Price

[Russell Cissell 65]

After talking with another contractor today I became very curious about pricing. I've been specializing in wood restoration for over a decade. The price varies by region of the country and also from company to company within each market.

I am very interested to see how the prices here in the St. Louis market stack up with those nationwide.

[Dale 16]

Man I have to move to where you live! lol. If you figure that the actual sq.ft of a typical deck is about double that of the floor space, a 500 sq.ft deck @ $3. =$3000. + materials. Easy money! 2 500 footers a week and hit the lake. Just kidding, I assume you mean floor sq. footage?

[Deck Guy 14]

Again, it comes down to how you calculate square footage.

When you say 300 square feet, is that the floor area, or the floor and rails? A typical deck here that is 10x30, on the ground (which is rare), would have about 50 feet of railing. I multiply railing length by four to obtain square footage, so I would base my price for that deck on 500 square feet, and would charge about $450, and spend about four hours total on the job.

I shoot for about $70 an hour on deck work after direct expenses, so I'm in good shape there with only about $60-$70 in direct expenses on that project.

So it's either 300 multiplied by your cost per square foot, or 500 multiplied by mine. That explains the big difference in what we all charge "per square foot."

I also charge less per square foot on larger decks (using the economic theory of economy of scale), with price breaks at 400 and 900 square feet.

[Tom DeFrancesco 23]

Larry,

Prep, strip, brighten, dry and stain all in 4 hours ???????

[dsp powerwash 14]

I am sure however people price works for them, but i dont understand not pricing floor and rails seperatly. I can stain 300sf of floor in half an hour under the best situation spraying and probably roll and brush it in an hour., which is equal to 75 to 100 linear ft of rail.which would take much longer to stain and also longer to wash. any more i use sq ft to estimate materials, and just estimate the job by time. you can have two decks the same size and one could take twice as long as thre other. frank

[PressurePros 248]

I agree 100% Frank.

[plainpainter 217]

Frank - I always estimate a job by time and then work backwards to figure out my costs per sq. foot. I do agree that sq. feet of decking and railing is like comparing apples to oranges. How about keeping track of two different sq. footages. One for deck area and the other for railings - and work out your workrates and product useage for both situations seperately. I.E. let's say you charge $1.25/sq.ft. to clean and stain decking area - how about a seperate entry where you charge let's say $1.75/sq.ft. or railing area. If I take a certain amount of time to do railing I will be able to figure out a 'workrate' for it and then use that rate to estimate future projects. I guess sq. foot pricing is a holdover from G.C.'s wanting a quick and easy way to figure out how much it costs to build a house for estimation purposes. One Tiler once told me when you are tiling the jamb or corner of a shower stall - how do you figure that into sq. ft. pricing? There's no area, it's just a straight line.

-Dan

[jnoden 15]

I agree with you Dan. I charge seperate for the decking (includes skirting and post) and the railing. I also seperate the cost for stripping vs sealing. Steps are an extra charge and 2nd story decks have a surcharge between $40 and $80. Sealer is figured seperately depending on what the customer wants. Everybody seems to figure their estimates differently. When contractors post on this thread that they charge so much per sq ft, is that the flooring sq ft just added to the sq ft of the railing (height times length) and does that include the sealer?

[Deck Guy 14]

Larry,

Prep, strip, brighten, dry and stain all in 4 hours ???????

Absolutely, I don't charge for the time it takes to dry, but then again, I don't sit there and watch it dry either. Do you?

Prep, strip, brighten (with x-jet), 1 1/2 hours.

Stain with Deckscapes oil-based 2 1/2 hours.

Total=4 hours.

[Don M. 14]

you have to FEAR your customers into buying from you.....

I disagree. I would say build a relationship with someone and show them you care about them. Keep in touch with them and you'll have a customer for life.

I think you put too much "fear" into someone and they will say no thanks.

[Deck Guy 14]

i dont understand not pricing floor and rails seperatly.

What's the difference between pricing them separately and using a multiplying factor when pricing? Either way, you're getting more for the rails.

[Russell Cissell 65]

That depends on if you are estimating or guesstimating.

Square foot is the surface area of the wood that you have to restore and preserve. If you are going to clean it and seal it, you've got to count it. It would take a lot of time to precisely measure the exact square footage of surface so most contractors use some degree of guesstimation.

