In GOD we trust no more?

[Ron Musgraves 240]

I heard and have not seen the dollar coin. They say no more in god we trust?

Is that true? We dont print that on new dollar coin.

I'm not sure i have and opionion on the subject, I just dont like change.

[Apple Roof Cleaning 202]

In GOD we trust, All others Pay CASH :lgangel:

[Apple Roof Cleaning 202]

This is just MY opinion, FWIW.

In GOD we Trust IMHO, had NO business on our currency in the first place.

I deeply respect anyone's right to worship, or not worship any being he chooses.

But the constitution does provide for a separation between Church and State.

The word WE implies everyone.

Everyone does not believe in God :lgwave:

Therefore everyone does not TRUST in God.

Personally, that phrase being on our currency did not bother me enough to take to the Supreme Court.

Looks like someone did, huh ?

Further checking reveals it is still on our currency.

If it bothers anyone, here is a Petition "In God We Trust" Removal Petition

[Grant 500]

I will not get into the debate of wether "In God WE Trust" should or should not be on US currency, but Ron IT DOES appear on the new coins, but you have to look very closely at the edge of the coin. that is also where the date of the coin and "E Plubis Unum" appears.

[JMSC 14]

correct, it is on the outer edge. it is starting a lot of controversy though, its the governments way of slowly getting it of the coin. I like having it on our coins.

[Sparklean 14]

The constitution is free to read, perhaps you should try doing so some time.

You're erroneously mis-applying what was written in this letter as if it were written into the constitution.

What is in the constitution, via amendment (Bill of Rights) is: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

That mentions nothing of separating the Church and the State. What it does state is that congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. That is, by my interpretation, and that of millions of others, is that the government cannot declare a certain religion/faith or multiple religions/faiths to be the "official" religion. The architects of the constitution were not stupid men. They were quite intelligent. Had they meant for the Church and State to be completely separated as so many suggest, they would have stated such.

But the constitution does provide for a separation between Church and State.

[CALLTODD 15]

I think Adam is right on that one...

[Apple Roof Cleaning 202]

I RESENT Someone, ANYONE, telling me what I SHOULD Believe.

Might want to read THIS ? :lgtear:

Is This a Christian Nation?

Myths About the Separation of Church and State

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Myth:

The United States is a Christian Nation.

Response: This can be taken a couple of different ways, some valid and some not. It could mean simply that a majority of Americans are Christian and/or have always been Christian. This is true. It could mean that American society has been heavily influenced by Christian beliefs and traditions. This is also true. These are, however, simply factual observations and do not mean much when it comes to political and legal action.

The most common meaning behind the above claim is that America is "Christian" in the sense that it represents Christian doctrines, beliefs and goals. It is "Christian" in the same way that a Methodist congregation is "Christian" - it exists for the sake of believing Christians and is supposed to aid people in being Christians.

Upon what can such a position be based? One way is to argue from the fact that many who came here were Christians fleeing persecution in Europe. Aside from the irony of using past persecution to justify contemporary persecution, this merely confuses the context of how and why the continent was settled with how and why the United States, as a legal entity, was created.

Another argument made is that the early colonies normally had established churches and the governments actively supported Christianity. This is not, however, a very effective argument, because it was exactly this against which many people fought. The First Amendment was specifically designed to prohibit established churches, and at the Constitutional Convention, attempts to write in some sort of nominal support for Christianity always failed. In addition, the people at the time were distinctly "unchurched." The best estimates indicate that only 10% to 15% of the population actually attended church services.

It is true that Ben Franklin proposed that delegates at the Convention open their sessions with morning prayers, and people who oppose the separation of church and state try to make a lot out of this. According to the records, Franklin suggested that "henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business."

Aside from the fact that such a prayer clearly isn't very Christian in nature, what is usually left unsaid is the fact that his proposal was never accepted. Indeed, delegates didn't even bother voting on it - instead, they voted to adjourn for the day! The proposal was not taken up the next day, and Franklin never bothered to mention it again. Sometimes, unfortunately, religious leaders will actually claim that this proposal was accepted, a distortion which appears to have originated with Senator Willis Robertson, father of Religious Right leader Pat Robertson.

The delegates' refusal to base this nation on Christianity can also be seen in the fact that neither God nor Christianity are mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. In the main part of the Constitution, the only mention of religion is that there should be no "religious tests" for public office. The First Amendment, then, prohibits the government from either establishing religion or interfering with people's religious beliefs. At the time, more than one critic denounced the Constitution as a "godless document" - hardly the product of people seeking to establish a "Christian Nation," is it? This was not an error or an oversight - it was a deliberate attempt to frame the nature of our government and political system in secular, worldly terms.

