Rob R. 14 Report post Posted June 18, 2008 Are they the same just different lingo? Sorry for such newb question! I have always understand staining decks, but I often hear sealing as well and just not sure exactly what the difference is when referred to.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted June 18, 2008 We explain it as a stain being a solid or semi solid (hide the wood grain), looks most like a paint but breathes unlike a paint. Sealers are semi-transparent and allow you to see the wood, while protecting it from UV. This is how we explain it and people tend to say "oh ok" and be comfortable with it since they can understand it. Hope this helps. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 RPetry 564 Report post Posted June 18, 2008 I always thought "stain" was the actual pigment of the product while "sealer" is the property of moisture inhibition, ie: oil rejecting water penetration in wood, of the same product. Sealing out water and staining the wood with coloration, all in one product. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted June 18, 2008 (edited) The reason we explain it this way, is many products have the word "SOLID" before the word stain on the label. (look at the Cabot's line for example) This has worked like a charm for us. When we get asked the question, it typically has to do with the look, not the function. Beth Edited June 18, 2008 by Beth n Rod sp Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted June 18, 2008 If one were to get down to the literal interpretation: -Sealing is the application of an environmental barrier (this is also a function of a stain as well). -Staining is the application of a colored sealant whether it be a 'toner', 'semi-transparent' or 'solid' all relative in terms of opacity. ie; any thing that alters the natural appearance of the surface. Rod!~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 deach 14 Report post Posted June 18, 2008 If one were to get down to the literal interpretation:-Sealing is the application of an environmental barrier (this is also a function of a stain as well). -Staining is the application of a colored sealant whether it be a 'toner', 'semi-transparent' or 'solid' all relative in terms of opacity. ie; any thing that alters the natural appearance of the surface. Rod!~ Wonderful explanation, probably the best I've heard in quite some time. That's pretty much what I tell them. They seem to understand that pretty well too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Rob R. 14 Report post Posted June 18, 2008 I hate to ask "dumb" questions but I would rather know the answer.. After rods explanation thats pretty much spot on of what I assumed.. thanks rod and beth for the explanation Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 MMI Enterprises 289 Report post Posted June 18, 2008 For wood, staining is the act of applying a color or pigment at any level upto opaqueness without totally doing away with surface texture. Total opaqueness with thick film formation that covers texture is painting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted June 18, 2008 For wood, staining is the act of applying a color or pigment at any level upto opaqueness without totally doing away with surface texture. Total opaqueness with thick film formation that covers texture is painting. There are plenty of solid "stains" that cover the grain - and they are not classified as paint. Some of that - is how well they breathe. Covering the grain is not all of it.... Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 MMI Enterprises 289 Report post Posted June 18, 2008 (edited) There are plenty of solid "stains" that cover the grain - and they are not classified as paint. Some of that - is how well they breathe. Covering the grain is not all of it....Beth Might want to rethink your reply, as saying "cover the grain" can be interprited as either visually, texturely, or both. Show me a solid stain (opaque by definition) that also film forms to point of not presenting the wood texture and I'll show you a paint. In generic sense a staining has pretty much always implied a coloration within something wthout regard to a top coat. Wood is no different really in that sense than say a shirt or a slab of concrete. But do realize I meant staining as an act. Silly stain/paint manufactures can try to change things all they want and call product what they want. In the end it is either stain or it is paint. Regardless, I consider my two statements accurate. ps- Stain/paint or the act of staining/painting has never meant or stood for something that is breathable or sealed. Is but a result on ocassion depending on their makeup. Edited June 18, 2008 by MMI Enterprises Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted June 18, 2008 I'm not going to argue with you. Solid Stains for Exterior Surfaces | Cabot Go read for yourself. Solid stain covers grain. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted June 18, 2008 Have another one..... Choosing Opacity | Cabot About opacity. