Taking Private Land for Private Businesses

[MeiersEnterprises 14]

As many of you know, the Supreme Court ruled it to be ok for the govt to take away private homes and land to develop commercial properties in order to specifically increase the tax revenue in a particular city.

This has bothered me so much! This is a huge problem for all of us because once you go down this road, it will never stop. Huge corporations will take over! It's one thing to build a stadium and take a few homes with compensation, or widen a road and take some land, but this new ruling has dire effects on all of us.

Basically, if WalMart looked on the map and saw the perfect spot for a store, they can petition to take that land from anyone who lives or works there just because WalMart could bring in more taxes if it existed in that spot.

As I'm reading this morning, I came across this artice:

http://www.freestarmedia.com/hotellostliberty2.html

This is awesome! Someone in New Hampshire is going after Justice Souter's land. Souter was a supporter and voted for the land steeling act and I hope to God (for every American's sake) that they take his land and build a hotel called "The Lost Freedom Hotel". The hotel will include a museum, open to the public, featuring a permanent exhibit on the loss of freedom in America.

They should setup a pre-guest registration form on the net to prove how popular it would be for their city.

The Best Part: There are only 5 people on the board who can decide the fate of Souter's home. It only takes 3 to be convinced and The Lost Freedom Hotel will be in business!

[JFife 14]

CrownRoyal,

That was a good article! I personally shop at Walmart for about everything, and as a single male, I find it saves me between $50-$100 a month, on basic necessities like bathroom products and food. Over a year, that is a savings of about $1000. I know some don't shop at WM, usually as a political statement of some sort. I view it in the micro as opposed to the macro however, and see that it saves me $1000, to spend elsewhere or save. I choose to look at most things in a micro perspective, such as debt. I attempt to have as little personal debt as possible (though not always), and this is beneficial financially to me. But what if everyone in America did this?? Our entire economy would probably collapse (not an economist, but I suspect i'm right). So does that mean we should all take on as much debt as humanly possible?? I'll pass, there are enough others out there willing to do that.

My point about WM is simply that I don't think any of us are knowledgable enough about economics to determine exactly what kind of windfall they will have on our economy someday. I can point out articles by knowledgable people that say WM is great for the economy. And since it is so hard to predict the impact of a company that composes 2% of our GDP, whether it be good or bad, I'll err on the side of the micro and what helps me, today.

[PLD 14]

Every city I have ever lived in has those few farms that are literally surrounded by biz and subdivisions, but that farmer refuses to sell. I am sure you'd salute that guy, but my feeling is that he is cutting off his nose to spite his face, and is probably spending the latter years of his life cursing the govt/cities/etc., instead of just adapting, accepting that the world is a changing place, and moving on to something more to his liking and taking his memories of days gone to another place, and telling the stories to his grandchildren. That would be happiness to me, not fighting the govt and everyone around you in a losing battle.

It may not be happiness to you, but it is to that farmer. And he worked damn hard to buy that land and do with it as he pleases. It is his kingdom. The ability to own private property is what seperated the US from the serfdoms of old.

As regrettable as it is, I fully see the need for emminent domain. I cannot, however, find any legitimate use of it in which the final owner of the property is another private citizen. That is stealing.

Philip

[RyanH 14]

It's amusing, Jon, that you've yet to address the twice-issued challenge of relinquishing your property for the benefit of others. I'm guessing that so long as government is forcing the issue you're fine with it, but you don't want the responsibility yourself. You may be a great person, but your views (or those expressed here) are an anathema of freedom and I can tell you that when my rights and my freedoms are seized against my will for the benefit of someone else, I stop giving a damn about the other person and they then become the object of my affection. Personally, I think too many Americans are too stupid to appreciate the benefits of my acheivements and are undeserving of my efforts. Those who know me know I help those who are in true need, but those who refuse to help themselves or, even worse, rely upon my efforts with the understanding that BECAUSE of my efforts they have no need to help themselves, are left in the cold. People want to know why "rich" people use loopholes in the law to help themselves? It's because they are tired of the tax on their mind. And domain seizure (whether land property seizure, fiscal rape, or regulations to no end) will be the catalyst for the withdrawal of the American spirit.

