Heads up on this combination!

[Littlefield 65]

Had a bad experience with Woodguard and Oxalic acid. After applying and pressure rinsing off a new log home at around 1500psi, I coated the home with Woodguard. After 2 months, it looked covered with mold. Round and round we went, with the final result looking like a chemical reaction with a residue from the acid.

Folks, I know how to rinse, and I was on this job personally. This is not an isolated spot on the place, but all over. The chemist recommended in the future to buffer/neutralize the acid with sodium bicarbonate. Check out www.primeshop.com and look through the prep sections for more on this....

I hesitated to post this, 'cause its egg on my face, but the way the owner is approaching it right now is that its an industry accepted chemical, and they need to inform applicators of the dangers of this reaction.

I hope this helps someone, and remember, its worth a call to the tech support numbers to see if they know about this before you proceed with cleaning.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Wow. Thanks Rich.

Say have you worked with Defy products? Rod and I have a job to do, it's a maintenance wash and recoat on a log home, but one side is getting stripped because the contractor put two different colors on it...ok. Logs are maybe a year old. The owner is supplying the Defy products. We have not worked with them before, but all the MSDS and the product specs sheets look pretty basic to us.

On the home you did.....

Are you sure it is the acid? Do you have photos? When we have seen wood (any type) grow mold or mildew that fast it was due to the sealer if the prep was right. We have seen products with either a failed mildewcide or anti-fungal, or a contaminated batch where the linseed oil is feeding the spores. Have you checked other jobs with the same sealer on them? I would if you have others out there.

On the other hand, we had a new deck built this year and it's built with CA (copper azole) lumber. We did a light wash and neut before sealing it. The citralic we used when combined with the CA in the wood - man what a smell! It was similar to sulfur. Not something we expected at all. Unexpected things can happen. These were not PT logs were they?

Beth

[reed 500]

IF the woodgaurd is linseed oil based, that is a sugar and a food source for mold. Are you absolutely sure it is the acid? That doesn't seem right in that there are no sugar elements in oxallic.

Reed

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I agree Reed, it doesn't seem like it could be the acid to me either. I think either the mildewcide failed, (not enough or whatever or is not in the product) or the batch was contaminated.

If a product has a hefty dose of mildewcide and antifungal, then it will kill spores not visible to the eye is my understanding. But like other ingredients the quantity, type and kind of agent in a product can vary. You can also pop open a pail and not know it is contaminated.

We have seen this problem in a few sealers in past years:

Menwood

ABR

and homeowner applied Behr clear

Have heard a few folks mention this phenomenon using Penofin as well, but have not seen it.

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I would question the sealer 1st.

Mold and mildew feed on linseed oil and if the mildewcide failed in the sealer, you cant be responsible for that. You didnt make it!

The acid has not had any effect on any of the other products mentioned here.

Menwood for example, label directions state that in more humid climates, you must add a mildewcide to the sealant before application.

Why is a matter of chemistry. The dryer and the oils are supposed to function in concert with each other and if there is too much moisture, then one fails to do its job and this sets up an environment for the mildew to proliferate.

I would like to see pics of this in order to better understand what you are talking about.

It sounds to me like you are aware of rinsing and its importantce, so, dont feel bad...its only a little egg...throw one at the manufacturer :razz:

Keep us posted on how this turns out, its very interesting.

Rod~

[James 625]

Rich its got to be the sealer. Unless there was mildew present and it grew thur or you have a bad batch of sealer ' weak mildiside". You can check- If its fairly new spray some bleach on the surface if the mily goes away and the surface looks good it the sealer. If thre is mily still present and it looks like you have to strip it. The mildew was present when sealing and grew thur. I have other comments if you tried these already.

[JFife 14]

Rich,

I think the lesson to be learned here is to stay away from Woodguard. I've seen it applied properly by Heritage Log Homes, and trust me, it is not a quality you want to put your name on. I am shocked how they are still in business. Just my opinion,

[Littlefield 65]

Got an update today, and I think I'm going to try to get some independant verification before moving this into my warranty folder.

Woodguard hired a guy to come look at it, after finding out that I used oxalic and he's the one on the chemical reaction kick. He's not claiming its mold, rather that its not mold or mildew. He says the acid is reacting with the stain, and turning something black. I don't know if its the acid residue he's claiming is on the surface, the stain, or the wood.

Bleach doesn't touch it, acid will clean it up in 5 minutes or so. It keeps coming back on the surface of the stain, or I'm assuming thats where it is, since it can be cleaned off without stripping. Chemist recommended neutralizing the acid with sodium hydroxide, which I thought was ironic....

[reed 500]

Rich another option here would be to try Citrallic acid, see if that gives you the same result. It would be worth the info you gain on oxallic vs citrallic.

Reed

[Celeste 341]

We are experiencing a similar problem with a deck that we did just three months ago - the stain is completely failing in some locations and the deck floor, rails, spindles are all polka-dotted with black (big) spots. This was a strip of a solid Behr product - SHE chose the Deckscapes stain that we used because it was the closest match we could get to her previous color. Deck was stripped with SH product, brightened with oxalic - looked fine for the rest of the summer and now POOF, it has black chicken pox. This post has been extremely helpful for us - hopefully we can all find a solution that isn't going to break the bank. (I hate these growing pains).