It is common for example to take the length of the hand rail times it's height to determine the actual surface area. This is not exact, but it is typically very close. You can take it to the next degree and just add six (6) foot to any side of the deck that has a rail. For instance a 10 X 10 deck with a house on one side would be calculated as 16 X 22 for a total of 352 square feet. By adding six foot to each side you pick up the area of the rail and the band board around the outside of the deck.

The closer you are to the actual surface area, the better able you are to estimate your material usage. It also helps you to track your material costs.

Estimating time is the other side of the coin. It is important for you to determine material usage but surface area it relative to the actual time on the job. It's hard to even type this without thinking about how much I hate handrails. Obviously if you are not spraying, an equal amount of handrail surface area is going to take much longer than the wide open surface area of a floor. If I were going to plug a number in I would say rail area warrants a factor of 1.5 or more If the floor takes an hour, the rail will take another hour and a half or more.

Now finally you have to think about bidding. Once you have figured out how long it will take and how much it will cost you in materials, it's easy to set a price. This difficulty comes in presenting that information to your customer in a way they can accept. Sure, sometimes you can just say "I figure it'll be about $1,400.00 bucks" and they will jump right on it. If you don't want to catch yourself back peddling at the closing table, you should also be prepared to make them understand the "why" of your price if they should choose to challenge it.

The more detail you can collect for yourself, the better able you are to monitor your business. The less information you have to give your customers, the easier it is for them to understand your price. For instance, IMO, you may explain that the rails take longer than the deck the deck, that's simple to comprehend. You would not want to give them a lesson in calculating complex surface areas followed by your formula for calculating the price.

[Deck Guy 14]

Russ,

I'm not certain what you mean by guesstimate, but my materials usage seems to work out when I multiply the length of rails by four, and assume a certain coverage per square foot for a given product. That is my method for estimating the "actual surface area" as you call it. I generally finish within a gallon of my estimated stain usage per job, and have run shy only once this year.

My closing rate is about 90%, so I have no worries about how to convey my estimate to my customers. I know some people find selling the job to be difficult, but I enjoy BullSh***ing, so it's not hard for me. It's not rocket science...build a rapport with the customer, show my book while measuring the deck, explain the process, ask for the business, sign the contract, do the work. I have gotten jobs where I wasn't the lowest bidder, but most of my customers never even consider getting another bid.

[Electro 14]

I recommend throwing your unit pricing list in the garbage. Have production rates and figure (measure) everything that goes into job. Include setup, breakdown, actual hours worked on all items and remember you only get about 6.5 hours of actual work out of an 8 hour day. When I hear people comment that they can't get x for a job. I raise the following questions.

You need to understand only 5 things to be profitable in any service business:

1. Know your costs

2. Control your costs

3. Know your production rates

4. Control your production rates

5. Find a client base that fits in with your business model.

If you find yourself failing, it usually relates to 1 of the 5 items mentioned.

Number 5 is the clincher,

You can't sell steak to a vegetarian no matter how good the price.

A McDonald's will not do well in a neighborhood of wealthy people over 50.

And so on.

Brian

http://www.yourcostcenter.com

[Deck Guy 14]

5. Find a client base that fits in with your business model.

If you find yourself failing, it usually relates to 1 of the 5 items mentioned.

Number 5 is the clincher,

You can't sell steak to a vegetarian no matter how good the price.

A McDonald's will not do well in a neighborhood of wealthy people over 50.

And so on.

Brian

http://www.yourcostcenter.com

I couldn't agree more.

Luckily, my ad finds people who are genuinely interested in my service and who can afford it. It's not necessarily great closing skills that lead to great closing percentages. It can be the result of the ad placement and advertising type. Among my customers this year were several doctors, two attorneys, the CEO of a hospital, a bank president, the owner of a local manufacturing plant, and owners of a large internet based gift-basket business. Also, referrals produced almost 1/4 of my business this year.

[Russell Cissell 65]

I'm not certain what you mean by guesstimate, but my materials usage seems to work out when I multiply the length of rails by four, and assume a certain coverage per square foot for a given product. That is my method for estimating the "actual surface area" as you call it. I generally finish within a gallon of my estimated stain usage per job, and have run shy only once this year.

Larry

I have seen contractors go to great lengths to measure the surface area of a baluster then multiply that out by the number of balusters in the hand rail. The would then do the same for the posts, rails caps and so on. This is a very precise method of determining the surface area so could deliver an even closer "estimate" of material usage.

