Sealing all sides of deck boards?

[Dublin 14]

Hiya Folks,

As a guy whose primary hobby is building furniture, I know the importance of finishing all sides of wood whether seen or not, to help avoid unwanted wood movement. The theory is if all sides are finished the same, you won't be encouraging cupping, warping, etc....Some may be inevitable obviously but it does help to minimize it. So do you folks apply your sealers with this in mind? Reason I ask is I'm planning to use Ipe on my deck (not installed yet) and I've read that Ipe is best finished by letting it weather a while before sealing. So, you can see where this is going.....will it buy me anything by getting the boards and leaving them un-installed for a while and then finishing all sides before install? I really won't be able to access the bottom of the deck once everything is installed so getting the underside/edges sealed would probably only happen on the initial sealing. Any thoughts?

Thanks much,

jlc

[plainpainter 217]

Don't worry about sealing all sides - it's a myth in my opinion. Companies like Sikkens endorsed that idea with their dek products - because they were so prone to peeling - they needed every edge they could get. Problem is - if you don't take perfect care of the exposed surface - once water/moisutre gets into the wood - it has no where to escape now, and it really gets bad. Sounded like a good idea at the time.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

...if you install Sikkens DEK - you MUST seal all sides.....according to Sikkens.

Beth

[Tegrey 121]

jlc,

If you have the opportunity to weather wood before installation & staining it will certainly last longer. I'd check with the supplier of the IPE before you do anything to it. It is an exotic wood and needs to be treated differently.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

The unwanted movement/dimensional changes you mention are more about the amounts of water infiltration and the varying speeds at which it leaves the wood due to temp and exposure. If one part (say the top exposed area) gets naturally water logged in compare to other parts it swells and causes stress between the two areas and causes damage. But now by nature of gravity the underneith never sees a huge enough difference compared to the top as long as the top is sealed with suitable product. The water just sheads off and never has chance to overwhelm the situation. Many seals allow some amount of vapor transmission/evap through it's being which is different than staight water easily passing through. Others can create too much of a trapping effect though that will cause delamination of the coating or end you with rot. Situation there apparently is that their transmission speed is not at all suitable in dealing with getting rid of even a slight bit of trapped water nor adjacent water. See water will want to leave in any and all directions if it can. Yes it leaves straight up eventually and mostly but the effect of sideways/adjacent evap can still be observed. Watch a board flush with a sealed surface such as a building. It stays wet longer. Ever see the sun come out on a water logged deck?. It can be like a steam bath with vapor coming straight up. Slow that down with a bad choice in stain or coating and you get problems. The goal of using such product in first place is to prevent that water logged situation if coated all over but like Dan pointed out it will happen by the very nature that products don't last forever and do eventually fail. ...

sorry rambling..

Use a paraffinic penetrating oil, if anything, if your bound to preseal.

[James 625]

It's a waste of time and effort and product with Ipe.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

In other words...Is full of natural goodies to where it won't hold stain but more than a year or so the first couple stainings anywho. Is more of a cosmetic thing with that wood.

[Dublin 14]

Thanks folks for the inputs. I think I have a plan for sealing/staining this deck now and will post that for opinions under a separate thread.

Cheers,

jlc

[MMI Enterprises 289]

no need fer that..but if so inclined.. :)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Hiya Folks,

As a guy whose primary hobby is building furniture, I know the importance of finishing all sides of wood whether seen or not, to help avoid unwanted wood movement. The theory is if all sides are finished the same, you won't be encouraging cupping, warping, etc....Some may be inevitable obviously but it does help to minimize it. So do you folks apply your sealers with this in mind? Reason I ask is I'm planning to use Ipe on my deck (not installed yet) and I've read that Ipe is best finished by letting it weather a while before sealing. So, you can see where this is going.....will it buy me anything by getting the boards and leaving them un-installed for a while and then finishing all sides before install? I really won't be able to access the bottom of the deck once everything is installed so getting the underside/edges sealed would probably only happen on the initial sealing. Any thoughts?

Thanks much,

jlc

When it comes to Ipe' your one best sealing point is the end grain. Use Anchor seal to seal ALL end cuts. This is the part where Ipe' is most vulnerable to moisture loss or intrusion which leads to dimensional changes.

Sealing all 6 sides is indeed a good practice especially if you are building the deck with little or no clearance below it. Reason being is moisture obviously but also to help protect it from excessive dimensional changes as the weather goes from wet to dry conditions over a prolonged period which is the demise of finishes in general.

