviously filmed up, than onto an innocent looking one where the homeowner has not got a clue what the prior owner ( as an example) had done to it. Food for thought... Beth

Sorry to disagree with the bleach fans but, Bleach causes a chemical reaction with the resins in the wood to create a film that can inhibit penetration of a sealer applied over it. To state an example: A number of years ago, I washed a house after washing the deck (client add-on after the job began) and got plenty of the cleaning solution (1/3 gal bleach and other cleaning ingredients in a 5 gal bucket and x-jetted onto the siding) on the deck within a few feet of the siding. Even though I thoroughly rinsed the deck off afterwards, the end result was that the sealer did not take well in that area and needed to be recoated in order to even it up. Now, to avoid this situation, I will only wash the house first and then wash the deck in order to make sure to limit the exposure to the wood and also to insure I have applied an acid to help neutralize any akalinity from either process so I dont have a repeat on this condition. Other companies have used bleach to wash a deck with and didnt leave it on there to dry, but the wood still looked like almost white when they were finished. The client calls us to fix the problem. I have seen it too many times in my experience ranging from novice companies to the weekend warriors who go and buy the stuff available at HD and put it on their deck and wonder why the job didnt turn out very good. I have seen new decks turned into cracks and splits from the use of bleach which causes the wood to dry out faster and actually speeds up the aging process. Human error or not, bleach causes problems with wood if you dont inititiate the additional step of neutralization which I dont see anyone yet mentioning here. Overall, I personally dont like the way the wood looks after being treated with a bleach solution at any concentration. It doesnt look natural. The 2 step method works best for our company and our clients and I dont have to worry about the products performance until its time to send out the 2 year reminder cards for maintenance. IMHO, use the right tool for the right job. Rod~

Why re-invent the wheel? Taking short cuts can lead to other problems. I would suggest that anyone using these products do so according to labeled instructions and try not to create any hazardous situations...the chems alone are dangerous as they are without trying to simplify things for the sake of saving time. In the past, I have noticed a trend among some that they always are looking to save time, cut corners, combine things, in order to increase the bottom line and while in some cases it may be feasable, mostly it only leads to other problems. My suggestion is to evaluate your chems, technique, and methods of operation and streamline them as much as possible, then if that isnt making you enough money...raise your prices! Costs are going up for everything due to gas prices and so on. I have seen our prices for sealers and other job supplies rise from 5-15% over the last year and its hard to keep competitive with so many new companies whose costs are lower at this stage. Being legitimate is expensive and guess who is footing the bill??? The best answer is the Customer. In business, it is not healthy to just absorb cost increases and expect to stay in the black. :rant: Ok, I'm done now. Rod~

I only know of one thickening agent out there at this time, if anyone knows of others -speak up. ESI ( Extreme Solutions) makes one called Hang Time. They sell it and I bet Sun Brite does too. Jon is right, it will depend on what you are stripping as to how well anything will hold, or begin to work before running off. You might have been applying too heavily also. If you let it dry you waited too long. Keep it damp to moist... it doesn't have to be a river...hope that helps. Beth

I had one prospect that said he would "inspect" my equipment before signing for the work...I just let the door close behind me on my way out. He had a big problem to begin with about the price and didnt really see any reason for it to be 1200 bucks for a 900sf deck that needed to be stripped and sanded before applying sikkens cetol dek. His idea of a good price was around 250-300 bucks. I told him that would barely cover the cost of the product and nothing else. No one needs to inspect the equipment. They mostly do so in order to become a competitor. Yeah, I could show it off, but in the residential market, the huge hydrotek skid and tank would only make them nervous that I would blow their deck off the side of the house. :) Rod~

You can say that again! Beth

I'm sure the owner will be thrilled. That's what counts, right? Beth

Keep wet with more product.... yes... scratch....be patient. Don't wash till you can get thru to bare wood in multiple places. Seeing it melt is a good sign when stripping. That's what you want to see. You will learn how to adjust the amount you mix up to strip with as you get more comfortable. It's won't be the same each time necessarily, it may depend on the stain you are removing. My bet is, Wood Defender will be an easy strip. Beth :cup:

What a boogered up mess! Beth

Cool! Looks great on the wood too! Can't wait to see the whole thing. I'm sure it will be a masterpiece. Beth :sunshine:

Thanks Mike! :groovy3:

You are better off buying two products and using two steps. We tried the Wolman product at one point, and decided we liked two better. Beth

Tight ring pattern is not necessarily an indicator of dense wood fibers. Redwood is so soft you can scratch it easily with your fingernail. A dense hardwood will not scratch easily. Typically old growth redwood is moderately lightweight, moderately strong and stiff, and moderately hard. The wood is easy to work, and generally straight in grain. The heartwood from old growth trees has high decay resistance; heartwood from second growth trees generally has low to moderate decay resistance. You can speculate what else is effected when trees are cut from second growth. Beth

I'm thinking several things here... pigment interfereing as suspected... this test might work better if the sealer is applied to wood, allowed to dry and cure, then the wood is rewet and the paper applied.... even oils/resins have a slight color...like a pale amber Interesting idea to test the sealer tho... Beth

If you have old, dry, uncared for wood, wood that is very open and porous and is a softwood, like this... then it may possible (theoretically) that as you introduce the oil, the oil is going far enough in to the wood to carry some of the tannin back up too. Also the deeper the oil goes, the darker the result will be. ( I think this is more likely) If the UV damage is that bad and the client wants lighter wood, then you are faced with sanding. Hey Rick, snap some clean and dry pics as well as some sealed pics. Beth

I understand the phenomenon, just thinking out loud about why it shows up. Alkaline things will highlight the tannin, acidic things lessen visability. Makes me wonder if a sealer for redwood needs to be a tad more acidic...just thinking aloud... Beth

Hey one other curious thought...if alkaline things darken tannin, and acidic things lighten tannin, then is it really tannin bleeding/leaching that is taking place when a sealer darkens wood, given that alkaline products typically are associated with cleaners that break down sealers? Can anyone elaborate? Beth

Can't wait to see it Rick! Keep us posted. Good luck on the deck! Beth