x-jet help

[eric 14]

When using the x-jet, what is the best bucket to use for chems/detergent? Also , what size hose & how long should it be?

thanks

[PLD 14]

I use a 5 gallon bucket with a lid on it... I mix up my chems triple strength and use a proportioner. One bucket does a whole whose easily.

Have you had any problems with 12% and "soaps" interacting badly? I have seriously considered this myself (hence why I'm re-reading this thread), but have noticed that some chems that mix well with 3-6% react "funny" when mixed with 12%. Several soaps (including the one I use now) makes the mix overly warm when mixed with 12%

[Mike Williamson 198]

Have you had any problems with 12% and "soaps" interacting badly? I have seriously considered this myself (hence why I'm re-reading this thread), but have noticed that some chems that mix well with 3-6% react "funny" when mixed with 12%. Several soaps (including the one I use now) makes the mix overly warm when mixed with 12%

I had similar experiences when using espec's d-Limonene based cleaner. I didn't like the soap for several reasons, and stopped using it. I found you DON'T pour this stuff straight into a bucket of 10.5%...had a full bucket boil over, and boil to the point where it was almost empty, right behind me.

I haven't had anything like this using Steve's citracleen, even mixing with straight 10.5%.

[PLD 14]

Mike, You've been pretty outspoken about downstreaming. What types of ratio's are you getting from your downstreamer? Does it draw at HP? More specifically, will it draw with the xjet as the orifice?

I'm at the point with carting 15gal buckets that I either want to go back to downstreaming or switch to concentrated chems with proportioners. If the former, I want to be able to shoot 30+ ft like an xjet. If the latter, I need a new soap forumlation that is stable in 12.5%.

[Mike Williamson 198]

Mike, You've been pretty outspoken about downstreaming. What types of ratio's are you getting from your downstreamer? Does it draw at HP? More specifically, will it draw with the xjet as the orifice?

Haven't measured the ratio...It gets stuff clean with no more time or pressure rinsing than I used with the Xjet. Of course it doesn't draw at HP, nor does the Xjet. And why would i use the Xjet as an orifice to downstream with???

I'm at the point with carting 15gal buckets that I either want to go back to downstreaming or switch to concentrated chems with proportioners. If the former, I want to be able to shoot 30+ ft like an xjet. If the latter, I need a new soap forumlation that is stable in 12.5%.

For shooting 30', I just use a size 40 zero degree tip. Works just fine. For most of my stuff, I just use a 2530 or 2540 tip for soaping.

I got mine from Mel (PWKid here) at vero under pressure. www.verounderpressure.com

Celeste got hers from someone else, likely a very similar or identical product.

[PLD 14]

Haven't measured the ratio...It gets stuff clean with no more time or pressure rinsing than I used with the Xjet.

As far as the ratios, you know what "it" (your mix) is. In my case, I would need to know the mix ratio to forumlate a concentrate to suit my needs.

Of course it doesn't draw at HP, nor does the Xjet. And why would i use the Xjet as an orifice to downstream with???

For shooting 30', I just use a size 40 zero degree tip. Works just fine. For most of my stuff, I just use a 2530 or 2540 tip for soaping.

I should have said nozzle instead of orifice. xjet = 00040 = "shooter" tip. But now I'm confused. If you cannot draw at HP (normal), how are you using a 00040 tip to soap up?

[PLD 14]

I got mine from Mel (PWKid here) at vero under pressure. www.verounderpressure.com

PWKid,

If you're listening, post some info about the wonder downstreamer Mike is so impressed with. I found no links/info on your site.

[Don Phelps 85]

PWKid,

If you're listening, post some info about the wonder downstreamer Mike is so impressed with. I found no links/info on your site.

It's a downstreamer like most others, but stainless steel rather than the crap that most vendors sell. We purchased one from him too.

[Mike Williamson 198]

As far as the ratios, you know what "it" (your mix) is. In my case, I would need to know the mix ratio to forumlate a concentrate to suit my needs.

4.5 gallons of 10.5% and 1/2 gallon of citracleen. Run through the downstreamer until the bucket is empty. Refill bucket. :)

I should have said nozzle instead of orifice. xjet = 00040 = "shooter" tip. But now I'm confused. If you cannot draw at HP (normal), how are you using a 00040 tip to soap up?

Simple...a 0040 tip is much larger than, say, a 0006 tip, so my pressure is much much lower...low enough to allow the downstreamer to draw. It draws with a size 40 tip just fine. I get a little draw with a size 20 tip, but not enough.

There are plenty of ways to get water 30'+ in the air and keep the downstreamer drawing. Shoot, stick a 1/8" hosebarb in a 1/4 male plug and use that.

[Mike Williamson 198]

It's a downstreamer like most others, but stainless steel rather than the crap that most vendors sell. We purchased one from him too.