It is occasionally argued by a few desperate people that the Constitution ends with the date stated as "in the year of our Lord." This is not, however, an effort to establish the nation as a Christian nation. This is rather the way people dated documents at the time and the fact is the West operates on a Christian dating system. Using Christian dates, then, is a reflection of the influence Christianity has had on our culture and not a reflection of the basis for our political system.

The position that the United States is a "Christian Nation" is dealt a serious blow by the fact that, as early as 1797, the government specifically said that it is not a Christian Nation. The occasion was a peace and trade agreement between the United States and Muslim leaders in North Africa. The negotiations were conducted under the authority of George Washington, and the final document, known as the Treaty of Tripoli, was approved of by the Senate under the leadership of John Adams, the second president. This treaty states, without equivocation, that the "...Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...."

Contrary to the claims made by some from the Religious Right, America was not founded as a Christian Nation which was then later undermined by godless liberals and humanists. Just the opposite is the case, actually. The Constitution is a godless document and the government of the United States was set up as a formally secular institution. It has, however, been undermined by well-meaning Christians who have sought to subvert its secular principles and framework for the sake of this or that "good cause," usually in the interest of promoting this or that religious doctrine.

But the Supreme Court has ruled that this is a Christian Nation

This misunderstanding is based upon the Supreme Court's decision in Holy Trinity Church v. United States, issued in 1892 and written by Justice David Brewer:

These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.

The case itself involved a federal law which prohibited any company or group to prepay the transportation costs of a non-citizen coming to the United States to work for that company or organization, or indeed even encourage such people from coming here.

This was challenged by Holy Trinity Church, which had contracted with E. Walpole Warren, an Englishman, to come and be a rector for their congregation. In the decision, Brewer found that the legislation was overly broad because it applied to much more than it should have. He did not, however, base his decision on the idea that, legally and politically, the United State is a "Christian Nation."

Quite the contrary - the things he lists as indicating that this is a "Christian Nation" he specifically labels as "unofficial declarations." Brewer's point was merely that the people in this country are Christian - thus, it seemed unlikely that the legislators actually meant to prohibit churches from inviting famous and prominent religious leaders (even Jewish rabbis) from coming here and serving their congregations. Perhaps realizing his error and the possibility of misinterpretation, Justice Brewer published a book in 1905 titled The United States: A Christian Nation. In it he wrote:

But in what sense can [the United States] be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or the people are compelled in any manner to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all its citizens are either in fact or in name Christians. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within its borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all.

[...]

Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions.

His decision was not, therefore, any attempt by Brewer to argue that the laws in the United States should enforce Christianity or reflect solely Christian concerns and beliefs. He was simply making an observation which is consistent with the first two, historical interpretations above: that people in this country are Christian.

[Apple Roof Cleaning 202]

Read :)

:lgangel: :lgtear: :lgangel:

In God We Trust?

Myths About the Separation of Church and State

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Myth:

Our national motto is "In God We Trust," proving we are a Christian Nation.

Response: It is true that the phrase "In God We Trust" appears on American money and also serves as the National Motto. Is this an indication that the principle of separation is invalid and that the United State is a religious or even a Christian nation? Or is it, rather, an indication that imperfect humans have thus far failed to completely implement such separation?

Opponents to church/state separation, when the citing the above fact, imply that the former interpretation is necessarily true. They are so convinced of it, in fact, that they don't even really argue for the relationship - instead, they reference this phrase and then move right to their desired conclusion! Little or not time is spent with exploring the possibility of the latter actually being true. Even worse, they often use it as a reason for further breaches in separation.

First we must remember that the original National Motto was not "In God We Trust." The original motto was E Pluribus Unum (a Latin phrase translated as "from many, one"), created by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson in 1776. This is a wholly secular motto for the secular government they had helped establish, and this phrase can still be found on the back of the one dollar bill.

Even at the time, however, there were people who were dissatisfied with the secular nature of both the government and the motto. Resentment festered over time and found release in the late 19th century with the National Reform Movement, that era's version of the Christian Coalition. After the Civil War, this group encouraged the widespread belief that the tragedy had been a punishment from God for the nation's lack of Christianity - in particular, the government's lack of Christianity.

As a solution, the NRA proposed amending the Constitution in order to make it and the government explicitly Christian. It would have had the government acknowledge "the Lord Jesus Christ as the ruler among nations," and would have declared "his will as the supreme law of the land, in order to constitute a Christian government." This particular effort failed, but they did manage to get many members placed in all levels of government.

One of these was James Pollock, picked by President Lincoln as the tenth director of the U.S. Mint back in 1861. Pollock, who wanted the United States to become an official Christian theocracy, was able to get Congress to include in a law the phrase "...and the shape, mottoes, and devices of said coins shall be fixed by the director of the mint, with the approval of the Secretary of the Treasury;..."