Other than that is the problem one will face when it comes time to perform maintenance once the structure is completely assembled and those sides which may be compromised by the chemicals is no longer accessible. Sealing all the sides is a one shot deal and from then on is only as good as you can get to in the future.

In regard to your question of will it buy you anything to let all the boards weather is a difficult prospect to predict as one would have to turn the boards on a regular basis to get all the sides to weather effectively.

No need to make things any more difficult than they already are...Save yourself the delay and grief; apply a clear sealant to the underside upon installation and let the top side weather for a few months, wash and seal as desired.

Rod!~

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Hey end grain was on my mind but forgot to mention..thanx Rod! Good example of why many inputs are a good thing. Saves grief.

So Amen to both end grain sealing and the clear sealing point. Do it clear underneith and no worries of mismatch or looking funky during any weathering phaze you may wish to undergo.

[James 625]

If your going to go through all this unnecessary grief for(IPE) buy pre- sealed ! Sealers on the underside attract MOLD.

[Dublin 14]

Thanks folks. The deck is indeed lower to ground than some I'm sure. It ranges from 18" above ground to about 36" above ground.

I haven't seen pre-sealed Ipe online yet but may look into that. As well, I've been using AnchorSeal on all my end cuts for my framing to date so I have plenty left for the ends of the Ipe.

And James, why do you not like Ipe? Just curious. I agree it's probably "unnnecessary" as I could just throw down something like Redwood but then I'd be replacing it in a few years where with Ipe, I don't think I'll have to worry about replacement (for as long as I'm alive anyway).

Cheers,

cc

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Thanks folks. The deck is indeed lower to ground than some I'm sure. It ranges from 18" above ground to about 36" above ground.

I haven't seen pre-sealed Ipe online yet but may look into that. As well, I've been using AnchorSeal on all my end cuts for my framing to date so I have plenty left for the ends of the Ipe.

And James, why do you not like Ipe? Just curious. I agree it's probably "unnnecessary" as I could just throw down something like Redwood but then I'd be replacing it in a few years where with Ipe, I don't think I'll have to worry about replacement (for as long as I'm alive anyway).

Cheers,

cc

If it is that low to the ground, anything forming a film is completely out of the question. Be prepared to care for it annually if the look is important to you, if it is not covered like a porch....

You purchased a very dense long lasting wood, it will outlast the logs on your home. But the trade off is finishes....well, they just don't perform due to a lack of porosity.

Beth

[plainpainter 217]

I think your best bet with ipe or any wood that lacks porosity is to find a stain that will 'stick' vs. penetrate. Some of the stains we use here are designed to not fully cure - the gooey part being in the pores. I think the best bet is to find a stain that 'through' cures so it is enamel hard and has the ability to stick without penetrating. Austrailian timber oil was one such stain before the VOC laws changed here in the states. Changes in formula have seemed to all resulted in 'softer' formulations that wear faster.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I think your best bet with ipe or any wood that lacks porosity is to find a stain that will 'stick' vs. penetrate. Some of the stains we use here are designed to not fully cure - the gooey part being in the pores. I think the best bet is to find a stain that 'through' cures so it is enamel hard and has the ability to stick without penetrating. Austrailian timber oil was one such stain before the VOC laws changed here in the states. Changes in formula have seemed to all resulted in 'softer' formulations that wear faster.

It comes to the same really, since a lack of porosity means a coating will not adhere well, nor will it penetrate well. It is far too dense a species. Sure you can apply a film like Sikkens but when it fails it fails like a champ and is costly and time consuming to fix. You can apply a penetrating oil, but it will not have the same life as it would on say PT wood. But you just can't beat the look and durability of the wood. We can't base it on what is no longer for sale post-VOC law changes or what will soon go away...what has he got as an option in his state today, and what will be an option in future years...and how green does he want to be....

Beth

[plainpainter 217]

Beth - I think waterbourne type finishes epoxy type finishes that are designed to 'powder' off will be the stain to use in the future on hardwoods. I know chemists that are working on acrylic type formulations that will be designed to breakdown like this vs. peeling. I guess we'll have to re-learn many aspects of woodcare in the future. I know when I use latex based primers on plaster surfaces that have no porosity - they are designed to make use of chemistry to 'stick' without being able to absorb into the substrate. A gecko climbing a wall demonstrates this ability of sticking vs. penetration. The problem with a sikkens like product is that the resins aren't really 'sticking' that well - I know with older based oil paints - the film would crack i.e. 'alligatoring' before it would peel to relieve the stresses caused by the movement of the substrate.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I'll believe it, when I see it. Today - there is not a product worth a spit that will do what many did prior to 2005. What is in the future doesn't get the deck sealed today.

