Cabot's question

[jnoden 15]

I decided to use Cabots this year and have a question for those of you who have used it more than a few times. The brochure reads that is is a semi solid and you can achieve semi trans by mixing equal parts of the clear with it. When I called the dealer they said that all their cans are semi trans however I used the red wood yesterday and it looked opaque. It also clogged my deckster sprayer and now I need to figure out how to tear everything apart (including the pump), clean with thinner and put it all back together. I guess my question is, do you mix the clear in yourself? does it then spray well through a shur flo type sprayer? Also I was wondering if anyone has heard about when we will not be able to buy the oil stains due to the new compliance law. Thank you for any responses.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Not all products are compatible. Can you tell us specifically which product it is you applied and which product you wish to mix with? We use their products, and some I would not mix with others.

Personally I would be inclined to call Cabot's tech support line and ask a Cabot tech rather than the dealer, who may have an unfamiliar clerk...

Beth

[Everett Abrams 501]

jnoden,

The decking stain you used was probably the 7400 series(this is the old 1400 series) that is their decking stain. It has teflon and other additives in it that their semi-transparent does not have. Cabot's decking stain is more opaque than most semi-transparents. The scenario you speak of when combining equal parts clear and the decking stain is called intermixing. Intermixing of these products can bring great results in appearance. You should also be able to spray the intermixed product through an HVLP type of sprayer. If you are going to be using the decking stains or any solids you would be wise to invest in an airless sprayer. The HVLP sprayers work much better on the 3000 series and Timber Oil products than the heavier pigmented stain lines. Another word of caution when intermixing is to keep track of how you intermix so that future maintenance is not an issue. I ALWAYS intermix at 50/50 with these products.

A word of caution that Beth touched on, is that there are two different types of Cabot Dealers. There are regular dealers/distributors and there are certified dealers/distributors. The certified dealers are the ones with the knowledge and good advice. I once had a situation where a regular dealer gave out the problem solver primer and then gave them the 1400 decking stain for the finish coat, which was the wrong product to use. When you contact Cabot ask them for a certified dealer in your area. Also, if you call and are going to use this product you can request a contractor's operational book that they have. It has a lot of good information in it.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Hey Ev,

How do you feel about the new SPF product, and would you mix that with anything? With it being an acrylic and a wet technology, I am concerned that you can't mix it with other things...can you shed light?

Beth

[Everett Abrams 501]

I would say that if it isn't an oil it should not go on the deck, this is my opinion. What drips or oversprays in the environment is insignificant(as I have been told by EPA reps). So this push for water-based products and one day deck products are what is easier for the consumer or the contractor and more politically correct and not neccessarily best for the wood. This is only my opinion and I am sure I am still a bit "old school" when it comes to this but until proven different I'll stick with the oils. Future maintanence of a water based product can also be challenging. To answer your question about mixing the water based products I would say they mix well in my dumpster!

[Celeste 341]

In response to VOC compliance question, Wood Tux, Ready Seal, Wood Defender to name a few have already re-formulated to be in compliance with the new laws.

Celeste

[Everett Abrams 501]

Celeste,

I was more talking about positive public perception than VOC compliance. Since you mentioned it though, ALL products that were not compliant before the new regulations took effect this year they had to be reformulated. To my knowledge Ready Seal WAS NOT reformulated as it had already met the new VOC requirements prior to this taking effect.

[Celeste 341]

You are correct about the Ready Seal; I think I read somewhere where Pierce had indicated they were compliant.

Celeste

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Personally, I think we will see more products change due to the VOC laws changing. I know the Sikkens line will change next year, and right now the products that are stocked, were made PRIOR to the law change, and are grandfathered. Look for changes next season... (got this from the rep, not a dealer)

Beth

[Aplus 525]

Regarding Ready Seal, one thing I noticed is that the new stuff has a different odor, almost sweet, compared to before, when the odor was more like machining oil.

I had a few buckets of stain left over from last season, as well as new ones I just ordered, so I had several occasions of smelling both, one after the other. No difference in color, application, nothing else besides the odor.

Maybe Pierce will read this thread and provide some info.

[sturgisjr 14]

I have a few questions about Cabots Decking Stains as well. I would like some clarification on some of the responses that were given.

The Cabots Decking stains are semi-solids right? This is what I gathered upon calling Cabots directly. Their Semi-Trans are used for siding and will not be a great product to put on a deck due to the quicker fade and less durability. Am I correct here? The Decking Stain which supposedly only comes as a semi-solid can achieve a semi-transparent stain by mixing in with it clear 1400 Decking stain? If this is done, is it still as durable and "better" than the semi-transparent used recommended for siding?

