propylene glycol

[bigchaz 157]

Its my understand that prop glycol acts as an added punch for sodium hydroxide. What is the recomended mix rate for a 5 gallon pail of stripper? Timberstrip pro is the product if it matters.

Are we talking like an ounce of glycol for a gallon of stripper or higher? What kind of reaction is to be expected? Will it foam, gas off, bubble, explode, get thick, change color, etc

For those wondering its the prestone low tox.

[drush 14]

hi chaz...

i got my info from russell on that nasty painted deck i did awhile back. he suggested the low tox with 13 oz. (vol) p/gal. i do think that is the correct ratio & yes, it worked well. also helped to adhere to vert's better. didn't have any adverse reaction, but you want to add it last if i remember correctly. you may want to contact him just to be sure. hope this helps.

david

[Russell Cissell 65]

Dave is right on. If you were attempting to boost HD-80 the correct rate would be 10% or 12.8 oz per gallon of stripper. In your case, 1/2 gallon to 5 gallons. Always add the booster last.

I can't be sure if this will be correct for Timberstrip or not.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

oooo..one my fav topics!....yes in my research it was Sierrahttp://www.sierraantifreeze.com/sstores.html /Peak found at Kragens, etc. http://cskauto.com/StoreLocator.aspx that wins out in the balancing act of pricing and availability. But you can go here for synonyms (meth): Propylene Glycol , Polyoxyethylene Nonylphenol

..manufactures often pick uncommom synonyms to help protect their recipes.

I have an interior floor stripper that I use from a company only about 3mi. from my place. The raw ingredients we talk about for the wood is same and they are in 55gal. drums from a chem supplier that escapes me right now.. Sounds sorta like Chem store but it isn't. I'll get it next time I go in there. They have to be way better priced then Chem store rates or retail.

[bigchaz 157]

Anyone know if there is any other products that can be purchased locally to use as an additive for naOH?

[PressurePros 249]

butyl.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Butyl Cellosolve

note the confusing synonyms...again this be one of the few in my floor stripper..am assuming it be the standard toxic antifreeze or similar.

ps. -Interesting quote from Wikipedia- "Ethylene glycol has seen some use as a rot and fungal treatment for wood, both as a preventative and a treatment after the fact. It has been used in a few cases to treat partially rotted wooden objects to be displayed in museums. It is one of only a few treatments that are successful in dealing with rot in wooden boats, and is relatively cheap."

Now if I track down the exact name of what's in my stripper it is number nine down on the following list of glycol ethers in parenthesis (2-butoxy----) Glycol ethers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia but of course the warehouse that produces the stripper is full of standard 55gal drums labeled ethylene glycol.

So it has three ingredients: Potassium hydroxide, monoethanolamine (mea), and the glycol kicker. The mea is a buffer if not mistaken and when they mix it all together the potash is the heat, and the other two kick it off and allow it to soak in and emulisfy the gunk. This stripper although meant for other use than wood is the second most hottest I ever come across in 20 years on floor work. It is equivelent or better then anything in the general retail market/Johnson type acrylic strippers. The best stripper beyond that I ever found besides going to the obvious paint strippers (meth chloride type gels) is made by a company called Surtec out of Tracy, Ca. Not sure what additives they got in it but it was only solution that made it through a 20 coats plus concrete job one time for me. Did take double strip in parts... we tested about a half dozen products on that job prior to going to my old standby in Surtec..lol..but realize these I speak of are premixed and we can make our stuff hotter... within reason of course.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Ethylene glycol phenyl ether C.A.S. #122-99-6 happens to work great in a booster.

Tom @ ACR products sells an additive called 633 that helps to expand the range of sealants a stripper would work with and is less hazardous to the environment.

Rod!~

[bigchaz 157]

You completely lost me on your second paragraph kevin, but if ethylene glycol (regular antifreeze) is a main ingredient in your stripper, why does everyone specify that the antifreeze should be the propylene based one if using it as a booster?

Ken: Where to buy butyl?

[PressurePros 249]

I was told by Russell that ethylene glycol will not work as a booster additive. I'm not saying you are wrong Rod as I am not a chemist but relaying what I was told.

If you want a killer downstream-able stripper that will remove almost anything (in a 25 gallon tank) mix:

20 gallons water

One ten lb tub of HD-80

2 gallons polypropolene glycol

2 gallons butyl cellosolve

Kevin, further explaination on the difference between the two antifreezes? Butyl celosolve has ethylene glycol listed next to it on websites validating what Rod was saying. I am already lost as I am a lousy technician. Anything you can add to clarify (en anglais, s'il vous plais) would be appreciated.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Ones toxic and the other less toxic apparently. Chaz, Second paragraph I mean to say that manufactures mix things to be stable..