Ditto...though all downstreamers don't draw the same. Some are better than others, this one works well, and as Don said, is SS so the chlorine doesn't destroy it. If mine broke tomorrow, I'd buy another one Thursday morning.

[PWkid 79]

Most of the time the oriface is what wears out.Its nothing magical like Mike and Don said its a regular chemical injector s.s. Thats why Its not on my website.I didn't reinvent the wheel.It makes life easier than using other methods (x-jet).

[PLD 14]

What is the range of mix ratios it supports?

I do like the idea of a downstreamer. Lugging 15gal pails is a hassle and space for two empties and two handcarts is precious real estate wasted.

However, one of my big issues with a downstreamer is not knowing how to translate "1/2 open" or "1/3 open" to a given mix ratio. Hence, to me it seems that downstreamer chem mixture is more guesswork than science. With the x-jet I know that 5.5gpm = 1:2 and 5.5gpm + beige proportioner = 1:16.

The other issue I had with a downstreamer is that most only support 1:20 or 1:10 at best. There are occasions where 1:8 or even 1:3 are useful. Gutter cleaners is one application for 1:3 that comes to mind.

[PWkid 79]

All I know is downstreamer= house cleaned (with the right tips) without all the b/s that an x-jet offers.I am just a pressure cleaner who gets results.I have a lot of common sense but when it comes to ratios I'm lost. I KNOW WHAT WORKS. It comes from the school of hard knocks.

[PWkid 79]

All I know is downstreamer= house cleaned (with the right tips) without all the b/s that an x-jet offers.I am just a pressure cleaner who gets results.I have a lot of common sense but when it comes to ratios I'm lost. I KNOW WHAT WORKS. It comes from the school of hard knocks.

[PWkid 79]

wow that was weird it came through twice.

[Mike Williamson 198]

wow that was weird it came through twice.

I think you used the beige proportioner rather than the pink, and got a higher ratio of posts than you intended. Better be careful and rinse the plants a bit more this time. :eek:

The first thing I did with both Xjets I've purchased is toss the little baggie of proportioners in the garbage. I just don't have time to worry about that crap. If I want a weaker mix, I add more water. If I want a stronger mix, I add less water. I mean, we're washing houses here, not spraying acid on trucks or brick or something where the ratio really needs to be adjusted depending on what you're washing. So what if the chlorine is a bit stronger than it needs to be for a particular wash...as long as I rinse the way I should, everything is fine.

Some folks seem to like to make things way more complicated than they need to be.

[Mike Williamson 198]

Hence, to me it seems that downstreamer chem mixture is more guesswork than science. With the x-jet I know that 5.5gpm = 1:2 and 5.5gpm + beige proportioner = 1:16.

I promise you I'm getting way more than 1:20 or 1:10. More like 1:4, though I haven't checked it. I know I drain a 5 1/2 gallon bucket pretty dang quick, just about as fast as I did with the Xjet.

Also, the Xjet with a 5.5 isn't 1:2. That's what you get with a 5gpm machine. 5.5gpm will give you a 1:2.2 ratio. The Xjet draws at a steady 2.5gpm, regardless of the machine size (with no proportioners).

[Henry B. 4]

Hey Mike

There is one thing though about using an x jet without a proportioner. You can vary the amount of water to change the strength of your mix but..... You have to carry that sucker around all the time. I use proportioners with 5 gallons of strait house wash.. no water at all. So I can carry one bucket around the house and do the entire thing. Sometimes I can use the same bucket for two houses... I'm using the same amount of chem you are but carrying around less weight and wasting less time mixing chemicals.

Give the proportioners a shot, your might change your mind!

[PLD 14]

Also, the Xjet with a 5.5 isn't 1:2. That's what you get with a 5gpm machine. 5.5gpm will give you a 1:2.2 ratio. The Xjet draws at a steady 2.5gpm, regardless of the machine size (with no proportioners).

That's good info. Can you shed some light on the #13 orifice vs the #9. I've heard different info from two reuptable suppliers. One says select based on pressure as directed by xterior and ignore volume. The other says #9 = 4gpm, #13 = 5.5gpm. I ask because that may be affecting my ratios as well. Particularly if 2.5gpm draw is tied to orifice size and not flow.

[Mike Williamson 198]

That's good info. Can you shed some light on the #13 orifice vs the #9. I've heard different info from two reuptable suppliers. One says select based on pressure as directed by xterior and ignore volume. The other says #9 = 4gpm, #13 = 5.5gpm. I ask because that may be affecting my ratios as well. Particularly if 2.5gpm draw is tied to orifice size and not flow.

I've always heard it is based on flow. That makes more sense, since the pressure is dependant upon the flow and the orifice size...I would imagine the Xjet needs to operate at a particular pressure range in order to be effective.

[Mike Williamson 198]

Hey Mike

There is one thing though about using an x jet without a proportioner. You can vary the amount of water to change the strength of your mix but..... You have to carry that sucker around all the time. I use proportioners with 5 gallons of strait house wash.. no water at all. So I can carry one bucket around the house and do the entire thing. Sometimes I can use the same bucket for two houses... I'm using the same amount of chem you are but carrying around less weight and wasting less time mixing chemicals.