--What luck for rulers that men don't think; Hitler

--You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind

word alone; Capone

[MeiersEnterprises 14]

I had to look up Anathema - lol

n. pl. a·nath·e·mas

1. A formal ecclesiastical ban, curse, or excommunication.

2. A vehement denunciation; a curse: “the sound of a witch's anathemas in some unknown tongue” (Nathaniel Hawthorne).

3. One that is cursed or damned.

4. One that is greatly reviled, loathed, or shunned: “Essentialisma belief in natural, immutable *** differencesis anathema to postmodernists, for whom sexuality itself, along with gender, is a ‘social construct’” (Wendy Kaminer).

[Jon 533]

Very interesting post, I have known Wal-Mart tells its suppliers how much they will pay for an item, it is no secret that they also harm people by they way of doing business.

I did not know Levi went that route and is not selling in WM, I do know that since they went totally overseas their product quality has sunk way down. I have always bought and worn only Levi jeans but the last few pairs have been totally crap, I took them back and replaced them with more carp. I sent a letter to the CEO of Levi explaining why I will probably not buy from them anymore due to the cheap quality etc. They offered me free jeans, I said NO THANK YOU but when you can offer the quality you used to make I will by again.

I have not heard back and that speaks loud to me admitting they know I am right.

Jon Fife is intitled to his opinion and I have no problem with that but to back the one company of all in the USA that cares little for it's employee's and vendors I do have a problem with.

Go bid them and watch them lie to your face that they pay $125 a month for twice a month or weekly cleaning of the whole front of the store, not just the entrance but the WHOLE STORE. I asked the manager to show me the invoice as there is no way anyone would work that cheap unless they need a writeoff. He refused, I walked away.

I still don't and won't support Wal-Mart, the most unfair company in the USA and other countries.

[Mike Williamson 198]

I still don't and won't support Wal-Mart, the most unfair company in the USA and other countries.

I have yet to see anyone post evidence that WalMart has been unfair. They may have some pretty aggressive business practices, and their cost cutting surely harms other smaller competitors, but that's not unfair, that's just business. If I move into your area and offer customers the same job you're doing for less, that's not unfair, that's simply me competing in the marketplace.

Whether Walmart will have long term detrimental effects on our economy remains to be seen. Either way, they're simply doing what we are all trying to do, grow their company and increase their profits. No one is forced to do business with Walmart, no one is forced to work at Walmart, and no one is forced to shop at Walmart. I can just as easily shop at Target or Kmart or Fred Meyer (wish we had them out here) or any of a number of other stores here in town. Sometimes I do. I don't like Walmart, but for different reasons. The two stores here are usually dirty, overcrowded with welfare recipients dragging their 6 screaming kids behind them, and noisy. Much nicer to shop at Kmart...I often feel like I have the whole store to myself.

Am I saying Walmart has never done anything unfair to a vendor, employee, or customer? Of course not...But for the most part, it appears to me to be a pretty fair and clean-nosed company.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Does anyone think Jon F. is perhaps fueling the post to keep it going? Not saying he is... I don't know. But I do wonder....

Beth

P.S. Glad to see everyone having fun in this thread! :groovy:

[Jon 533]

No Beth I am not doing that, no need to, if others don't want to post it ends.

Mike W. what is Fred Meyers? don't have any stores by the name out here but I assume it is like Target and Kmart?

Oh wait don't answer as that might keep this going. LOL

Beth I have said what my feelings are about wallyworld so won't repeat it again.

BETH again, which Jon F?

Jon F as in Fleischer?

OR

Jon F as in Fife?

OR

Both of us?

[MeiersEnterprises 14]

Does anyone think Jon F. is perhaps fueling the post to keep it going? Not saying he is... I don't know. But I do wonder....

Beth

P.S. Glad to see everyone having fun in this thread! :groovy:

It's almost like Jon F is on the fence of every issue. He really doesnt followup and commit to either side but hes always hanging both his legs over (similar to the French). I think Jon would be quite successful in Canada where the taxes are 60% and insurance on a $2000 car is $5600/yr and everybody has health insurance. The cool thing about govt funded health insurance is that you have to wait 9 months and drive 600 miles to get knee surgery and the govt pays your salary when youre not working and gives you FREE PAINKILLERS to boot! You should look into that Jon. Dont get mad - just havin some fun.