In construction they call it stick estimating. Some builders will break the "cost" of building a home down to the screws and glue. Others don't go much beyond speculating that it will cost roughly "X" dollars per square foot.

When I say "guesstimate" I just mean that it is often much faster/easier to make an educated guess. As you said, you went the entire season never being off more than a gallon. You save tons of time by just using the static number four (4) on all rails rather than measure for the slight differences that occur from one rail to the next. So lets say that by actually measuring everything precisely you could cut that down to 1/2 gallon. The question becomes is it worth the extra time to narrow your margin of error by 1/2 gallon.

Sure doesn't seem like it to me.

I don't doubt your closing prowess. I was just speaking in general to the guy who might be less comfortable at the closing table. Sounds like you've got your marketing dialed in. When you've got the right message in front of the audience closing is as easy as doing them a favor.

Do you think there is any thing in particular about your message that works so well among the more discerning audience that you target?

[PressurePros 248]

Larry, if your close ratio is 90% your prices are too low. 60% is considered an outstanding close ratio. If you go over that you are working harder not smarter (more jobs, same money)

[Mike Sullivan 15]

Hey guys, I just bid on cleaning and sealing with one coat of Cabot's Natural Clear Solution at an apt. complex yesterday. I got a referral from a faithful client and talked me up pretty good to the apartment manager.

I was lucky enough to see my competitors bids! He actually showed them to me, first time that has happened.

I was very appalled at how low their prices were....:banghead:

I probably won't get the job. Even if I sold myself like crazy and had everything covered, insurance, website, referrences, quality, etc. Owners of big commercial properties rarely take the highest bid from my experience. Usually the lowest. Here is my price and competitors.

MY BID

25,800 square feet of wood - clean & seal at $1.00/square foot= $25,800

COMPETITOR 1

25,800 sq.ft - clean & seal at $0.72/square foot= $18,000

COMPETITOR 2

25,800 sq.ft - clean & seal at $0.32/square foot= $8,000

THERE IS NO WAY I SHOULD CHARGE LESS THAN a $1 per square foot to clean and seal wood with $20/gallon high quality sealer on commercial properties.

Would everyone agree????????????

[Celeste 341]

I was very appalled at how low their prices were....:banghead:

MY BID

25,800 square feet of wood - clean & seal at $1.00/square foot= $25,800

COMPETITOR 1

25,800 sq.ft - clean & seal at $0.72/square foot= $18,000

COMPETITOR 2

25,800 sq.ft - clean & seal at $0.32/square foot= $8,000

THERE IS NO WAY I SHOULD CHARGE LESS THAN a $1 per square foot to clean and seal wood with $20/gallon high quality sealer on commercial properties.

Would everyone agree????????????

Good thing they didn't call us....we'd have been doing CPR when they saw our bid. We wouldn't begin to clean and seal for only a $1.00! Even factoring in the large amount of square footage we'd have been higher by at least another .50/sq.

[Don M. 14]

$8000 dollars for that much? I'm sure that is going to be a quality job.

[Mike Sullivan 15]

Good thing they didn't call us....we'd have been doing CPR when they saw our bid. We wouldn't begin to clean and seal for only a $1.00! Even factoring in the large amount of square footage we'd have been higher by at least another .50/sq.

I know, I have never charged that little for wood before. My original price was $30,000. I went down to a $1 because of the competition. I will still make decent money if I get the job, because the wood is only a year old, hasn't even turned gray yet and it will clean up easy and fast. Sealer should spread well since the wood is not as dry as old wood. Probably about 200 square feet per gallon, I would guess. I usually charge $1.50 - $3.00 per square foot depending on product, height, and condition of wood for residential.

[Celeste 341]

You don't know how glad I am to hear that Mike!

Celeste

[seymore 90]

Hey guys, I just bid on cleaning and sealing with one coat of Cabot's Natural Clear Solution at an apt. complex yesterday. I got a referral from a faithful client and talked me up pretty good to the apartment manager.

MY BID

25,800 square feet of wood - clean & seal at $1.00/square foot= $25,800

COMPETITOR 1

25,800 sq.ft - clean & seal at $0.72/square foot= $18,000

COMPETITOR 2

25,800 sq.ft - clean & seal at $0.32/square foot= $8,000

THERE IS NO WAY I SHOULD CHARGE LESS THAN a $1 per square foot to clean and seal wood with $20/gallon high quality sealer on commercial properties.