Will post pics this afternoon.

Celeste

[JFife 14]

Geez Rich, what a nightmare. Not what you needed coming back from your previous situation.

Again, I've heard nothing but horror stories from people who have used WG and had problems. Company always finds something to blame. There are so many possibilities as to what could have caused this, but my guess is that you'll be the one that has to eat it. Keep us up to date on what happens,

jon

[Aplus 525]

We are experiencing a similar problem with a deck that we did just three months ago - the stain is completely failing in some locations and the deck floor, rails, spindles are all polka-dotted with black (big) spots. This was a strip of a solid Behr product - SHE chose the Deckscapes stain that we used because it was the closest match we could get to her previous color. Deck was stripped with SH product, brightened with oxalic - looked fine for the rest of the summer and now POOF, it has black chicken pox. This post has been extremely helpful for us - hopefully we can all find a solution that isn't going to break the bank. (I hate these growing pains).

Will post pics this afternoon.

Celeste

This is a good reason why you should never let a customer chose what brand stain they want. Afterall, you are supposed to be the professional, and you should decide which products you will offer. If that doesn't suit a particular customer, so be it. Better to lose one then the trouble that's caused when a lousy stain fails.

Your company reputation is worth more than the few bucks you will make satisfying a customer with a low quality stain.

[Celeste 341]

You're not just whistling Dixie on that one - I'm thinking that she may have some regrets herself right about now. Not sure what is still going to happen - we do know that SW is going to make good on it (although I don't think replacing the existing stuff with the SAME stuff is the answer at all!) The whole mess has fried my brain.

Celeste

[Aplus 525]

It's time to forget about the retail grade stuff and come on over to contractor grade products.

Wood Tux & Ready Seal come to mind.

[Celeste 341]

We usually use Ready Seal. This was a one time bad experience....I refer to these retail grade stains as "over the counter" as opposed to "prescription". She wanted a color - not a wood enhancing thing of beauty. Heck, we had to strip her umpteen coats of Behr first then to try to match the crap with what she wanted. As far as I'm concerned, offering people colors is just asking for trouble. , but for the record, you "two tone guys" what stain do you use when someone wants to have the white rails - I know it ain't Ready Seal or Wood Tux!

Celeste

[Gavin 14]

I have had great success with Cuprinol (now called Deckscapes/Woodscapes) on my two-tones. Covers very well and looks great.

[Celeste 341]

I can maybe understand about color fading in places.....ever notice how your tan fades differently on your body? The biggest failure here was the mildewcide in the product. I just want the whole mess to go away (which it's not, but I can wish) We're going to meet her sometime this week to discuss the next step. Yuck.

Celeste

Here's a small example of the mildew.....which on the one hand, should not have happened as Deckscapes contains a milewcide but on the other hand is linseed oil based which is otherwise known as "mildew food".

[reed 500]

Celeste,

I use Cuprinol, "deckscapes" brilliant white, covers well and 1 heavy coat with 1 light coat. Never more than 2 coats will be needed.

Reed

[Celeste 341]

Tony C

Somewhat backed by the other professional opinions of Cuprinol Deckscapes, let me reiterate that this customer wanted to achieve a color that was as close to the solid stain color as she had before. This was not possible using a wood toner type product like Ready Seal or Wood Tux. It is not always possible to (a) walk away from a job because they don't like your stain selection (b) sway what someone wants because your opinion isn't the same. What we try to achieve is providing what the customer wants and based on everything that we have read and questions that we have asked, the Deckscape product should have been fine. Bottom line is that the mildewcide failed and SW is making good on it. Roger stands behind his work and will do what is necessary to make her happy and we will get 4 more decks out of this painful lesson. I'm done beating us up about this.

Thanks for the responses. Many issues have been resolved.

Celeste

[reed 500]

Celeste,

You did exactly what you should do. Stand behind your business and do your best to satisfy yourself and customer.

Reed

[Aplus 525]

Celeste,

When you stated you stripped a solid Behr product, I incorrectly assumed you were doing so to move towards a semi-trans product. That's why I mentioned WT or RS.

As far as solid stains go, many of the popular name products will give satisfactory results. I've had good results with Olympic solid, as well as Sears WeatherBeater.

Regarding the Deckscapes being "linseed" based....is there any reason you went with an oil based solid instead of a latex based solid? I know the oil based may provide more strippability in the future, but latex seems to be the whip for solid as far as I've experienced.

So what are others using for solid stains....oil based or latex based?

[Gavin 14]

Actually, I believe the Cuprinol is Acryllic based. Dries really fast and soaks in really well!

Hey Tony, I just noticed you are wearing a Red Wings jersey in your profile picture. Sorry about that! I'm mean that you're a Wings fan..... just busting your chops. Cheers from Avalanche country! So sad, no hockey this year.

[reed 500]

Deckscaped brilliant white states on the can, "Acrylic Latex".

Reed