I mentioned walmart being the company that could take your land but really, under this new law, it could be any business that can convince the officials that they could bring in substantial tax revenue. I would however like Starbucks to take my neighbors land so i could tap into tmobile internet and drink lots of frapuccinos. My DSL is costing me 50 bucks a month which i could be spending on coffee. lol

[Mike Williamson 198]

No Beth I am not doing that, no need to, if others don't want to post it ends.

Mike W. what is Fred Meyers? don't have any stores by the name out here but I assume it is like Target and Kmart?

Oh wait don't answer as that might keep this going. LOL

Beth I have said what my feelings are about wallyworld so won't repeat it again.

BETH again, which Jon F?

Jon F as in Fleischer?

OR

Jon F as in Fife?

OR

Both of us?

Fred Meyer is basically an upscale version of a super walmart...groceries, household goods, clothes, etc etc etc. Very nice stores. They're all over the west coast, but apparently not so much in Southern CA.

They're affiliated with Kroger

I think Beth was referring to Jon Fife.

[Mike Williamson 198]

I know I'm the last one who should be saying this, but do we really need personal insults?

It's almost like Jon F is on the fence of every issue. He really doesnt followup and commit to either side but hes always hanging both his legs over (similar to the French). I think Jon would be quite successful in Canada where the taxes are 60% and insurance on a $2000 car is $5600/yr and everybody has health insurance. The cool thing about govt funded health insurance is that you have to wait 9 months and drive 600 miles to get knee surgery and the govt pays your salary when youre not working and gives you FREE PAINKILLERS to boot! You should look into that Jon. Dont get mad - just havin some fun.

I mentioned walmart being the company that could take your land but really, under this new law, it could be any business that can convince the officials that they could bring in substantial tax revenue. I would however like Starbucks to take my neighbors land so i could tap into tmobile internet and drink lots of frapuccinos. My DSL is costing me 50 bucks a month which i could be spending on coffee. lol

[Jon 533]

Agreed Mike, and Jon Fife is a friend so he knows I would not attack him and I hope no one else does either.

It is ok to state an opinion even if it goes against what others have said but let's keep the personal stuff out of things, not only in this thread but on the board.

Remember this board is not like any other and we plan to keep it that way.

Fun, clean, good post, good replies, fun clean jokes and more but no personal attacks.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I meant Jon Fife. :cool:

And we are all just having fun...

I may not agree with his point of view, but its his view and he's entitled to it.

I understand he's selling his house to Walmart? (kidding)

Beth :cup: :sunshine:

[JFife 14]

Ok, my chubby little fingers cannot type fast enough to respond to everything, but I'll respond to a few things,

Being a french/canadian anathema (feeling that my gender and sexuality are a social construct),:) I'd like to say Meier wasn't insulting me in his post; he was just harrassing a little and I can take it, nothing better than a good argument. I watch Hannity and Colmes like a religion. Before yesterday, I'd have been really insulted to be called French, but did you hear Jacques Chirac's comments about the English and their food?!? That was awesome!! I at least developed some respect for him at that point.

Beth is correct to an extent, I am being a bit of a devil's advocate, but only because I can at least see the other side of the issue, and cannot call it black and white. If it were, it wouldn't be at the high court. For those that think the farmer that has been in the same spot for 50yrs, and has seen his farm surrounded on every side by strip malls and suberbia, and is sitting there loving life......well, i appreciate your argument for the sake of argument, but let's be serious. You think they are HAPPY about that???? Happy to hear cars honking and guys out pwashing the storefronts at all hours of the night?? My view is also an opinion, but I cannot imagine they are thrilled about that. I'd guess they think it sucks to try and navigate their tractor on a six-way. Why not sell out for the big bucks when you can, buy another farm where you'll be alone and happy, and stop trying to prove a point?? I hold no hostility to these people, just don't understand it. I don't see a farm in the middle of town and say, "man, I wish that was a bunch of McMansions". I see it and say, "man, that guy is stupid not to take all of that money."

RyanH, you've been adament that I answer your analogy about giving you my equipment to help others, and I'd have to say I need to see the numbers. I believe you were using this analogy in regards to my example about the guy back in MO that wouldn't sell his farm to Walmart Distribution, so I'll continue with those #'s.