Give the proportioners a shot, your might change your mind!

Well, as I've stated here and elsewhere several times, I tossed the Xjet in the same trash can as the proportioners (well, not really) and went with a downstreamer. Now I'm not dragging buckets at all, and get the same quality results.

[PLD 14]

Later: I've always heard it [draw] is based on flow.

Earlier: The Xjet draws at a steady 2.5gpm, regardless of the machine size.

Mike I'm not trying to bust your chops or anything, but this thread is an excellent example why I asked (in a different thread) for people to contact xterior and ask their engineer to drop in here for a session. Everyone (myself) seems to have a differing opinions about xjet flow/draw rates, what affects draw rate, etc. I've even gotten differing opinions from different employees at my distrib and at xterior cust svc.

Some time with the engineer would be invaluable. If you use an xjet please contact xterior (800-983-7467) and ask them to have their engineer drop in.

[Mike Williamson 198]

Mike I'm not trying to bust your chops or anything, but this thread is an excellent example why I asked (in a different thread) for people to contact xterior and ask their engineer to drop in here for a session. Everyone (myself) seems to have a differing opinions about xjet flow/draw rates, what affects draw rate, etc. I've even gotten differing opinions from different employees at my distrib and at xterior cust svc.

Some time with the engineer would be invaluable. If you use an xjet please contact xterior (800-983-7467) and ask them to have their engineer drop in.

That would be nice.

Based on their proportioner chart, it draws 2.5gpm wide open. That is, of course, if it is sized correctly for your machine. My assumption is that it has a range of pressure within which it works. For someone to say you have to ignore volume is silly. It is the combination of the volume and the orifice size that determines pressure. If you have a 3000psi machine, that simply means it is built to run at a maximum of 3000psi, not that it puts out 3000psi. It simply puts out whatever volume of water it is designed to put out. You control the pressure by limiting the opening through which that volume of water passes.(which I'm sure you realize). I've seen machines that were 3.5 gpm at 3000 psi, and machines that were 5gpm and 3000 psi. If you based the orifice size strictly on rated psi, you'd be using the same orifice (say a #9) on both the 3.5gpm and the 5gpm. The problem with that is that the 3.5gpm machine will be producing close to 600 psi through the size 9 orifice, while the 5gpm machine will be producing 1250psi through the size 9 orifice. It becomes clear why a 5.5gpm machine needs a larger orifice to operate correctly. With a size 13 orifice, the 5gpm machine is putting out close to 600psi, the same as the 3.5gpm machine with a #9.

All that to show that the orifice fitting in the Xjet is designed to regulate the pressure coming through the Xjet, allowing it to function properly. Larger gpm, larger orifice.

[RyanH 14]

Maybe this can help to clear up some confusion about how the Xjet works.....

The xjet is nothing more than a fancy looking siphon. Anytime you have a fluid flowing it creates a low pressure area along the axis perpindicular to flow at the fluid surface. The Xjet takes advantage of this fluid property by mounting a tube perpindicular to the flow of the water. At the chemical side of the tube, the pressure is whatever atmospheric pressure happens to be. On the water side, the perssure is significantly lower due to the flowing water. Because of the pressure difference, the air/chemical will move towards the water side and get mixed in with the water and come out as your cleaner.

The pressure difference and the orifice size of the chem inlet as well as the length of tubing, type of tubing, and viscosity of chemical all affect the draw. Because the pressure difference is directly related to the flow rate of the water in your line, it is the flowrate output of the machine that determines the ultimate ratio of the Xjet. Mike says 5.5 gpm will equate to a 1:2.2 draw on an unobstructed tube; that may very well be the case (haven't verified as such), but is only valid if there are no proportioners. The proportioner just decreased the orifice size and thus increases the resistance to flow (pressure drop) and the flow rate through the chem port decreases (thus decreasing the chem:water ratio). There is an equation relating these that makes it pretty easy to see (and predict) what happens with different size proportioners, but I don't want Phelps to suffer any more uneccessary eye strain from those wacky symbols :rolleyes2 . But alas, anyone who has used the Xjet for any period of time has pretty much figured out that its easier to just vary your unitial concentration and not fumble with the tiny proportioners, especially when they are covered in bleach when swapping them out, and that aint fun on fingers.

[seymore 90]

You da man Ryan!:lgbow: :lgbow:

[acidburn 14]

But alas, anyone who has used the Xjet for any period of time has pretty much figured out that its easier to just vary your unitial concentration and not fumble with the tiny proportioners, especially when they are covered in bleach when swapping them out, and that aint fun on fingers.

True. It doesn't take long @ 100 degrees outside for those darn little things to really **** you off!! I "lost" mine LONG ago....somewhere on I-95....LOL.