What will happen to iraq?

[Guest Danebob]

Well i would just like to know some thoughts on the war. What is your position now that we are looking at new elections which could turn the the direction of the war. Pulling out is a scary thought. I belive in the war. I have friends family who have been and are going to iraq. It is a real thing to me. I've grown up in the military. The democrats talking about pulling out of iraq is goining to be pushed to occur quickly im afraid. if it happens...well lets just pray that it dosn't.

So what other comments on this subject are out there?

Thanks. GOD SPEED!

[PLD 14]

Poor planning

Poor planning, poor planning poor planning

VERY POOR PLANNING

All right Mr. Rumsfield, what would you have done?

God Bless America and our wonderful troops

Yep, I don't have time to waste on all this war crap, I've got to get back to waxing my SUV and cleaning my pool. God bless America and screw all those brown people. Hell, they are poor as dirt anyway. Let 'em kill one another off and then we'll take their land.

Democrats = party of the common man My Ass!

[PLD 14]

If the payoff isn’t obvious and predictable, the rational thing to do is pull out and minimize troop casualties. Any other path is just guessing.

Sometimes the payoff is not progress but rather damage control. Look back at history and see how many countries were invaded and then collapsed into a worse state of affairs after the invaders pulled out to soon.

Afghanistan is one.

Germany is another.

And although we didn't technically invade the Soviet Union, we were instrumental in it's downfall. And we did nothing afterwards to stabilize them. The result is much unrest in the former soviet states as the power vacuum taht was left behind was often filled by dictators.

[PLD 14]

Dead is dead, whether at the hands of Saddam, insurgents, or the U.S. I know that war is hell, but if we are there to save these people from this despicable ruler, but they are still dying, what have we accomplished?

Actually it's simplistic thought like "dead is dead' that help justify horrible strategic decisions.

Here's the reality of the situation:

1. The past: Saddam is murdering hundreds of thousands of people, mostly political dissidents.

2. Recently: We went into Iraq and DESTROYED their ability to police and defend themselves. Many civilians were killed. Unfortunate, but such an action is neccessary to take control of a country and minimize US losses. The alternatives were keep #1, or suffer the casualties ourselves in a protracted ground war.

3. The present: Small factions that would ordinarliy be crushed in a stable political climate (free or dictatorial) are now able to operate. They are fighting (and killing) for control of the country. If they get it, mayhem will ensue (i.e. Darfur). Such is always expected in an unstable state. Why do they attack US forces? Because they NEED us to leave now. If we stay and establish law & order, they will be crushed. FWIW, one of these "factions" is Al Quaeda.

4. The future: What happens next? Chaos or law & order? Can it be accomplished and by whom?

People were dying in mass. People are dying in mass. And unless the situation changes, people will continue dying in mass. Obviously who is doing the killing is immensely important as only one the players plans to kill for awhile and stop. All the other players plan to keep killing as long as it serves their own interests.

[PLD 14]

You know this whole thread has me completely disgusted with many of you. Are you really the type of people that would walk away from a gang of thugs beating up an old lady? Are you really so selfish that if you tried to help out and you started getting hurt, you would run away and leave her to fend for herself?

For God's sake! We are the richest, most powerful, country in the history of the world. I have more food in my pantry than many whole villages on this dirtball, and more money in my pocket than 1/2 the worlds population makes in a year. I take more clothes to goodwill every year than most people will ever own, and burn enough fuel in a year to light up a small country. Even this computer I am typing on cost more than many people make in a lifetime.

How can you people sit at dinner and ask God to bless your meal knowing that you will throw away more food than many of his children will have to eat tonght.

Is it wrong to standup for the 98lb weeklings even if it means that your Polo shirt gets torn? If we cannot stand up for the poor, huddled masses, who will?

[Deck Guy 14]

Here is one thing we haven't discussed. Should we allow the wishes of the Iraqi people to determine our actions so far as staying or pulling out? Do they have a say in their own destiny?