Previously, Congress decided what would appear on coins - now, however, Pollock could do almost anything he wished. It was at this time that the phrase "In God We Trust" first began to appear on the nation's coins. Pollock got the idea to obtain the power to use this phrase from a Baptist minister, Mark R. Watkinson, who argued that it would "relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism." It was, then, specifically designed to promote particular religious beliefs to the detriment of other beliefs.

However, the appearance of these words was fixed to the desires of the current Mint's Director and the Secretary of the Treasury, so fundamentalist activists convinced Congress to pass a new law in 1908 which required the phrase to appear on certain coin denominations. Despite signing the law, President Theodore Roosevelt objected to this political use of the phrase, writing to William Boldly on November 11, 1907, that:

My own feeling in the matter is due to my very firm conviction that to put such a motto on coins, or to use it in any kindred manner, not only does no good but does positive harm, and is in effect irreverence, which comes dangerously close to sacrilege....It is a motto which it is indeed well to have inscribed on our great national monuments, in our temples of justice, in our legislative halls, and in building such as those at West Point and Annapolis -- in short, wherever it will tend to arouse and inspire a lofty emotion in those who look thereon. But it seems to me eminently unwise to cheapen such a motto by use on coins, just as it would be to cheapen it by use on postage stamps, or in advertisements.

The next stage occurred in 1955, when Congress passed a law requiring the phrase "In God We Trust" to appear on all currency. The following year, 1956, saw the passage of the law which changed the motto officially to "In God We Trust." Both of these actions were taken in response to the perceived threat of "godless communism." It was, in essence, an effort to promote a particular and politically charged religious vision both to the American people and to citizens of other nations.

The existence of this phrase is regularly used by fundamentalists in an effort to have the government promote their religious beliefs - completely ignoring the irony of such a religious phrase appearing on money. In 1999, for example, an Indiana school wanted to post "eleven precepts," little more than a rewriting of the Ten Commandments which included the command "Trust in God."

Supporters argued that this was a secular precept because the phrase "In God We Trust" appears on currency. For some reason, it escaped their notice that commanding people's children to trust in a god simply is not the job of the state. Not only is this a misuse of government power, but it is an insult to religion to try and claim that trusting in their God is a secular rather than a religious issue.

That this motto is an attempt to enforce a particular idea of God in American society has been admitted by those who have not been careful with their words. Stephen Hartkop, executive director of the Christian Coalition of Ohio, has said that "For them to try to remove these words [from the currency] is nothing other than an attempt to try to basically remove God from society, and I really don't think the people of this country want that."

Evidently, he and others really believe that their God is only present in American society when that presence is actively supported by the government. Churches, devout belief, and personal religious worship have no impact. But what does that say about their religion? It is for this reason that Thomas Jefferson wrote:

It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.

[4000psi 16]

Why not "IN GOD WE TRUST"?? This nation was founded on Godly principles by Godly men who had an interest in religious freedom. They came to America to worship God freely. This nation was created by Godly men who cared about family and others and God brought them through hard hard times.

If you do not believe in God then it shouldn't bother you that the word God is on anything. After all he doesn't exist...right??? I think it is interesting that its okay, until God comes in the picture then everyone wants him out. If you do not believe in God of the bible then you believe in something else. Does that something else give you the peace you need to go through everything life throws at you? "IN GOD WE TRUST" is the hope we have and the promise God gives every one who trust in Him that he will be right there to help. If you do not trust in GOD you trust in yourself. What happens when you die. Who do you rely on. NotReligion - Home

Dane

[Apple Roof Cleaning 202]

I believe in Religious Freedom Dane.

I also believe in Freedom From Religion

Not everyone believes in God, or the God of the bible.

Worship, or do not Worship, it matters not to me.

"In God We Trust" implies EVERYONE believes and trusts in God.

They Don't.

[4000psi 16]

It is true that not everyone believes. No one says anyone has to believe. That dosen't mean God does not exsist.

Dane

[Sparklean 14]

Apple: The text you posted claims the Constitution is a "godless" document.

Well, the Constitution itself may not mention "God" or "Creator," but the Declaration of Independence sure does. In fact, it mentions both "God" and "Creator."

This was drafted by Thomas Jefferson.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

[Jimmy M 14]

whether you believe in God or not does not change the fact that he exist and when we die, and it is for sure we all are. we are gonna spend eternity somewhere,whether it be heaven or hell. The choice is yours.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Apple: The text you posted claims the Constitution is a "godless" document.

Well, the Constitution itself may not mention "God" or "Creator," but the Declaration of Independence sure does. In fact, it mentions both "God" and "Creator."

This was drafted by Thomas Jefferson.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Great post adam. Thomas was ahead of his time.

I imagine he would not like many posters on the net today.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

I think religion has no place here. I never had any intention for this to stir up beliefs onchristiansor not.

Great leaders founded this wonderful place we live and modern leaders want to change things.

I dont believe religion belongs in certain places but this nation was founded for our rights to believe what we want and to speak our minds freely.

Ithink many have forgotten.