When selling quality doesn't work

[staudend 14]

I bid on a 2200 total square foot deck for $1 a square foot and lost it to a lowballer. They are getting ready to sell the house so they didn't care if it was quality or not. I use EFC-38 with hang time for spindles, citralic to neutralize and wood tux to finish. It gets pretty expensive as ya'll know and I thought $2200 was pretty reasonable for a huge deck in mid-missouri. I even gave her a paper spelling out each step of my process and she actually went and looked at some incredible looking wood tux decks I recently did. Is that a reasonable price? And we are talking a huge deck on a huge house.

Just venting.....

[Henry B. 4]

What's wrong with offering your clients that are moving a price that they can afford with a lower end sealer?

I'm sorry that you all may not agree with this but what about the guy that just can't afford $2.50-$3 bucks a square foot. Is it better to let the deck get covered with mildew or rot away to nothing? Or lower these lofty principles and work with the client? I'd rather give them a lower price with a homeowner based sealer than just blow off the job and tell them to save up some money then call me. Or even worse, let a low baller trash their deck. Then they will just think all pw companies are rip offs or idiots. Educate the customer on why your price is what it is and let them know to help them out you can offer them a sealer that's not AS good but it will be a short term solution for a year.

Sorry if you don't agree but I believe in working with people when possible. I'd rather inform them then give them a choice on what they want.

Give it a shot you may be suprised how many more jobs you will close, and still make a profit on.

[Gavin 14]

Personally, I would've charged her even more. And, I wouldn't be too upset about "losing" that bid. Sometimes that is a blessing in disguise. I do give discounts for square footage over a certian number but it still wouldn't bring me down to 1.00 per sq. 2200 is a VERY large deck which will suck up a ton of stain and could take quite awhile to complete. Sounds like at even $2000 straight up you'd still be losing.

I also believe in working with people and believe me, I give breaks and discounts all over the place but putting myself out of business in the process isn't going to help anyone. I've done several "I just want to sell my house" decks and have not had to lowball to get them.

I don't think most people realize the amount of work it actually takes to restore a deck and therefore really don't have ANY idea of how much it should cost either. I try to educate my customers but have come to realize that most of them just want it done and don't really care what processes or products are used (although I will NOT use cheap products). They are only concerned with the bottom line and it "looking" good.

Kind of like I told my mechanic the other day......Even though it's nice to know, I don't care what "technically" is wrong with it......just fix it. If they really cared about selling their home then maybe they should also care about the quality they put into fixing it up and then maybe it would sell.

A wise man once told me "you can polish a turd but in the end, it's still just a shiney turd".

[staudend 14]

Using a lower end sealer wouldn't cut substantially of the bid, maybe 75-100 bucks or so. My time and effort is in the process, as in protecting the house much more than lowballers, and using high quality cleaners and neutralizers. Therefore it wouldn't help me or the customer that much to use a lesser product anyways.

I think many customers can be sold on quality. I gave a quick estimate on a deck without having the time to really explain my process and products. She didn't call me back, but when I was in the area a again, I stuck a paper on her door explaining my products and process. She called me soon after.

I'll tell the guy that can't afford it how to do it right and what the best consumer grade products are in the area and let him do it. I've done it in the past, and it shows the customer you care about the quality even if you can't lower standards enough to get there, and sometimes you may get the job because of that.

[Jesse 15]

I agree with you guys........ when someone asks....... "Who sealed your deck" (because the finish is failing way to soon and looks awful)....... you can bet they wont say......... "Oh I just went with the lowest bid to cut costs it wasn’t the contractors fault"

Instead they will say....... "Bla Bla Deck Services did it and it is already looking like crap, Never hire those guys"

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Excellent point have been made here.

It goes back to this very basic marketing point...you are either leading with price, or with quality, but you CAN NOT lead with both.

If you don't draw the line and stand by your price and promote quality you lead with price. You can say you are quality, but if you are promoting price, you are leading with price.

If you are leading with quality you don't care if you are the high bidder. You know the work is the best, and you will still get plenty of work and not have to worry about leaving money on the table.

I can't tell you how hard this point is to convey to people.

If you are going to negotiate with someone or offer a discount that's fine, but why would you use a lesser product and what does this say about how much you care about the property? Do you think maybe the homeowner will leave behind the info for a new owner? Do you think that the new owner (who is an unknown - remember that) just MAY have a company that they too did business with before and that it might be a good idea for your job to be able to outshine what the unknown new owner's company is capable of doing? What if the unknown new owner had a really top notch excellent company, and they didn't cut corners, and that new owner believed in using the very best and expected nothing but excellent products and service that lasts? Would you be a shoe in, or would they not even bother with you and call the company that provided service to them before?