One more thing... I worry about my husband breathing in the fumes on a regular basis from the Stains. It says to increase air ventilation if headaches or dizziness occur (but its done outside... how much more air ventilation can you get?) or to wear a respirator. We don't experience headaches or dizziness, but Are there any dangers? What do you other wood restoration professionals that have been in this MUCH longer than us do? I was out with Brian 10 hours straight yesterday and today staining with Cabots Solid Oil Decking Stain and the smell was really strong but I am sensitive to smells anyway. And now that we are done... I still smell it even after a shower and freshen up. He has been doing this all of last season and now this season and this was the first time I helped him and the odor just got me to wondering if he should be protecting himself better.

Thanks!

[PressurePros 248]

Everett nailed it when describing the Cabot's as opaque. I am referring to the semi transparent stuff which is what you should probably steer your customers towards. The Cabot's decking stains I believe are film forming. They can last longer if properly manintained, but most people call you after their deck has already turned into a peeling, flaking mess and without maintenance on a solid or semi solid stain, that doesn't take a very long time.

I only wear a ventilator when I'm spraying sealer. Though I should probably be more diligent and wear it every minute I am applying. Sometimes I choose comfort over common sense and thats not very wise.

[sturgisjr 14]

Avoiding a film forming finish is what I want to do. The only semi-transparent I know of is the one that is recommended for Siding only according to the "semi Transparent/Semi-Solids" Brochure. If I use mix the semi-solid that is recommended for decks (and if I understand correctly, this decking stain is film forming) with the Decking clear, would that penetrate into the wood and not be film forming? The customer wants the THATCH color on their deck. Please steer me into which product EXACTLY I should be using. The "Deck Care Products" Brochure only lets me know about the Decking Stain and the Solid Color Decking Stain.

I have 2 decks I am doing in which the customer chooses out of the 74 cabots colors as a "semi-transparent" and I want to make sure I use the RIGHT product.

Am I clear here?? Sometimes I understand it in my head but I do terrible trying to explain to someone else.

What kind of ventilator? The same kind you use when applying chems? My husband has a full face respirator with a battery from Survivair and uses that when applying chemicals.

[PressurePros 248]

Use the semi-transparent version. It is fine for decks. Don't mix the two kinds, film forming and penetrating, results could be much less than desirable.

Some respirators are made for paint spraying. I use one from 3M with replacable cartriges.

[Everett Abrams 501]

I think you are mistaken on your intermixing of the products. The old 1400 series (which is now the 7400 series) can be intermxed with the clear solutuion to achieve the result you are looking for. You should not use the semi-transparent on the horizontal decking surface. The recommendation is what I have stated above. If you are still unsure you should call Cabot and find a "certified dealer" in your area and not just an outlet that sells their products, there is a difference in support and knowledge.

[PressurePros 248]

Now I am completely confused. I have used Cabot's semi-transparent stains on decks. As far as longevity, when I had a Cedar deck attached to my house and before I got into residential work professionally, I use the Cabot's semi transparent (oil) and didn't have to touch the horizontals for three years.

[sturgisjr 14]

Everett,

At the place where I purchase Cabot Stains, they are not certified Cabots Dealers. In hopes of avoiding a phone call directly with Cabots....Can you tell me if I am correct in that the custom color decking stain (1400) is a semi-solid? And to acheive a semi-transparent look, I can mix equal parts of the semi-solid with a clear 1400 decking stain? You mentioned that the 1400 is the older series and it is now 7400. Why is it that I still see the number 1400 on the cans when I go to pick up stain?

To intermix the color decking stain and the clear decking stain will allow it to penetrate evenly into the wood? This is not film forming is it?

I know that when I called Cabots directly, they told me NOT to use a semi-transparent on decks since it was made only for vertical surfaces such as siding and to use the Decking Stains that are semi-solids and to achieve the Semi-transparent look, I should mix with a clear and I just wanted to check with you to see if I understood correctly.

Also, what is the durability on these kind of stains?

Thanks!

[Everett Abrams 501]

I believe if you are still seeing the 1400 series you are getting the old product that was in inventory before the change in VOC regulations. I will caution anyone who has used Cabots that all the new products ARE a different color than the old. Forget about a maintenance coat! You will end up doing spindles on repeat work to match the floor. I found out the hard way myself!