[danster 15]

You know this whole thread has me completely disgusted with many of you. Are you really the type of people that would walk away from a gang of thugs beating up an old lady? Are you really so selfish that if you tried to help out and you started getting hurt, you would run away and leave her to fend for herself?

For God's sake! We are the richest, most powerful, country in the history of the world. I have more food in my pantry than many whole villages on this dirtball, and more money in my pocket than 1/2 the worlds population makes in a year. I take more clothes to goodwill every year than most people will ever own, and burn enough fuel in a year to light up a small country. Even this computer I am typing on cost more than many people make in a lifetime.

How can you people sit at dinner and ask God to bless your meal knowing that you will throw away more food than many of his children will have to eat tonght.

Is it wrong to standup for the 98lb weeklings even if it means that your Polo shirt gets torn? If we cannot stand up for the poor, huddled masses, who will?

pldoolittle,

You are right and feel the same way as you, but then again we are in a free country and we have a right to an opinion. Although we all have different views, morals and opinions, the majority have said enough is enough. The way to end it, well..... that's going to open a whole other can of worms.

Deck Guy,

You have a good idea, it would be there first major decision as a democratic and free society :)

Dan

[kevinw 14]

Kevin,

When speaking of the Iran/Iraq war, I was addressing civilian casualties, not casualties in general as you quote in portions of your posts. I agree that all stats in regards to either are speculative at best, since each side claims great victory and minimal casualties. Civilians under Saddam may have been vulnerable to attack during the conflict, but that is very different than him killing them. Both countries attacked civilian targets in that conflict as the war progressed.

I don't know what you intended to say, but what you did say was that the accepted number of deaths in Saddam' reign was 600,000 of which 500,000 died as casualties of the Iran-Iraq war. Then you implied that I was trying to create the impression that 500,000 Iraqis died at the hands of death squads and such. The facts are that over 400,000 bodies have been discovered in mass graves, and nearly 300,000 people disappeared while Saddam was in power. Your 500,000 number is off by 50 - 70%.

You seem to be saying that the majority of these deaths resulted during the Iran-Iraq War, which is incorrect. You also seem to be implying that there weren't many deaths due to death squads and such, which is incorrect.

I'm just saying that civilians are dying now too, and possibly at a higher rate than when Saddam was in power, given that he ruled for 24 years.

Certainly it is at a higher rate than when Saddam was in power! There is a war going on. But, before you get to dismissive, if you just do a little averaging...Saddam only murdered an average of 16,000 people/year minimally. Wait a minute...16,000 X 3 = 48,000. Wow, you're right...they are being killed a little faster now...that's like an increase of 2,000/year. I see your point now.

Dead is dead, whether at the hands of Saddam, insurgents, or the U.S. I know that war is hell, but if we are there to save these people from this despicable ruler, but they are still dying, what have we accomplished?

Are you telling me you don't see a difference? Do you believe there was any reason to believe things would ever get better under Saddam, after his 25 year track record? Do you believe that there is a possibility that things will get better without Saddam in office? We've accomplished the creation of a possibility that didn't exist before, a hope that didn't exist before...whether it becomes more than a possibility is up to the people that are deciding what comes next. That's why I pray for them every day and night...that they will have the wisdom to make the right decisions.

I know a lot of guys that would take strong exception to your statement that dead is dead. But, every worm is entitled to an opinion.

[kevinw 14]

Here is one thing we haven't discussed. Should we allow the wishes of the Iraqi people to determine our actions so far as staying or pulling out? Do they have a say in their own destiny?

Didn't I just see on the news where the duly elected head of Iraq was just in meetings with GW and said they wanted us to stay. That would make him a representative of the people of Iraq...giving them a say in their own destiny.

Or did you mean should we allow the CNN poll results determine our actions so far as staying or pulling out?

[kevinw 14]

Is it wrong to standup for the 98lb weeklings even if it means that your Polo shirt gets torn? If we cannot stand up for the poor, huddled masses, who will?

Now I'm nervous...Philip and I are agreeing on something. I've got to check the weather, hell may be freezing over. Holy cow, it's a flying pig!