We move WITH our cusomers, and whoever handled the property before well....

We lead with quality. Period.

Beth :groovy3:

[Celeste 341]

Speaking of before and after shots for the client - After we do the clean on a new construction home, we do a personalized brochure to the new homeowner's outlining our services and include a little discount coupon for them because they live where they live (trying to build up annual contracts in this one development) But I am drifting...my point is that you can - for about the same amount of money in a "portfolio", do a personalized thank you with the photos on it and maybe offer some future discount for all referrals they give you.

Oh, and by the way, don't beat yourself up because of this lost job - your quality workmanship will win out in the end. We'd have probably charged more so you weren't over the top in my opinion. There are always the beer money guys out there - inevitably will make us look better in the end anyway.

Celeste

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

It never ceases to amaze me that there is a double edged sword where agreeing on

lesser quality products just to get the job is concerned. Alot of us have done it.

These customers that want the least expensive solution have not ever referred us nor have they called us back for additional services once they moved (if locally moving)

Yes! We all want the work, but at what cost?

This is what I have learned;

The lesser quality product with a short term duration will be seen by others in the neighborhood and watched as the product degrades and develop opinions from there.

The better quality ones will derive opinions based on the duration and look that is evident for a longer period of time.

So, what does that mean?

Perception is the paramount.

Patience is our friend,

Get the job and lose the neighborhood.

or...be the next in line who gets several of the neighbors as well.

I keep this in mind, "Whats your reputation worth?" When I did apply the lesser products in the past, the best that I could hope for was that the structure is secluded enough that the neighbors wont be able to see it. I knew it wouldnt last long.

On price;

Discounts can only go so far before you start to discount your service if you get the meaning. I have seen the results of highly discounted services and had to clean up after them as well. Those clients that our company has had to perform restoration services for end up referring our company and speak highly about their experience.

Stick to your guns folks. We are here to become more knowledgable and skilled at our chosen profession. We spend the time and energy doing research, self educating, practicing, and developing what will become the pride we know can be in every job done afterwards.

Your reputation is riding on it :)

Rod~

[reed 500]

I have on several occasions gone to look at a deck or fence and know that restoring could be done, but would not look like what I want them to look like. I have told the homeowner I won't touch this job. And he may want to consult a deck builder or fence builder when they are really bad.

I can pick and choose at my discretion. My open appointments are limited. I run from March to October. I refuse to lower the craftmanship I try to employ in any way, shape or form. I have also had the pleasure of telling customers that they don't need me right away. The deck or fence can wait one year and I will be happy to provide my services. I honor past bids. If a customer states I gave them a bid 4 months ago and have an opening, I will schedule them.

I can say I have NEVER bid a deck in order just to get the job. I run my business not the customer. I am the decision maker. I choose the projects and I choose them carefully. Iwill never skimp on product nor will I apply any product I don't believe 100 percent in.

Others may disagree, but that is the beauty of commerce and business.

Ok, enough from me, the rain outside has me inside and I don't like it :soapbox:

Have a great sunshiney day if you have the sun.

Reed

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Now theres a man of convictions!

Rod~

[Celeste 341]

Now that the topic of discounts has come up and since we're only a year old and are still looking for sound business advise:

We are doing all the post construction clean up in one particular development - projected houses in the neighborhood is 1700-1800. As we do these houses, the new homeowners are seeing us around. We want to get annual contracts with these folks (half of the neighborhood at just $150 per house would be $127500 per year - in one 500 acre area). It certainly wouldn't mean that we would compromise our results, but when you factor in trip time, being able to do multiple houses in one day within a block or so from each other or in between jobs for the contractor. Well, it just seemed like a good idea to reward the homeowners by knocking a little off the standard house wash or driveway clean. If someone has more experience in this type plan - please let us know.....don't want to get bitten in the end just because it seemed to be a good idea "at the time".

The other "discount" I referred to was, upon completion of a job, we give the happy customer a small stack of business cards with the promise of say, $25.00 off of their next paid job for every paid job we got from their referrals.

