Bio-Based Oil Stains? Plant Derived, Acrylic Look-Alikes...

[fireandrain 39]

I found out that the existing failed finish on that so-called acrylic strip job ( see thread if your feeling lucky) was "TimberTek UV", an 'eco-friendly' wood finish. I was curious about this funky arse finish so I contacted there customer support up in Portland,Oregon to inquire more. I have a guy in my market that is going around coating decks with this stuff and returning every year for "maintenance visits" that are NOT cheap according to these clients. I've been called in to strip and refinish two of this guys decks in the past week. Like I said, it is an 'eco-friendly' stain that is BIO-BASED WATERBOURNE. So...thats non an acrylic? Looks like it!

Here is the information that Timbertek emailed me... Im not throwing this out there to incite another thread on a new product, not really too excited about the stuff myself. Anyone with experience stripping or applying this stuff? Sure looks like an acrylic finish to me, but I guess it isnt because its waterbourne? Little confused. Want to know more about how this stuff behaves as ive been called out to 3 of these the past 2 weeks! Ok, heres the info on this stuff from an email from TimberTek...

Hello Matt,

Timber Pro is a bio based oil (plant derived) yet waterborne. It is pretty tough, though we do suggest people clean and treat their decks yearly or every other year. We recommend two coats, but Timber Pro needs to be applied to wood that is not baking in the sun or warm to the touch. That is the only stickler with our finish, more temperature sensitive then the typical flammable oil based stains. However, it is less sensitive to moisture content in the wood, so if the wood has a higher moisture content (23% or less) than our product can be applied. Most flammable oil based stains require 18% moisture or less as you know. We also make a Log & Siding Formula for log homes and homes with cedar or redwood siding. It is super popular and we sell product to Lindal Cedar Homes, and most of the top log and timber frame companies in the Pacific NW, they don't really care that it is eco-friendly, they just like it because its durable and they can clean up with water.

Okay, now you are more educated than you need to be.........

We will have a new website soon, current one is outdated but you can go to www.TimberProCoatings.com to learn more if need be.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Seen a show on products for interior painting that may be similar. I guess the idea of having no synthetic/hydrocarbon derived binders is all the rage and is part of the 'green' or 'eco friendly' movement. The interior stuff is supposedly available at major paint stores.

But far as bio based goes..to me it simply means vegitable oil based. Last I understood it such has been part of some major stains for some time. Least at some level in a blend or such as I've seen it listed in info sheets at times. If you were to take the mineral/earthen based pigments of perhaps say a product such as rs and put them in a vegitable oil you could call it 'green' and it may work just as good. If you take the right type that thickens to a solid mass or coating when moisture is gone then I suspect you get this Timbertek product. Probably more to it then that in way of refining or ingredients but you get the picture I am sure.

Edited July 23, 2008 by MMI Enterprises

[RPetry 564]

Matt,

I could very well be wrong, but to be honest, their info to you sounds suspicious. The first sentence,

Timber Pro is a bio based oil (plant derived) yet waterborne.

, does not make sense.

Linseed oil is plant derived. Stretching a point, even paraffinic oils are plant derived. It just takes millions of years, a high temperature and pressure, to naturally produce petroleum, from which paraffinic oil is a byproduct.

How can a high quality stain be both waterborne and oil based? What, you get the best of both without any penalty? Their statement,

they just like it because its durable and they can clean up with water

does not seem accurate if the product must be maintained every year.

Maybe I'm old school, but it does not sound like a stain that we would consider trying out, let alone using.

Edited July 23, 2008 by RPetry

[RPetry 564]

Matt,

You asked

Sure looks like an acrylic finish to me, but I guess it isnt because its waterbourne?

I believe that acrylics are classified as a waterborne products.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

There is a distinct difference between 'water based' and 'water borne'. The difference is in the compatibility with water. The way it was related in a brochure for Defy products is that water based products are just that, water based and the formula starts out with water as the primary carrier.