[Jeff 232]

Didn't I just see on the news where the duly elected head of Iraq was just in meetings with GW and said they wanted us to stay. That would make him a representative of the people of Iraq...giving them a say in their own destiny.

Or did you mean should we allow the CNN poll results determine our actions so far as staying or pulling out?

The Iraq leader also said he wants us to start getting out by June 07, do you think it will be won by then?

Do you want us to stay indefinitly?

What in your opinion can be done, so we can say we are victorious?

I cant see how we can reach victory. We could start a draft and put 1 million guys over there and we couldnt get them to stop killing each other or us

It is only getting worse, nothings being built. well over a year and a half ago I heard from the admin, that they would have Iraqee combat ready troops and police that could handle the country. Hell their Police have death squads doing a lot of the killing.

Damn I wish we never went in, the middle east is screwed and getting worse. Bush calls them Axis of Evil and the Iranians only get more clout in the middle east. His democratize the middle east plan is totally back firing. I dont want to lose this war, but we already are losing the whole thing.

I just see it as a no win situation, that should of been thought out better. Like Donald Rumsfeld said, They will greet us as liberators ( They did for a few weeks) He said it would cost us 10billion Dollars then the Iraq oil would pay for the rest ( 10 billion the first few months)

I heard 2 years ago **** Chenney say we have the insurgents on the run ( We dont)

They either are liars, blind or stupid because nothing they predicted has come true. Im wrong they did get Saddam, but now Iran has nothing to fear and may end up being the top dogs of the middle east. Great plan GW

You can not as our president just sit in the Whitehouse and only listen to one side. He should of listened to Collin Powell, but instead he choose not to and ended up getting rid of the one man with the most experience and knowledge. He's our President but I think he has let us all down, by only having tunnel vision, his vision for the middle east is a bust and its a shame

If there was some golden plan that would really work I'd support it, but stay the course isnt really a plan is it, its just words

JL

[kevinw 14]

The Iraq leader also said he wants us to start getting out by June 07, do you think it will be won by then?

Do you want us to stay indefinitly?

What in your opinion can be done, so we can say we are victorious?

Define victorious. I believe we could pull out now and claim victory...we booted Saddam and overthrew his legacy of butchery. But if we pull out now, the country will fall. I don't think anybody thinks we should stay indefinitely...I haven't heard that statement anywhere.

I cant see how we can reach victory. We could start a draft and put 1 million guys over there and we couldnt get them to stop killing each other or us

Pretty anecdotal statement. You have a right to your opinion, but you don't know whether that would work or not. It bothers me to see that kind of emotional response, it's awfully inflammatory.

It is only getting worse, nothings being built. well over a year and a half ago I heard from the admin, that they would have Iraqee combat ready troops and police that could handle the country. Hell their Police have death squads doing a lot of the killing.

This is just plain incorrect. Jeff, we're building there every day...restoring electricity, water, hospitals, schools...then you shoot off that we're not building anything. Talk to some of the troops that are there, they will tell you you are wrong!

I never heard anybody say that the Iraqi troops and police would be ready to take over by now...I heard them say we're going to make them self sufficient as fast as we can...but no promises that it would be done by now. Again, talk to some of the troops...you will discover that they're having a hard time finding Iraqis that can read and write. Do a little homework before you make these statements.

I think if we talk to the Iraqis, we would find some of them that say, "Every U.S. soldier is taking our men to prison, stripping them, putting them in humiliating positions, and taking their pictures to make fun of them." They would be just as inaccurate as you are. Some of the Iraqis troops and police are involved with the insurgents...but not all. Do you like being called a racist bigot just because you're from South Carolina? That's what you just did regarding the Iraqis.

Damn I wish we never went in, the middle east is screwed and getting worse. Bush calls them Axis of Evil and the Iranians only get more clout in the middle east. His democratize the middle east plan is totally back firing. I dont want to lose this war, but we already are losing the whole thing.