I have also NEVER been a fan of acrylics on horizontal surfaces....

Beth

[plainpainter 217]

Yeah - there is nothing right now that works. But I've seen so many advances in latex paints over the years that I believe one day something will work well. A waterbourne stain however will perhaps never 'nourish' a wood. But there are products like Cretowood that will petrify wood. But I guess this is all going way off topic.

[James 625]

I take care of some Ipe that is close to 20 years old , 16 ft length's (1 by 3) and directly on the surface. Most excellent condition and I do not treat it anymore! I take care of a Redwood deck that it 40 years old and has never been treated and in good condition (2 by 8) OLD GROWTH ! For longevity use smaller width boards and have good spacing for air flow and drainage. I also cleaned a deck over 20 years old PT done with 2 by 4's never treated. The 2 inch side is the floor and he sands it ever couple of years. It was nasty between the boards.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Making something that'll last on flexable surface prone to water exposure and UV isn't a tough one. If you take those aspect indivually required they already got'em beat but then we got to throw in the darn foot traffic issue and then the porosity of ipe...shucks what a manufacture to do?

The example of how Armstrong is supposed to be working is theoretically the way to tackle the issues. Via specific gravity seperating the individual parts/aspects of a product the idea is they able to get colorful/nourturing stuffs inside while providing a suitable exterior film/coating able to handle the many things required of it such as durability,slip resistance, chem resistance, vapor transmission,etc. without feeding mold or being a dirt attractant. Don't know if that perticular product has been done on ipe yet..just saying that's the idea for tackling wood in general.

I've mentioned before how solution for new voc rules will come from the flooring or concrete surfacing trades and still feel the same. Yes it is uniquely different with the surfaces not being flexable but yet many the other issues are regularly being delt with..I also think that is likely where the money and research for coatings is more structured and at play.

Got water problems? .. densify or create chemical vapor barrier situation inside the surface.

Got penetration of color problems?.. you open it up more or use a smaller particle of color...aka 'dye' which actually is disolved color that solidifies into particle of whatever size.

Got dye being uv unstable problems?..focus on clear uv protection being in the wear/protection layer by way of utilizing specific gravity.

Got durability problems? ...focus on properly cross linked polymers, fortification with softer yet more durable and chemical resistant additives such as urethane yet enstill proper balance for the vapor trasmission and removability.

Got trust in film/coating issues?.. focus on densifying/petrification following the coloring process. Look to polished concrete in yer HD or bluebox stores.

Providing all this together in a mixed product may be impossable right now but individually their are products out there on shelves that can do each chore. In small demand some them are rather expensive but perhaps once part of everyday use the costs will come down. I see it that if anything exterior wood care may have to move towards multi processes when it comes to finishing just like the prep part or like fine furniture or auto painters, etc.

Doing the epoxy or a hardened/catylized film isn't likely best route. Such processes create what is called permenance against easy removal and isn't friendly to vapor transmission. So again it's gonna be about higher technology in the waterbornes or fortification and yes it will likely involve what many us term as acrylics. For those that don't like the word just change it. I mean thats what they do to everything else right?. No but really you can use acrylic without attributing all the poor aspects to it. It doesn't have to be thick and glossy..it can be flattened, soft, hard, etc. due to other additives. The polymer technology departs so far from it these days ya can't even really classify it the same as nail polish or concrete lacquer.

The guys going to world of concrete will see such products and should be able to confirm how solving would care issues will be by way of products and processes coming out of that field. I'd term the stuff they coming up with as transitional products that we may want to try out on at least ipe.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

I take care of some Ipe that is close to 20 years old , 16 ft length's (1 by 3) and directly on the surface. Most excellent condition and I do not treat it anymore! I take care of a Redwood deck that it 40 years old and has never been treated and in good condition (2 by 8) OLD GROWTH ! For longevity use smaller width boards and have good spacing for air flow and drainage. I also cleaned a deck over 20 years old PT done with 2 by 4's never treated. The 2 inch side is the floor and he sands it ever couple of years. It was nasty between the boards.

Looked at a monster of a deck/pergola yesterday that was 30 year old redwood coated with solid.. Was rather latexy, no chalkyness..was a tad different and not sure what coating it was..regardless it is rotting all to hell and needs 50% or better reskinned. Fun times..

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Looked at a monster of a deck/pergola yesterday that was 30 year old redwood coated with solid.. Was rather latexy, no chalkyness..was a tad different and not sure what coating it was..regardless it is rotting all to hell and needs 50% or better reskinned. Fun times..

:lol: ...not surprised at all!...:lol:

Git 'er dun!

Beth