Ken, I think it is partially true what you heard from Russell in that I think various makeups of the glycols will not produce the kick we're after but with that said I do not know that standard ethylene glycol fits that bill. There is some confusion that I can't clear up in trying to address kicking off/catylizing the stripper element cause I am not a chemist. What I do know is that we can easily be confused between soak in factor versus reactive factor when adding chems together..The mea I mentioned would be example of giving soak in factor.

We need Russell or Philip..LOL

Ken, what is the purpose in having both the safer stuff and then the butyl in yer mix? Like are you under impression one does something the other does not or do you think the butyl is safe or different than standard glycol?

[PressurePros 249]

Butyl is synergistic with sodium hydroxide. The best concrete mixes have butyl and hydroxide. But that is not why I do it. I didn't come up with this mix. The Chemist™ at ESI did. I just follow directions. If I am not mistaken, ESI's Boost has both in it.

This is what I was hoping you could clear up.. why use both? (using both makes the mix formidable and very dangerous to work with) I wonder if it would be just as potent using 4 galons of either one as opposed to two of each) I'm lossssssssssst

[MMI Enterprises 289]

That synergist word is along right lines I think ken but again it could be possable that the term is misused or misapplied. It should mean that they work together to boost or react more. Would either glycol boost?. I can't say..my memory is truly shot..Again I turn to soaking in factor as I know that is very key. My floor stuff uses the mea and I assume it is mainly for buffering and soak factor and may not be the synergistic activation producing element...so I would ask what is the 2-butoxy element?. I have to assume it is the activator and is the same as ethylene glycol.

Only three ingredients in what I am refering to..

In yours Ken you may be doubling up without need. Maybe the mea is a cheaper solution doing same..Don't know..

[bigchaz 157]

I think the confusion is that most of these could be the same chemical??? maybe? The one Rod posted is listed is one of tons of ethylene glycol based chemicals all of which are synonyms for butyl cellosolve. Antifreeze never specifies past ethylene glycol in the ingredients.

I wonder what the differance between phenyl ether and monobutyl ether is

Theres tons of ethylene glycol ---- ethers. You got monobutyl, phenyl, butyl, n-butyl, mono butyl, mono-n-butyl, and probable some others that I missed. This is all from kevins link earlier

2-Butoxy ethanol

CAS # [111-76-2]

Synonyms: Butyl cellosolve; Dowanol EB; Butyl oxitol; Jeffersol EB; Ektasolve EB; Ethylene glycol mono butyl ether; Ethylene glycol n-butyl ether; n-Butyl Cellosolve; Ethylene Glycol Mono-n-butyl Ether; butoxyethanol; Beta-butoxyethanol; Ethylene glycol butyl ether; BUCS; n-butoxyethanol; 2-butoxy-1-ethanol; o-butyl ethylene glycol; butyl glycol; gafcol eb; glycol butyl ether; glycol ether eb; glycol ether eb acetate; monobutyl ether of ethylene glycol; monobutyl glycol ether; 3-oxa-1-heptanol; poly-solv eb; 2-n-Butoxyethanol; Ektasolve EB solvent; 2-n-Butoxy-1-ethanol; 2-BUTOXY ETHANOL (ETHYLENE GLYCOL MONOBUTYL ETHER)

[MMI Enterprises 289]

..makes you want to go to kragen/chucker don't it Chaz??.. :)

[PressurePros 249]

but is ethyl buto yad yada glycol the same ingredient as just ethylene glycol? I would venture not or we would be using butyl as an antifreeze. This is Ken serving as the blind leading the blind.. I better step back and wait for some real information. Where's Ryan or Russell when you need them?

[MMI Enterprises 289]

seriousley feel yer pain ken..lol.. I just know that you can get any number of products/chemicals from the raw chemical before it almost similar to mineral oil coming from kerosene. If your poisoned from Ethylene Glycol,the wikipedia mentions giving alcohol to the person cause it attaches to the glycol molecules rendering them harmless. It also mentions how inside the body you end up with oxalic acid from the glycol....funny hu?

Now the news of the day on poisoning is all abou them thousands of Chinese food manufactures doing their food up with dangerous stuff right?,. so scroll down to bottom of this glycol varience to see the poisonings over the years, June 2007 is already listed concerning Chinese Colgate toothpaste. Makes ya wonder don't it!!

Diethylene glycol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[bigchaz 157]

Well the main ingrediant in Rug Doctor high traffic pre treatment is ETHYLENE GLYCOL MONOBUTYL ETHER which according to the chemistry store is the same thing as butyl cellosolve.