[CCPC 26]

My observations have been (considering my limited exposure to wood restoration) that here in this neck of the woods most people WILL NOT pay the top dollar prices that many on this bbs are quoting on wood restoration in other areas. You can tell them all about your indepth process till your blue in the face, but in the end, most around here are only interested in trying to squeeze out another 5 to 10 years of life on there, usually, PT deck. 8 out of 10 decks in this area are sealed with cheap clear sealers and the most homeowners seem fine with that.

Honestly, I think it must be in large part, geographical. I have seen many pictures of the work that a lot of the masters on this bbs post and I never see decks sealed at that level of quality around here.

With that said, I would have to agree with Henry on this one, at least under these given circumstances for me in this area. In short, if I want to do any decks around here I have to be willing to comprimise.

P.S. Anyone from the Jacksonville area please chime in... I bet we will not here from anyone in this area that disagrees with my observations.

[staudend 14]

I should probably be starting another thread for this....

I tried ignorantly to predict the weather and got caught on another deck halfway through. I got the floors wood tux'd about 10 minutes before it popped up and poured, but also put tarps and plastic over it just before it did. I used some blue tarps and clear plastic. I went back today and took the plastic off and some water had gotten through. Most of the tux had already soaked below the surface though before it rained, but it looks really splotchy. I am thinking the clear plastic covered part might have cured faster. I'm hoping the other sections will brighten up to the rest of it given a little time.

What is the alternative if the floor does cure the way I want it to? Will it cure up?

I'm thinking a full strip and re-application if not, but pipe in anybody who has gotten caught in the rain too. I will spare no expense to make this customer happy. She runs a property management company and I have done extensive work for her before on her properties.

Reed, Rod & Beth or Jesse feel free to pipe in here or anybody who uses Wood tux, I used Warm honey gold.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

HD-80 is what I suggest to strip the floor with. Then brighten it. I would not think the tarps would work well simply because you are restricting air flow, which is important.

Beth

[Jesse 15]

Hey Nick,

I was caught in the rain a couple of weeks ago using Wood Tux Western Red Cedar. The hand rails looked great but the floor was splotchy where the rain had puddled. We were finishing up the floor as it started dumping on us.

On the picnic table Russ had me apply a light mist several days later just like a maintenance coat and it turned out perfectly, just a little darker than before.

The customer was unhappy with her choice of color on the deck so she had me restrip the hole deck and reseal using the Warm Honey Gold. I used HD80 with the Boost additive at 30-40 minutes of dwell time. This was only because I was going from a darker color to a lighter color. I had an enormous amount of furring trying to get out all of the pigment.

Beth and Rod have the more experience than I since they were in on the testing.

Jesse

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I can understand where CCPC is coming from and under those circumstances may

fall prey to his reasoning if that were the case.

I think I would examine why quality is not being welcomed and price (lowest) is.

You say that you never see decks of quality in your area...thats interesting.

If everyones always looks like crap, then you cant expect anyone to pay for it either.

Maybe there is an opportunity here for you to set yourself apart?

It comes back to this...the one customer who does let you put a quality job in place and the neighbors who will see it.

The photos you can take and show to others of the difference you can make...and the longevity it may impart on their deck.

Take what these people have as reason to not pay for a better job and turn it into why are they paying more often and letting it deteriorate in between times.

I think you have an opportunity there and have not found its advantages.

Keep an open mind and dont give up.

Rod~

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Stripping wood tux is not easy!

Its transoxide pigments and resin system make it really durable.

Let me help those of you who are having a time of it stripping using HD-80.

For all the times I have used HD-80 to strip with I have rarely needed to mix it more than 7oz. (weight) per gallon.

6oz is common and works very well. The dwell time and active status is important.

Dwell time of 15-45 minutes is typical for weathered to newer or more intact sealers.

Active status simply put is keeping the product wet! By this I dont mean with just plain water, but with additional HD-80. If it becomes dry, its no longer working.

Check the areas of application for progress by using the end of your spray wand to basically scribble on the surface. If it comes off easily then you can move on. If not, then reapply and check other areas while you are giving it time to dwell.

Verticals, especially under the rail caps are the tougher areas to strip.

Horizontals around the rail system will be more likely to be heavily coated due to over spray during the previous application. Save the floor for last. It is often the easiest to strip.

Concentrating on these areas and noting where the product has completed its

job (turned dark) will help minimize furring. Expect furring though.

Alot of the application of sealers today are not necessarily done by experienced people.

Amateurs hired and quick trained to do the work as well as Harry Homeowner and their ambitious use of weekend time to save a few hundred bucks can leave a job with uneven application techniques and therefore some easily stripped areas wereas you may encounter ones that take longer.