Would everyone agree????????????

WOW that's a lot of wood to clean and seal! How many guys you would have working that job?

I take it these are small decks and you will have to move all your equipment from building to building PITA huh ?

How old is the wood and no stripping just cleaning?

I would have to bid the cleaning estimating hourly but damm a job that big it would be hard to figure out till you actually get started and see how things go.

[Deck Guy 14]

Larry, if your close ratio is 90% your prices are too low. 60% is considered an outstanding close ratio. If you go over that you are working harder not smarter (more jobs, same money)

60% is an outstanding close ratio in what business? Is it the same for pre-paid funeral plans as it is for mobile homes sales or home alarms? I wonder what the closing rate is for the guys who sell meat out of their trunk? I'd like to see some documentation on closing rates for deck restoration in Missouri (or better yet, my zip code). Now that would be informative! How does that percentage account for ad placement and design? I don't claim to be the best closer around but...

If your theory is right, everyone everywhere should advertise anywhere and everywhere it generates the most calls without regard to a targeted demographic, and let your 60% closing rate theory increase their business. Is it possible that I just get more calls from people who are truly interested due to my ad placement and design? Or is it possible some schmuck somewhere only closes 30% of his calls, so we average each other out?

My advertising theory (from here forward to be known as "The Larry Davis- Don't compete with your competition," theory)is this...I don't advertise beside pressure washing companies, even though the daily paper I run my ad in has a specific heading for that. If I did, I would only get the readers who are looking for a pressure washing company to work on their deck. I advertise under Home Improvements, and spend a bit for for color (not many do), double the ad size (not many do that either), and get position at the top of the page by purchasing at least three months at a time. If I decide to try Roof Cleaning, I will do it exactly the same. My ad stands out enough that people can't help but see it (the only Deck Restoration one in the paper), and it reminds them that they need my service. My ad finds them, not the other way around. A lot of my customers say they saw my ad, and were compelled to call. In other words, they weren't even looking for my service until they saw my ad! That's what keeps me from having to compete with other companies, and gets me the business. My customers call me first, and often don't look any further. I also keep my truck clean, try to present a professional appearance, and try to price the work fairly.

Given your 60% closing rate theory...Let's say you send out 1000 flyers and get 20 calls for bids. Would you expect the same closing rate from them as from as from customer referrals? Of course not. Some callers have greater potential than others, and those are the ones I look for.

I've talked to, and seen bids, from others in my area who do decks, and our prices are nearly identical. In fact, in the example given earlier in this thread, I believe they would be identical. Like I said earlier in this thread, I try for about $70 an hour on the job. That may not be enough for you to keep your head above water, but I have relatively low expenses, and only do decks. I have a cold water 4GPM machine (now three years old), airless sprayer (also three years old),chems from RPC and Pressure Tech, and stains from Sherwin Williams ($17 gallon) and Ready Seal. Of course I also have business licenses, insurance and such, but those costs are under $1000 annually. Another benefit of only doing wood is that I don't have to own a huge hot-water rig and trailer, along with the maintenence and other costs associated with them. Lower overhead means I can make more $$$ even if my pricing was identical with someone with the bigger rig and higher overhead.

I just re-read this before posting and see that I'm getting defensive. I'll let it go now.

[Don M. 14]

Hey Larry, you better hop on that roof cleaning in Cape before I do. LOL

[Mike Sullivan 15]

WOW that's a lot of wood to clean and seal! How many guys you would have working that job?

I take it these are small decks and you will have to move all your equipment from building to building PITA huh ?

How old is the wood and no stripping just cleaning?

I would have to bid the cleaning estimating hourly but damm a job that big it would be hard to figure out till you actually get started and see how things go.

I will have two guys and myself.

They are wood walkways and steps with vinyl rails. Three story buildings. The second floor and third floor is wood, bottom is concrete. I will have to rinse all the vinyl and concrete. Wood is only one year old nothing on it, hasn't even turned gray yet. I will only need Sodium Percarbonate to clean the covered sections and brighten with oxalic on just the outside walkways exposed to the elements. Only one side per building, so my hoses will reach easily. "Did I just give too much information?" I hope my comp doesn't see this.

If a miracle happens and the red sea parts, and they call me to do it, this will be my largest job since I started in 1999.