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted June 19, 2008 For wood, staining is the act of applying a color or pigment at any level upto opaqueness without totally doing away with surface texture. Total opaqueness with thick film formation that covers texture is painting. ***AAAAANNNNNNGGGGGGHHHHHHH*** [buzzer] Paint is a different material all-together. Paint is not permeable and does not breathe, Stains do. The only characteristic that the two share is opacity. Opacity is determined by the solid content. The higher the opacity the less one can see through it. The lower the opacity, the more one can see through it. You must be feeling contrary today. Sorry, had to point out mis-information. Le's not confuse things with what is your opinion here and not based upon fact and correct use of the term relatively. Sorry...pet peeve alert! Painting is the application of a paint. Staining is the application of a colored sealant. The terms 'Stain' & 'Paint' are not interchangeable as the two do not have the same characteristics in performance or formulation. Rod!~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 MMI Enterprises 289 Report post Posted June 19, 2008 (edited) You, Beth, and Cabot, can all go fly kites together with Cabot facts..everybody knows the reference Beth would provide was gonna be by Cabot.. lol (edit-..opp, sorry, Cabot didn't really say any facts effecting our points):) ***AAAAANNNNNNGGGGGGHHHHHHH*** WHat is this? some sort of obscure insult or a misapplied smiley?[buzzer]Paint is a different material all-together. Untrue... a stain or a paint is not defined by a perticular ingredient. Paint is not permeable and does not breathe, Stains do. Depends on what the paint or stain is made of or more recently what type of surface yer talking about. But yea paint has generally been impermeable in results. Natives painted their faces and body but I doubt they thought they would be impermeable but for the fear they instilled..:) The only characteristic that the two share is opacity. Umm er yea, that is somewhat correct..cause one shows texture and the other don't. Opacity is determined by the solid content. Untrue..is determined by the pigment content. The higher the opacity the less one can see through it. The lower the opacity, the more one can see through it. Really.. who could or would want to argue that? You must be feeling contrary today. On the contrary I am somewhat supportive of yer first post even though it partially wrong in not recognizing the historical aspect of a stain not covering over natural texture. Sorry, had to point out mis-information. Call it what ya want..I'll just call yers misinformative with a bias towards changing history. Le's not confuse things with what is your opinion here and not based upon fact and correct use of the term relatively. Never do except when it is accepted fact. Since it is all opinion, your tag team should recognize and act as such. In other words, say yours, let others say theirs. Sorry...pet peeve alert! Painting is the application of a paint. umm yea the term denotes an act in the way it is being worded. Do you have a point in saying such? Fail to see what yer pet peeve is about.. Staining is the application of a colored sealant.(by yer definition that be almost what some call a paint..lol).. I stain plenty of things without sealing them. STAINING does not have to include a sealant...and it does not usually ever include covering over a surface texture. That is of course unless you buy into manufacture definition or marketing techniques and are from your camp. The terms 'Stain' & 'Paint' are not interchangeable as the two do not have the same characteristics in performance or formulation. Missed where anyone said they were interchangeable...Hey Rod, an oil paint includes what and an oil stain includes what? neither strictly in their origins were meant to define impermiability or its absence. The solids may just happen to offer it by their main chore of coloring something. Rod!~ Oh and hey.. Marriage is between a man and a woman and let's hope that meaning don't change too. Edited June 19, 2008 by MMI Enterprises Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 MMI Enterprises 289 Report post Posted June 19, 2008 I'm not going to argue with you. Solid Stains for Exterior Surfaces | CabotGo read for yourself. Solid stain covers grain. Beth Why argue then? :).. but please do point to what ya want us to read as Cabot is not saying anything there about their solid OVT stain (which I use btw) doing away with a woods texture. Of course a solid covers grain visually.. Am talking about texture here. Or feel or 3D..ya know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 bigchaz 157 Report post Posted June 19, 2008 Or just never use an ugly solid color on a deck and we can just forget this ridiculous debate Paint is a terrible word Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted June 19, 2008 Cabot has been around since???? I'm pretty sure they would be considered a credible reference. These are a good read also: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1991/feist91a.pdf http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1998/ross98e.pdf http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1988/feist88a.pdf http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/knaeb95b.pdf Beth :cup: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted June 19, 2008 Thanks Charlie, sage words. I have said my piece. Rod!