Is that a good choice or is their something else to use instead Ken? I cant find straight butyl cellosolve in a product I can purchase without ordering online.

[PressurePros 249]

Thats my point Chaz.. is ethylene glycol monopbutyl ether the same thing as ethylene glycol? I think its like brown sugar and white sugar.. similar but used in different applications. I get my butyl from a local janitorial supply house. If memory serves, it is 8%. I'll have to double check that though.

[bigchaz 157]

Update: Apparently butyl cellosolve is a registered trade name. Still trying to find out what the actual chemical name for it is. Explain why i cant seem to find it listed in any product msds...they probably use the chemical name instead of the trade name

[bigchaz 157]

Thats my point Chaz.. is ethylene glycol monopbutyl ether the same thing as ethylene glycol? I think its like brown sugar and white sugar.. similar but used in different applications. I get my butyl from a local janitorial supply house. If memory serves, it is 8%. I'll have to double check that though.

Yea i think your right. The different names must have some kind of different characteristics, otherwise we would be using regular antifreeze for all kinds of commercial cleaning applications where the ethylene glycol based products are currently used.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

read the top of the earlier link I gave Glycol ethers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

cleck cellosolve link to get here

2-Ethoxyethanol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

standard stuff Ethylene glycol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

brown and white sugar as Ken says. maybe one is stronger, maybe one boosts and one not.....too complex fer me..

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Les offers some info steering folks towards safety here:

BUTYL & SODIUM HYPOCHLORITE - Pressure Washing Institute

...in other words be careful how much booster or what ya put it in. I've never had plans to stick it in my regular percarb mix for instance..

[bigchaz 157]

If propylene glycol isnt butyl based (which im not sure of) that would mean its fine for adding to sodium hydroxide (both oxidizers?)

That might be why the specification is for propylene glycol as opposed to ethylene glycol which would be butyl based

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Chaz, Think Les made clear later on in that thread how it is not a situation of never doing butyl into oxidizer but that danger can happen if done in carefree attitude with no understanding of what your doing. Reactions happen which make heat.

Look what Russell says way back about his booster:

"The only listing that you will find on the MSDS for the booster is Ethylene glycol mono butyl ether or C6H14O2

The booster was designed to be a formulary enhancer increasing the reactivity of HD-80 allowing it to emulsify paint and varnishes. It is used with HD-80 at up to 10% or 1/2 gallon per 5 gallons. This should allow you to remove any finish that you find on exterior wood decks, fences or homes. If you are trying to remove bottom paint from a boat call for specific directions.

Best of Luck

Russell Cissell" http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/look-whats-new/2045-new-hd-80-booster-now-stock.html

..note the c6h14o2 here: Butyl Cellosolve

...is chem in much of our over the counter cleaners like Castrol's purple power,formula 409, etc, and is why they are called butyl based: 2-Butoxyethanol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2-Ethoxyethanol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

..but hey most that stuff has filler and will foam to high heaven if you put a half gal. in a fiver. Probably lots of carbonate and who knows what else in them.

I work for some Shell chem distributors so maybe they got me the 2-ethoxy.

Should just make my own floor stripper with it as well at this point.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Chaz, Think Les made clear later on in that thread how it is not a situation of never doing butyl into oxidizer but that danger can happen if done in carefree attitude with no understanding of what your doing. Reactions happen which make heat. His first post does say

"Butyl Acetate (Ethylene glycol, Glycol ether EB).....----etc.----.....except with acetate which could combust."

So from what he says it is not the butyl aspect but the acetate aspect to watch for...

Look what Russell says way back about his booster which is butyl:

"The only listing that you will find on the MSDS for the booster is Ethylene glycol mono butyl ether or C6H14O2

The booster was designed to be a formulary enhancer increasing the reactivity of HD-80 allowing it to emulsify paint and varnishes. It is used with HD-80 at up to 10% or 1/2 gallon per 5 gallons. This should allow you to remove any finish that you find on exterior wood decks, fences or homes. If you are trying to remove bottom paint from a boat call for specific directions.

Best of Luck

Russell Cissell" http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/look-whats-new/2045-new-hd-80-booster-now-stock.html

..note the c6h14o2 here : Butyl Cellosolve (same chemstore link)

...is chem in much of our over the counter cleaners like Castrol's purple power,formula 409, etc, and is why they are called butyl based:

2-Butoxyethanol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ,

for differences between butoxy and acetate look here: 2-BUTOXYETHANOL (BUTYL CELLOSOLVE) 2-BUTOXYETHYL ACETATE (BUTYL CELLOSOLVE ACETATE)