Water borne however is not the same in as much as it contains water but it is comprised of synthetic resins (acrylics in nature) but in the formulation, water is used as the solvent.

http://saversystems.com/Product%20Data%20Sheets/originalsynthetic.pdf

http://saversystems.com/Product%20Data%20Sheets/epoxy.pdf

Anything anyone else can add to this I am sure would be enlightening.

Rod!~

[fireandrain 39]

Rick, thanks for the clarification. Im not sweet on this stuff. Main concern is better understanding its characteristics so Im more prepared when I come across a deck previously stained in one of these.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Rick, word would be emulsion to encompass the use of both terms. I call it somewhat sneaky though and say if it goes into water than it waterborne. I do use some stone sealers that smell like solvent yet go right into the water..expensive stuff too.

Rod, misuse of borne versus based is rampant. There really is no just use of base. Although I explained it awhile ago on here I would suffice to say you explain it fair enough in mentioning the terms carrier and solvent. :)

Matt, acrylic is a synthetic binder of pigment or is a clear finish or sealer.

It can be in either a hydrocarbon carrier, natural oil carrier, or a water carrier. Examples are:

acrylic lacquer for concrete, interior wood finish, or car paint..

wood stain emulsions utilizing both oil and water..

or waterborne interior floor finishes..

[RPetry 564]

Rod and/or Kevin,

Whether water solvent or carrier, care to comment on how this works with an oil?

I do not get this at all.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Whether water solvent or carrier, care to comment on how this works with an oil?

I do not get this at all.

I can understand the confusion, I had it too at first.

A carrier is the suspension solution that composes the formulation. This is a fine line in some terminology which is important to understand. Water in this case forms the basis of the formula from which the other ingredients are added to.

A solvent is the ingredient which keeps the formulation in suspension. Water in this example is for the purpose of keeping the others from curing, setting up, hardening etc. but is a constituent of the ingredients to be added to the formula. In this case, an alcohol is usually the suspension solution. Since alcohols are known to evaporate quickly, the water is used to keep everything stable (hence the term 'solvent' ) until applied to the surface intended instead of the surprise of opening up a container to find everything in it unusable.

With an oil, you have opened up another can or worms entirely. Water and oil don't mix readily but with a certain combination of ingredients you develop an equilibrium in which the two can coexist without the ill effects they can have with one another such as separation and oil sheen.

Admittedly, at this point, my knowledge becomes stretched as I am not a chemist. But I hope I have done enough to thoroughly confuse you to the point of reaching for another Heineken and sitting back to contemplate the meaning of life instead.

:cheers:

Rod!~

Edited July 23, 2008 by Beth n Rod
additional confundulations

[plainpainter 217]

Rick one way manufacturers get oil and water to mix is they add a surfactant to the mix. One end of a surfactant is hydrophobic and the other is hydrophillic - this property enables water and oil to mix - just clean your greasy dishes and you have seen this effect first hand. The other way which I don't understand too well is that they have simply engineered some alkyd molecules that accepts water as it's 'solvent'. If you go back far enough back in time - latex/acrylic binders didn't work with water at all. The first latexes had mineral spirits for the first generation of products. Only after much engineering and re-engineering did latex finally find home in water. But it's been this way since the 50's - so naturally our intuition has been that latex and water mix - but it wasn't always that way.

You may be asking how come they didn't do the same for oils? Well most manufactueres for the last 30 years havent invested any company resources into the manufacture of oil based products - latex is suppose to replace oils, right? It's only recently that companies see that there are certain properties that just can't be easily duplicated with latexes - and the technology is there to make oil based paints waterbourne. I am seeing more and more paint companies re-introduce oil based trim paints again in the face of ever tightening VOC laws. Oils are here to stay whether or not it's spirits or water in the can. It wasn't too long ago - that you could only use turpentine for oil based paints - there too an alkyd had to be manufactured that would accept mineral spirits in addition to turpentine.

