reed 500 Report post Posted July 10, 2004 This is a heads up to those whom have to deal with uneducated decks builders. By uneducated I mean in refernce to the way deck, new and old are cleaned. I recently, 2 months ago, cleaned a new construction cedar deck. I did a test spot of approx. 4sf of the floor where the grill will cover. I determined that it was not needed on the rest of the deck. So I did an oxalic bath and light pressure rinse. My problem started there. I should have left the oxalic on it to put up a barrier to tannin. I let the deck dry to a reading of 8 to 10 percent, depending on the piece I check with the calibrated J-Lite meter. 3 weeks later the tanning had returned so I did a light was with oxalic again and lightly removed the surface layer of RS. Tannin disappeard and was letting the deck dry. Now in the meantime, this deck is 5 months old, knots started falling out left and right. My assesment is that the quality of wood was not good, probably grade 3 when he promised 1 and 2. Grade 1 cedar is clear, NO knots, this is usually a special order type wood. The deck builder in order not to honor his warranty and eat the labor to replace 10 boards pointed the finger at the chemical wash process. How ridiculous. Even I after I showed him the US Forestry literature that oxalic, citralic, and Oxygen based cleaners have no effect on density, lignin, and bonding adherences of knots and wood strength, he still is determined to blame the chemicals. The deck boards that I did the test spot using efc38 have ALL the knots intact. Imagine that. The latest saga is that the salesman for the deck builder is going to contact an agent with the local forestry service to come out and assess the wood grade. I hope the agent knows the latest science of wood cleaning and milling cedar. The builder even tried to get me to pay half the cost of board replacement. What a joke. My half of the bargain is to get the deck rewashed and restained period. But he has to satisfy the homeowner as to why the baords didn't last. I'll keep you posted as to the ongoing saga. Any comments? Reed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
James 625 Report post Posted July 10, 2004 Just get the lumber company out there! Whats the name of the sub division Knotslanding? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reed 500 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 Out of 40+ views, no one wants to make a comment other than Jim? Jim, should be knots landing. The deck was built in March. No telling where the lumber came from and it could have been milled as far back as November. Reed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EmpirePW 14 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 Stop me if you've heard this one. A little boy asks his dad "What are those things in the wood on the deck dad and why are they there?" the dad looks and replies "Well son when that wood was a tree those things used to be branches but now they're knot." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mtnframer 14 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 reed sounds like #3 grade lumber,with the price of lumber,he was cutting corners to save a buck,as for you helping pay for half of the cost of replacement,you got to kidding Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reed 500 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 That's what he wanted. What a joke. The latest is now he wants a forestry rep out to look. I say, Bring it on. Will only prove my point that the grade of lumber was not what he promised the homeowner. Plus, he has no idea when the wood was cut, milled and/or how long it sat in the lumber yard. The deck was built in late March. That wood could have been cut as long as November 03. reed I'll keep ya'll posted on the saga. So far haven't heard a word from the guy since last Thursday Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Russell Cissell 65 Report post Posted July 13, 2004 Reed- In talking with the contractor who built the deck last week (or was it the week before?) he told me Quote: ". . and the guys told me the wood was so wet there was water running out when they would run in a screw" It stands to reason that the wood would go through periods of dimensional instability as it dried over those several months. You have absolutely nothing to worry about. To all who read this thread This is an obvious attempt by the Building Contractor to avoid taking responsibility for his sub standard work. If you find yourself in a similar situation stand firm on your professional merit. It is all to easy to let a situation like this suck you into hours of uncompensated time. After your initial evaluation and solution recommendation you have fulfilled your professional obligation. The Building Contractor may try to drag you back to the job site again and again in an attempt break you down and accept responsibility for something that is not your fault. If you find yourself in this situation you probably do not want to continue in future relations with this company anyway so do not be afraid to stand your ground. When you are certain (as Reed is) that the problem in question has nothing to do with the work that you performed let the Building Contractor know up front that you have made your final recommendation and any further meetings or phone calls will be billed as consulting time. It is always fun to be right, but it can be an expensive battle if you are involved with someone who does not appreciate the time of others. Once you have stated your opinion, if the Building Contractor does not agree with it, it is the job of a professional mediator or Judge to determine who is right. I have personally taken at least five phone calls and have spent about two hours so far dealing with this "Builder" of Reed's. I am happy to do it and would go to bat for any contractor that uses Extreme Solutions' Products. I would just much rather do it in court where things get done on a time line. As it is we are just going in circles with this guy as he makes every attempt to avoid responsibility for something that is so clearly his fault. Best of Luck Russell Cissell Hey Reed, after this all blows over we should really share some of the crazy stuff this guy has come up with. I think they would get a laugh about the "Chemistry Expert" he drug you out there to meet with. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aplus 525 Report post Posted July 13, 2004 Sure the builder is a bung-hole, but there's always at least one in a crowd. I agree with what Russ said. Stand your ground Reed, sooner or later he will figure out he's not going to bully you into something. He has no legal grounds either, and I'll be he knows that too. Don't let him get to you, it's not worth it. Myself I just laugh at people like the contractor, I can't change what he is, but I won't concern myself either. There's plenty of people who appreciate the work you do. Just focus on them, and let Mr. Bunghole continue to make a fool out of himself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted July 13, 2004 Hang in there Reed! And just remember, you have a whole network of people out here who would support your statements in a heartbeat I'll bet. Let us know if you need anything. Beth & Rod Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reed 500 Report post Posted July 13, 2004 Called the homeowner this morning. No word from the builder, meantime the deck sits and more knots are falling out. What is nice is that after I has a tanning bleed issue before any of this started, I went back and LIGHTLY removed surface stain/sealer. the deck still has sealer/stain in the wood and still puddles water. Amazing, this process should help hold the knots but the wood is so shoddyl it is still dropping them. the chem expert that was brough in, A competitor who bid against me and didn't get the job, plus uses the same chems. More to it and will elaborate more on this point as time goes by. Meantime, the deck needs to be recleaned and lightly restained. Reed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reed 500 Report post Posted October 18, 2004 latest update. Homeowner called asking if I had heard anything from the Forest Product Supply agent sent out to inspect the deck? 1) This agent showed up and the first words out of him were, "I know nothing about cleaning and sealing of decks. This is a learning lesson for me." !!!!! 2) After explaining all over again the issue with this deck and 2 hours later, the builder decided it would be best to send a sample of the wood in for analysis. the builder took out a circular saw and cut a 1 foot piece out of the homeowners deck floor. Yes he did, cut right into the floor. Then the builder started going around the deck floor with his infamous screw driver and hammer banging on knots and knocking them out. Well yesterday, homeowner stated he contacted a lawyer and was recommended to file a suit against everyone. Homeowner has not decided to do this as yet in that it will cost him 5K up front for a 12K deck. I again referred him to contact the deck builder and state to him that this agent was brought out to his house by the builder and the builder should be responsible for further contact with this agent, not the homeowner or Me. This situation has now been going on since May. I have a feeling this will wind up in court. Stay tuned, Reed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reed 500 Report post Posted October 18, 2004 Would like to hear from ALL of you as to what you think my next step should be. Reed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Celeste 341 Report post Posted October 18, 2004 If this does go to court Reed, they will bring in experts - you have enough folks backing you that I don't think you'll have a problem with any expert testimony on your behalf. In our state (NC), the plaintiff has to prove 100% negligence on the part of the Defendant. You should be able to skate right on by. Did you take pictures as you progressed with this deck? Those always seem to be helpful. On a lighter note.....maybe your finger will suddenly swell back up and you can just flip them all off (with medical excuse!) Good Luck, Celeste Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted October 18, 2004 Reed, Got your message, and I'll be in touch today. Meanwhile..... Got to: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm Download what you need. This is wood care's AHJ. This is the main authority on wood care. I know how you work, you have followed all the steps based on latest research. The material you need to back you, is right here. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueyes 14 Report post Posted October 18, 2004 Hi Beth, How can I get in touch with you about our loghome? We desperatley need your expertise. I sent you a message, but I'm new to the forum and am still trying to find my way around, so I dont know if you got my first email. Please contact me if you have time. Thank you, Dave and Deb Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dale 16 Report post Posted October 18, 2004 Reed I wouldn't worry about it. What is this builder actually saying? The knots fell out because of the chems? Redickless! Do you have any pics? I find it unbelievable that this guy will go thru all this kind of crap over 10 boards! Doesn't the builder or homeowner have a invoice for the lumber? it should state lumber grade purchased. Don't worry ..you have a HUGE flock of people to testify to your professional standards and quality work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted October 18, 2004 I used to work in a cabinet shop that manufactured them from pine. We used to come upon knots that would literally disintegrate when putting a screw into them in the assembling process of putting two boards together. The determination from this after some investigation is that these boards had come from dry lots that had been in storage too long and attributed to the condition causing the decay. The wood was from lesser desired grades of wood and were actually knot ridden. I believe that the same circumstances are prevalent here. Not really substandard work but substandard materials. I would concentrate on finding out what grade of wood was installed in conjunction with what was proposed to the client. You have every right to know this in your own defense. Then I would contact the supplier and find out what their position is regarding this type of wood, and how long typically cedar stays in their stockpiles. Intentionally popping out these knots doesnt prove anything more than a dried knot from a low grade of wood. From what I read here, the builder is trying to scapegoat someone else for his choice in materials to fulfill a contract. I have always known and educated my customers that pressure washing done properly will only reveal the pre-existing conditions. If the builder doesnt want to honor his contract with the homeowner of providing the grade of materials spec'ed, then my suggestion would be to replace the defective boards, salvage the relationship with the customer and leave the builder to fend for himself. You are well respected in this industry and your workmanship is known to be of high quality and we stand behind you. Rod~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reed 500 Report post Posted October 18, 2004 Thanks all, will let you know how things progress. I just looked at the pics I had taken when I had some tannin bleed on this deck and all knots were intact. This is just a shame for the homeowner. Reed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted October 18, 2004 Dave & Deb, Call me toll free at 1-877-426-9274. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paul-uk 500 Report post Posted October 18, 2004 reed...when you got through with the Forest Product Supply agent....what did he have to say...what was his take on the deck....you should win this hands down but it sounds like the judge will know about the same as the agent !!. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aplus 525 Report post Posted October 19, 2004 Reed, I don't think you have anything to worry about. It wouldn't hurt to get some supporting info together in case this moves to the court room. But really, I can't imagine the homeowners spending 5k to pursue this. But you never know. Why doesn't the builder just replace the boards with knots falling out? Or is it too many? It's not like the whole deck has to be rebuilt. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reed 500 Report post Posted October 19, 2004 From what I gather from the homeowner, the builder states" If he replaces the floor boards, what's to say when more knots fall out in the weeks to come, that he won't be back at the same issue?" I have printed out all literature I can see that pertains to this from the Western Red Cedar Lumber Assoc. , Joint Coatings/Forest Products Laboratories, and the Fed. Forest Service. Plus different chapters of the Wood Care Manual from the Forestry Service. I have given copies to the homeowner and I have mine. Plus, with Russ being local I have a manufacteres rep ready to go. This builder doesn't want to spend the $$ necessary to make this right. They are all about making money and don't want to satisfy the customer and have money taken out of their pocket. They have no real clue as to the care of wood, and for that matter, they don't attach wood based on crown but on appearance. Now the temps are falling real fast, knots continue to fall out and soon no cleaner is going to work like it should for me to redo this thing. What a frustrating P.O.S. this is. reed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustMe 14 Report post Posted October 19, 2004 Wow this sounds like a nightmare, sorry to hear about this problem.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aplus 525 Report post Posted October 20, 2004 Reed, How about you offering to replace the bad boards? Of course they pay for your time and the materials, but at least you're offering to do something for them. Maybe by offering your services you can make the builder look like the bad guy (he already is) even more so, and turn the tables around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reed 500 Report post Posted October 20, 2004 I gave that some thought, but if I go and replace the boards this can be looked at that I caused the problem to begin with. This is not what I want to convey. We got the wood for our deck at the same lumber yard. Usually good stuff, I am more aggresive with my deck than with my customers, and I haven't had one knot fall out. This is a wood issue and I know the builder doesn't want to admit it. It is really frustrating. Meanwhile, one of my best customers gets the short end of the stick. Reed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