Land in that area would probably sell for $1000/ac, and if they wanted 100ac that is $100,000. Now, i guess this new biz would have added significantly to property value in the area, would have brought jobs to those without (much needed), supported local stores and services (new homes, remodels, apts, food, restraunts,etc). How much do you think the benefit of this would have exceeded $100,000??? Ten times?? 100 times?? More?? So for the sake of answering your analogy, if giving you my equipment would help people 100 times more than the value of the equipment, come get it. That would be a no-brainer for me, and at that point I'd be out of a job, and i'd let the Law of Reciprocity kick in. Now, you said "give" you my equipment, whereas this guy could have sold for fair market value or higher, so to be more correct in the analogy, you'd give me market value for equipment, it would benefit others 100times greater than that amount, I've gotta go to the trouble of buying new equipment, everyone else is fat and rich, and I am hero, and I've got two hot broads telling me how generous I am, and that it is really nice to see such a caring guy. Who loses??

[MeiersEnterprises 14]

I just said that in fun to make my point. Maybe that was a little TOO direct. Sorry for that - I was smiling while I wrote it though if that makes a difference ;)

I completely respect Jon F for his opinions - Im just trying to change them. lol

[Mike Williamson 198]

For those that think the farmer that has been in the same spot for 50yrs, and has seen his farm surrounded on every side by strip malls and suberbia, and is sitting there loving life......well, i appreciate your argument for the sake of argument, but let's be serious. You think they are HAPPY about that???? Happy to hear cars honking and guys out pwashing the storefronts at all hours of the night?? My view is also an opinion, but I cannot imagine they are thrilled about that. I'd guess they think it sucks to try and navigate their tractor on a six-way. Why not sell out for the big bucks when you can, buy another farm where you'll be alone and happy, and stop trying to prove a point?? I hold no hostility to these people, just don't understand it. I don't see a farm in the middle of town and say, "man, I wish that was a bunch of McMansions". I see it and say, "man, that guy is stupid not to take all of that money."

Stupid, maybe, but the point is, it should be his CHOICE to sell or not sell. Who's to say the property won't be worth 50 times market value in 10 years...who is Walmart to take away this guy's potential to make even more money down the road? The government just should not be allowed to step in and take one person's private property and give it to another person (or corporation) simply for the reason of increased tax revenues. If the county needs more tax, raise the tax rate. That farmer should have the choice to sit there hating the city that has built up around him, or to sell and go enjoy life elsewhere. You don't have to understand his point of view to see that FORCING someone to give up their property to benefit others is wrong (keeping in mind that this is supposed to be a free capitalist nation, not a socialist nation). Maybe that farmer was born in that house....Whatever his reasons for desiring to keep his property, I don't feel I have the right to take it from him to benefit myself.

RyanH, you've been adament that I answer your analogy about giving you my equipment to help others, and I'd have to say I need to see the numbers. I believe you were using this analogy in regards to my example about the guy back in MO that wouldn't sell his farm to Walmart Distribution, so I'll continue with those #'s.

Land in that area would probably sell for $1000/ac, and if they wanted 100ac that is $100,000. Now, i guess this new biz would have added significantly to property value in the area, would have brought jobs to those without (much needed), supported local stores and services (new homes, remodels, apts, food, restraunts,etc). How much do you think the benefit of this would have exceeded $100,000??? Ten times?? 100 times?? More?? So for the sake of answering your analogy, if giving you my equipment would help people 100 times more than the value of the equipment, come get it. That would be a no-brainer for me, and at that point I'd be out of a job, and i'd let the Law of Reciprocity kick in. Now, you said "give" you my equipment, whereas this guy could have sold for fair market value or higher, so to be more correct in the analogy, you'd give me market value for equipment, it would benefit others 100times greater than that amount, I've gotta go to the trouble of buying new equipment, everyone else is fat and rich, and I am hero, and I've got two hot broads telling me how generous I am, and that it is really nice to see such a caring guy. Who loses??

Again, you're using a situation where you have the CHOICE to give up your equipment for fair market value (of course, someone else is determining that for you) to benefit others. How about if the police simply show up, have your rig towed away, and write you a check for whatever they think it's worth, without asking your permission? You may be generous enough to live with that, but can you honestly say that's right?