Cabot has told you about their semi's and that they were not made for horizontal surfaces. I will tell you though, that I have done some decks with it(semi's) for testing myself and have found the same results as Ken. It may not last as long but it performs reasonably well and shows more grain. In any event, the decking stains are more along the lines of a semi-solid and are intermixed with the clears. I am not aware of any 1400 series clear. The only clears are in the 3000 series and the Timber Oils. I intermix the Timber Oil Natural with decking stains 50/50 and have had some unbelievable results in color retention and durability. It is harder to match these up though when doing repeat maintenance because of intermixing and the degradation of the product over a couple years or so. You should easily achieve over two years with intermixing.

[sturgisjr 14]

I checked up on the 1400 and the 7400 and I don't really see a difference unless I am missing something. I am aware that you say the colors ARE different between the 2 products.

If you have the time, can you please look over these 2 PDFs and tell me what you think?

http://www.cabotstains.com/pdf/tds/7400_tds.pdf

http://www.cabotstains.com/pdf/tds/1400_tds.pdf

On these pages, it explains about how to intermix with a 1400 or a 7400 Clear decking stain as well which is what I was asking about.

AND... these decking stains are penetrating products right? Not Film-forming? I had a customer last year who used a Cabots clear solution redwood tinted product and it was flaking and peeling after 2 years. I stripped it and had it done in WoodTux's California Redwood. If it was peeling like that.. does that mean its a film forming product? I want to be sure that either the 1400 or the 7400 series Decking stains were not film forming.

Thanks! I think I am getting there.

[jnoden 15]

Sturgis,

I intermixed the 1400 series semi solid with 1400 clear on my last deck and the results looked good. Much better than just using the semi solid which covers the wood grain too much. I just spoke to a rep from Cabots and he said the semi-solid last 2-3 years and the intermixed last 1-2 years. Hopefully he was being conservative with the intermixed because I gave my customer a 2 year warranty and let him know that I would recoat it for free if there are problems before two years other than some fading. These stains are penetrating oils by the way. I love their oil based solid for two tones because it does not need a primer and covers better than any other solid i have ever used. I wouldnt want to try stripping it though since it has acrylic but recoating is fine on the spindles. I would like to try the SPF but I am reluctant because I want to see what others say about it first.

[PressurePros 248]

Cabot's SPF = Nasty. It's acrylic so it will be a stripping nightmare and it just looks ugly when it dries (to be fair I have only seen two and both people regretted using it)

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Revisiting this as I'm abit torn on whether to go with cabot or with olympic on a two tone deck/pergola porch project....Durability and sprayability is mainly on my mind right after considerations of the need to solid over an existing solid on the verticles.

It seems cabot still has info up on the 1400 so I assume it still available...?

There was question above of what the difference is between the 1400 and the 7400 and the info reads that the solid content and thickness of the 7400 is higher and it must be brushed whereas the 1400 can be hvlp sprayed. What teh current scoop on the stuff?

Was thinking going 50/50 clear to semi-solid of the 1400 on the horizontals and use Cabot OVT 6500 on verticles for it's one coat ability at going over acrylic but am unsure how it would spray. The info on it has mention of being sprayable but wonder if that is myth as far as hvlp goes. I mean if they imply the 7400 is too thick, isn't the ovt solid gonna be even worse?

Meanwhile in contrast, the Olympic line doesn't offer thickness/viscosity figures to glean from so it seems an easy jump to either certain success or certain failure..

What to do, what to do.. ?

[MMI Enterprises 289]

What no takers?..no one around that knows Cabot? ;(

Was a challenge but I tracked down the OVT on special order and then I gonna have to use the 7400 via brushing apparently as there is no 1400 out here.

I'll likely try spraying it and hopefully not clog things up. Back brushing really no biggie to me but it would be cool if I get away with doing the main application by spray.

Would be great to see a readily available product line offering both self priming solid oil base meant to go over other existing products and a semi trans penetrating oil deck stain for the horizontals.

Seems once a brand heads to acrylic for the solid then they do same for the horizontals...

Howabout it Wood Tux, Readyseal, or Bakers.. ya'll got something in the works of a solid? If it worked with hvlp or surflo and same color scheme as your standard stuff it would be the bomb!!

[PressurePros 248]

I have no problem runing Cabot's solid (with some Penetrol) running through my HVLP setup.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Questions for ya Ken..

Which solid?

What about the 65-6700 series..see a need for the penetrol there too?

Is it Floods Penetrol or other and how much is usual? I mean how many seconds zawn cup you usually shoot for?

Forgot all about this type thinner for oil...where is my brain today..argh.

The flotrol for paint is but a distant memory too..