Do not strip more than once! You should be able to get at least 98% in the 1st attempt. I do...consistently. Patience and attention to the color change will help you get through any sealer out there.

Using the thickener will help with the verticals if you are removing an acrylic that is in good condition or on a hot day. (not recommended but sometimes unavoidable)

Once you have acheived an even dark color across the deck, then and only then do you rinse. (we use 40 degree tips) Keep the wood wet after the rinse and then apply the neutralizer. Allow it to bring the pH back and reapply where needed.

Rinse and then rinse again.

If removing a previous coating with a red pigment in it, prepare the customer for the hue that will be evident but not overwhelming in the woods substrate.

It may effect the next sealers color slightly and they should be aware of it.

If you have any furring as a result of the strip, use a defurring pad. You can mount them on sanding blocks or get the ones that you can put on a variable speed orbital polisher (works great).

When removing Wood Tux that has been recently applied, plan on doing some sanding. Its not going to give up easily.

If you are doing touch up after a rain, learn the technique of blending.

We have had to do this on a couple of occasions when one of those afternoon thunderstorms sneaks up on the forecasters and noone know about it till its 15 minutes away.

Blending requires that you apply lightly in the area where the problem is.

Once you have blended the affected areas, then recoat the entire affected area. It is likely that the result will turn out darker, but in most cases you are applying to horizontals which would benefit from the application.

The product will cure. Be aware of areas that 'pull' on your brush or pad.

This is a sign that the product is setting up and over application may cause 'shineys'. (areas of gloss where surrounding ones are more satin)

All this in mind, good luck to you on your project.

Rod~

[Henry B. 4]

Okay this is a trick question...

"The photos you can take and show to others of the difference you can make...and the longevity it may impart on their deck."

I've asked this question to MANY different manufacturers but I've never been able to get a reasonable answer.

If I use your product per specification, how much longer will the deck last than if I just used another sealer and did the job every year?

"I use the same methods of pre-treating, cleaning and nuetrilizing all our deck jobs.. The only thing different is the sealer itself."

The only answer I have ever recieved was that it would last forever if it was maintained with their product.

We all know that nothing lasts forever and I think it was foolish for a rep to say that. I am curious though if anyone has been able to get some type of definite answer to this question and what was the product?

The reason I ask this question is because I've had clients ask me the same thing, I'm not trying to cause controvery but I don't feel comfortable telling a client that something will last forever.

[staudend 14]

Thanks Rod, I'll try to blend it. Can I blend with a little on a brush instead of spray? I brushed this deck because thankfully it didn't have spindles, just cross boards. When you say, "Once you have blended the affected areas, then recoat the entire affected area," is that two coats over that darker area or one where it needs blending and one over the whole thing? If it didn't cure even, I'm hoping I just have to blend. I find it very hard to avoid shiny spots too. Is there a way to remove it if it cures shiney?

Thanks Rod, Nick

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Henry,

A few years back a young man came to us under the pretense of wanting to work. To make a long story short, after a week he vanished, and an ad appeared in the Gazette (out local paper for those not around here) with his cell phone number. In a week he had gone into business for himself. Well, his brilliance drove him out of business just about as fast as he was in it... his ad read that he guaranteed his product would last 7 to 10 years, and the product he was pushing had a two year life.

Nothing lasts forever. If it did, the companies making the products would not be in business, and neither would we. Exterior wood requires maintenance. Anyone who doesn't want to deal with (homeowner I mean) is simply hurting their property.

Stand by your guns.

Beth

[Henry B. 4]

LOL Beth!!

I remember that guy, he was using abr products. I've even went back out and done a few of his jobs this year. Unfortuanetly, the clients loved the abr product so I had to retreat it with that but the decks look good.

ABR really is a good product, I'd put it up there with ready seal but I just can't take the smell of the stuff!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Yeah we get a few of his decks too from time to time. It's kinda funny.....

[staudend 14]

Here are some pics of the rain deck that I blended already. I put a really light coat of warm honey gold over everything and wiped out the shiny's today.

Thanks Jesse and Rod for the advice. It turned out fine, but is not totally cured to its final color in the pic as wood tuxer's know (it will lighten up and get richer within 7-14 days).

[seymore 90]

Looks good Nick :cool:

[Firedkm 14]

I just love that color on decks! Nice job Nick

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Hey Nick,

I didnt get back to you in time but it shows you have done quite well for yourself on that deck.

Good Job!

Rod~