I'd be willing to be that quite a few small business owners who would have been in direct competition with Walmart breathed a sigh of relief when Walmart moved 20 miles down the road.

[Larry B 55]

One thing everybody forgets in all their Wal-Mart bashing is just how it started. I would hope that all of us small business owners have the desire and determination, coupled with the business knowledge and plan, too succeed the way Wal-Mart has. They supply what the mass market demands. If people want a premium product and service they shop elswhere. If they can afford it they by a Mercedes instead of a Kia.

How many of you have gone out and purchased the top of the line equipment, use the best chems and professional grade products out there to your advantage. Do you feel sorry for the guy who is as good a business person as you but maybe through no fault of his own, cannot afford a $25,000 rig and works harder than you to make half as much? Maybe he has been in business longer than you, and then you move to his town and take his customers. To those people you are the Wal-Mart of pressure washing, deck restoration etc. How can they compete, they only have cold water, they don't get the volume discounts you do on chems and supplies?

As for Wal-Mart dictating the price of goods that they will purchase. Have none of you gone from one store/manufacturer and compared prices? I take these prices and let each one know what it will take to get my business. Match or beat the other guy or I am gone. They have the choice, give me the price/discount I want or I will buy from the other guy. If none of you are doing this, you are paying way too much for goods and supplies. It is smart business and I am looking out for myself and my profits, your suppliers aren't going to automatically give you their best price, they are looking our for themselves and trying to make as much profit as possible.

This is OUR Government taking property and reselling it to corporations and developers. This practice is fueled by government greed or it would never happen.

[tropical wave 22]

Are there any other countries anybody would rather live in ? we all (me included) get in quite a habit of moaning and groaning about how crappy things are, would anybody rather live in egypt, iran, somalia, cambodia etc etc...???? be lucky to own a mud hut or a mule.......

[PLD 14]

Are there any other countries anybody would rather live in ? we all (me included) get in quite a habit of moaning and groaning about how crappy things are, would anybody rather live in egypt, iran, somalia, cambodia etc etc...???? be lucky to own a mud hut or a mule.......

Michael,

No offense intended but that specific response REALLY gets my dander up everytime I hear it. First, let me play devils advocate for a moment...

How about we legalize rape? Outside of that small thing, we're still better than anywhere else.

How about we legalize torture for interrogation purposes so long as your lawyer is present? Outside of that small thing, we're still better than anywhere else.

How about we trash that pesky first amendment? Outside of that small thing, we're still better than anywhere else.

Just because we are better than anywhere else doesn't mean that we should tolerate attrocities so long as the sum of those attrocities doen't pull us down to the #2 spot.

On a less simplistic note, it is because of basic freedoms like private property rights that we are so successful. Take those away and you head back down that road to mud huts and mules..

[Mike Williamson 198]

Are there any other countries anybody would rather live in ? we all (me included) get in quite a habit of moaning and groaning about how crappy things are, would anybody rather live in egypt, iran, somalia, cambodia etc etc...???? be lucky to own a mud hut or a mule.......

It is the fact that this nation has more liberty and freedom than most that we CAN sit here moaning and groaning about the things that ARE wrong with our nation. If we all take the position you seem to have, nothing will ever change...In fact, things will likely get worse, since public apathy opens the floodgates for opportunists to take advantage. Of course I'd not want to live anywhere else, but that doesn't mean that I'm happy with every aspect of our nation, with every action of our government, or every infringement of my constitutional rights.

Just because someone comments about something they don't like doesn't mean they're saying this is a crappy country, or a lousy place to live. It means they don't like some particular aspect of this country. That's how change happens.