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

You stated:

Admittedly, at this point, my knowledge becomes stretched as I am not a chemist. But I hope I have done enough to thoroughly confuse you to the point of reaching for another Heineken and sitting back to contemplate the meaning of life instead.

:cheers:

Hah! The meaning of life has become much more clear lately. Something like "grow old gracefully"! Hard to do, but trying. Greenies are not a problem. A case and a half in the beer fridge at the moment. Gotta' grab one, be back in a moment...

Ah, better. Your explanation of carrier and solvent is very good and even understandable to those of us chemistry impaired. But solvents have another purpose, that is to facilitate the stain resins and pigments to penetrate into the wood. Another thread here today discusses just that. Regular RS and redwood only RS differences in "old growth" redwood tannins appearing on the surface of the wood. The difference, as I understand it, is in the solvents of the two products.

And this bipolar mixing of oil and water based, or oil and water carrier exterior stains for wood does not seem right. Does not feel right. And sounds like a crock to me.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

Thank you. Another fine exposition on the history of coatings. To be honest, I do not understand a lot of this, and choose to remain an idiot.

I do know that if we are forced at some point not to use an oil based (without water solvents or carriers) stain on exterior wood, I will close up shop. Gettin' close to retirement anyway!

[YVPW 20]

I haven't used it on a deck but Sansin stains are waterbased alkyd and apply the smoothest with a brush of any stain I've ever applied. I'm looking to use there products on new wood. I believe Wood Sentry is similar.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Rick, Oil and water thing perhaps discussed best on following thread between posts #7-30. Note the Bancroft link. http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/wood-cleaning-restoration-decks-fences-etc/12600-here-comes-technology.html

[fireandrain 39]

To be honest, I do not understand a lot of this, and choose to remain an idiot.

LOL, as usual another mind-numbingly brilliant expose on the tools of the trade! I love it! And I don't understand a word of it.

[fireandrain 39]

Admittedly, at this point, my knowledge becomes stretched as I am not a chemist.

You could of fooled me,Rod! Well done. Its posts like this that assure me that I still have alot to learn.

[RPetry 564]

Rick, Oil and water thing perhaps discussed best on following thread between posts #7-30. Note the Bancroft link. http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/wood-cleaning-restoration-decks-fences-etc/12600-here-comes-technology.html

Kevin, Daniel, and Rod,

Thanks for the links, the technical info is interesting.

But my fundamental question pertains to exterior wood stain products. Aside from VOC compliance restrictions due to solvents, why would any manufacturer produce a hybrid, ie: water and oil, stain?

I do not see any benefit, just possible downside, to the wood contractor and retail customer.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Kevin, Daniel, and Rod,

Thanks for the links, the technical info is interesting.

But my fundamental question pertains to exterior wood stain products. Aside from VOC compliance restrictions due to solvents, why would any manufacturer produce a hybrid, ie: water and oil, stain?

I do not see any benefit, just possible downside, to the wood contractor and retail customer.

No other reason I can see....

and...

I agree.

Beth :cup:

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

And this bipolar mixing of oil and water based, or oil and water carrier exterior stains for wood does not seem right. Does not feel right. And sounds like a crock to me.

Believe it or not, most of it is done for the sole purpose of lowering the VOC content.

Rod!~

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Also, I haven't seen enough ease of cleanup with these exterior combo products to allow them to claim that reason. Being less smelly may be valid but that is along lines of the VOC reason.

ps- maybe things of storage and manufacture safety is involved too. When I visit manufacture they showed me the stringent safety mechanisms and rooms they use to store coatings in. The rooms can be locked down or flooded or some such. Felt like checking out a nuclear facility... must be expensive :)

Edited July 24, 2008 by MMI Enterprises

[RPetry 564]

Believe it or not, most of it is done for the sole purpose of lowering the VOC content.

Rod!~

Rod,

I believe it. A pig is still a pig until proven otherwise. Slick "green" marketing of a questionable product. Some of these nonsense exterior stain marketers are no better than "lose weight fast with our diet" charlatans on midnight TV.

The sad thing is, both may be great money makers.