~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted June 19, 2008 More good reading... http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2004/fpl_2004_bonura001.pdf Enjoy! :) Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 RPetry 564 Report post Posted June 19, 2008 Kevin said: Oh and hey.. Marriage is between a man and a woman and let's hope that meaning don't change too. Aren't you domiciled in California? Guess what! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 MMI Enterprises 289 Report post Posted June 19, 2008 Cabot has been around since???? I'm pretty sure they would be considered a credible reference. These are a good read also: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1991/feist91a.pdf http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1998/ross98e.pdf http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1988/feist88a.pdf http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/knaeb95b.pdf Beth :cup: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1991/feist91a.pdf "Two basic types of finishes (or treatments) are used to protect wood surfaces during outdoor weathering: (a) those that form a film, layer or coating on the wood surface, and (b) those that penetrate the wood surface leaving no distinct layer or coating. Filmforming materials include paints of all descriptions, varnishes. lacquers and also overlays bonded to the wood surface. Penetrating finishes include preservatives, water repellents, pigmented semitransparent stains and chemical treatments (Banov 1973)." "Latex paints are suspensions of inorganic pigments and various latex resins in water, and form porous coatings. When pigments are added to water-repellent preservative solutions or to similar transparent wood finishes, the mixture is classified as a pigmented penetrating stain (sometimes referred to as an impregnating paint). Addition of pigment provides color and greatly increases the durability of the finish. The semitransparent pigmented penetrating stains permit much of the wood grain to show through they penetrate into the wood without forming a continuous layer." "Commercial finishes known as heavy-bodied, solid color or opaque stains are also available. but these products are essentially similar to paint because of their film-forming characteristics." ------------------------------ http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/knaeb95b.pdf "Latex paints are also more porous than oil-base paints; they can “breathe” while they shed water." "Solid-color stains also form a film. They look and act like thin paints." "Semitransparent stains penetrate the wood without forming a film, allowing much of the wood grain to show through the finish. Latex-base semitransparent stains are film-forming finishes and will not perform like true penetrating stains. Oil-base semitransparent stains allow the wood to “breathe,” so the finish doesn’t blister or peel even if the moisture content of the wood is high." Beth, thanx..your links try to prove my points well.. If we are to believe these last few goobermint info's do not contain contradiction, and I don't believe they necessarily do at all, then we are to believe both latex paint and oil based semi trans stains can breathe. We should realize though that they most likely do mean breathing at a vapor transmission level rather than solid liquid passing through... But main message that can be taken is that as the solid level of an oilborne increases the ensueing coating (mandated) results in non-breathability via thickness and what we end up with is paint. Thickness equals solids..solids equal loss of texture when a film is formed covering it-- aka PAINT. Paint will continue to mean covering visually and physically. Stain will cntinue to mean not covering physically as much as a paint. "For wood, staining is the act of applying a color or pigment at any level upto opaqueness without totally doing away with surface texture. Total opaqueness with thick film formation that covers texture is painting." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 MMI Enterprises 289 Report post Posted June 19, 2008 Kevin said:Aren't you domiciled in California? Guess what! Won't change in the minds and hearts of the majority of us out here Rick. Don't forget we voted against it. most us don't believe in the stealing of the meaning of a word...is uncool! :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted June 19, 2008 Glad you enjoyed the links. I .... don't ...like ...PAINT...on ...wood. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 MMI Enterprises 289 Report post Posted June 29, 2008 Can't say I care much for it ON wood either..got better things to put on my wood. Let's hope Rick don't mention his seafood..:) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Are they the same just different lingo? Sorry for such newb question! I have always understand staining decks, but I often hear sealing as well and just not sure exactly what the difference is when referred to..
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