[tropical wave 22]

Phil and Mike,

I agree with both, 100%, and I gripe too, and if I was going to lose my property to a strip mall I'd be outraged and fight the fight with everything I had. I'm not saying its OK, because it is not, just taking a step back and realizing that this is still the best country to be from without bashing the USA...... we live like the fat cats on the planet and have more "stuff" than any of the 5 billion people we share it with (and I'm glad for that).. which is why we have a huge 2 sided problem: 3/4 of the planet wants to come here to live, work, prosper or just sponge our money, the other 1/4 wants us all dead, for the same reasons we love it here.

in my "other" job, ( a part of it) I have to deal with foreigners that come here (legally and not) make boatloads of money (legally and not) then smuggle it out, our job is to find the ones that are destined to the middle east to support the "jihad" against the West.....these people HATE us so bad, it is unbelievable!! even the ones that are not criminals, HATE us and our country, they just love our money.......when is the last time anybody has been to a dunkin donuts or 7-11 where English was spoken?? when I have to interview some of these people, they think we're all pigs, so I like to remind them that our borders are fairly open, the door swings both ways and if they dont like it here, they can go back to their mud huts and mules....

here, our PITA mayor is trying to expand O'Hare airport by scooping up entire neighborhoods in 4 chicago suburbs, 100's of homes and businesses...private folks as well as other cities are fighting against it, but unfortunately it looks like they're going to lose, the bigger, richer more powerful are going to win this one........... and I agree, it blows, and is wrong...........

and as Im typing this, Im seeing London being blown up as we go back to orange, so looks like no PW'n today....

[MeiersEnterprises 14]

tropical wave]Phil and Mike,

here, our PITA mayor is trying to expand O'Hare airport by scooping up entire neighborhoods in 4 chicago suburbs, 100's of homes and businesses...private folks as well as other cities are fighting against it, but unfortunately it looks like they're going to lose, the bigger, richer more powerful are going to win this one........... and I agree, it blows, and is wrong...........

This is a much different situation than what we're talking about though. The city is taking private land to expand a dangerous airport with a population expansion just like widening a road. Agree, Disagree (I disagree), at least it's something not necessarily driven by corporate greed. They are NOT taking private land to give to a bank or a supermarket or a shopping mall or a walmart.

[MeiersEnterprises 14]

Are there any other countries anybody would rather live in ? we all (me included) get in quite a habit of moaning and groaning about how crappy things are, would anybody rather live in egypt, iran, somalia, cambodia etc etc...???? be lucky to own a mud hut or a mule.......

Someone always uses this excuse. Drives me insane. That's the Ostrich putting his head in the sand mentality. What's the answer, sit back, do nothing, let the best country in the world go to sh%$...?

Under this new law, even if you had a mud hut and a mule here in the US, you could be FORCED to sell YOUR MUD HUT (that you built with your own hands) to build a bank or a grocery store or a convenience store or a hotel just because that company justified to the city that they could bring in more tax dollars for the town. See the point?

[Jon 533]

----------

To my buddy Jon Fife, that farmer who keeps his farm while tract homes, malls and businesses are built around his farm just may be to old to sell and go buy another farm and start all over again. Proding you to consider that side of it here so I shall expect a reply:)

MUD HUT, hey guys I ain't pressure washing anymore, can't afford the mud to built the hut! in fact even if I could I would see stars every evening as I would not be able to add a roof at the same time.

--------------

1st amendment, 2nd amendment, all of them are being changed or removed and our freedoms slowly taken from us. No longer can reporters be allowed to have confidential sources. Soon law abiding citizens will not be allowed to buy ammo, or guns for that matter and once that happens turn the clock back a century and half.

---------------

Talk about farmers, here in So. CA it used to be the 2nd largest dairy producing farming in the country, over the last 5 years the cities pushed the dairy farmers out, tract homes starting being built, people complained about the smell etc. No one told those people to buy THAT HOUSE, you could see and hear the cows and smell the air so they had no right to complain then go to court as a class action lawsuit to force them out. Most moved North to Bakerfield and now that city is saying NO MORE DAIRY FARMS. Watch your milk, ice cream, cheese and other dairy products prices go UP.

----------------

Would I move to another country, maybe, Remy and I have looked into both Mexico and Canada and who knows we just might chose one to retire to.

[tropical wave 22]

This is a much different situation than what we're talking about though. The city is taking private land to expand a dangerous airport with a population expansion just like widening a road. Agree, Disagree (I disagree), at least it's something not necessarily driven by corporate greed. They are NOT taking private land to give to a bank or a supermarket or a shopping mall or a walmart.

its the same situation....its all about money, the city wants to expand the huge airport to keep a third airport from being built in the south suburbs, which would take money (airlines, parking, workers, etc) from Chicago...its always about the bottom line, always