Let me ask you a question, when you didn't get your first job you had proposed to a PM, did you say you were never going to get a job? How about when you didn't get your second...third? Why would you assume that something as complicated as the situation in Iraq would go smoothly when we can't even control our little businesses smoothly? The situation in the Mideast is complex, there will be lots of negotiation, give and take, setbacks, and disappointments before it reaches positive results. Do you think throwing in the towel is going to make anything better?

I just see it as a no win situation, that should of been thought out better. Like Donald Rumsfeld said, They will greet us as liberators ( They did for a few weeks) He said it would cost us 10billion Dollars then the Iraq oil would pay for the rest ( 10 billion the first few months)

I heard 2 years ago **** Chenney say we have the insurgents on the run ( We dont)

They either are liars, blind or stupid because nothing they predicted has come true. Im wrong they did get Saddam, but now Iran has nothing to fear and may end up being the top dogs of the middle east. Great plan GW

You can not as our president just sit in the Whitehouse and only listen to one side. He should of listened to Collin Powell, but instead he choose not to and ended up getting rid of the one man with the most experience and knowledge. He's our President but I think he has let us all down, by only having tunnel vision, his vision for the middle east is a bust and its a shame

You made a lot of conclusions and assumptions that don't tie together. A little bit of truth in your comments, but you've changed the context. You misquoted Rumsfeld, took Cheney's comments out of context, and missed with Powell altogether. You have strong feelings, which is good. We have different opinions, which is good. But a lot of the stuff you're using to validate your statements are incorrect.

If there was some golden plan that would really work I'd support it, but stay the course isnt really a plan is it, its just words

I'd love to hear a better idea...believe me...my son is headed over there soon. My concern is that we've just put a different crew in place, and they're not coming up with any better ideas. Anybody can criticize, but I believe that if you're going to throw rocks you're obligated to propose a solution. I'm still listening to hear that proposal.

[Jeff 232]

Define victorious. I believe we could pull out now and claim victory...we booted Saddam and overthrew his legacy of butchery. But if we pull out now, the country will fall. I don't think anybody thinks we should stay indefinitely...I haven't heard that statement anywhere.

Pretty anecdotal statement. You have a right to your opinion, but you don't know whether that would work or not. It bothers me to see that kind of emotional response, it's awfully inflammatory.

This is just plain incorrect. Jeff, we're building there every day...restoring electricity, water, hospitals, schools...then you shoot off that we're not building anything. Talk to some of the troops that are there, they will tell you you are wrong!

I never heard anybody say that the Iraqi troops and police would be ready to take over by now...I heard them say we're going to make them self sufficient as fast as we can...but no promises that it would be done by now. Again, talk to some of the troops...you will discover that they're having a hard time finding Iraqis that can read and write. Do a little homework before you make these statements.

I think if we talk to the Iraqis, we would find some of them that say, "Every U.S. soldier is taking our men to prison, stripping them, putting them in humiliating positions, and taking their pictures to make fun of them." They would be just as inaccurate as you are. Some of the Iraqis troops and police are involved with the insurgents...but not all. Do you like being called a racist bigot just because you're from South Carolina? That's what you just did regarding the Iraqis.

Let me ask you a question, when you didn't get your first job you had proposed to a PM, did you say you were never going to get a job? How about when you didn't get your second...third? Why would you assume that something as complicated as the situation in Iraq would go smoothly when we can't even control our little businesses smoothly? The situation in the Mideast is complex, there will be lots of negotiation, give and take, setbacks, and disappointments before it reaches positive results. Do you think throwing in the towel is going to make anything better?

You made a lot of conclusions and assumptions that don't tie together. A little bit of truth in your comments, but you've changed the context. You misquoted Rumsfeld, took Cheney's comments out of context, and missed with Powell altogether. You have strong feelings, which is good. We have different opinions, which is good. But a lot of the stuff you're using to validate your statements are incorrect.

I'd love to hear a better idea...believe me...my son is headed over there soon. My concern is that we've just put a different crew in place, and they're not coming up with any better ideas. Anybody can criticize, but I believe that if you're going to throw rocks you're obligated to propose a solution. I'm still listening to hear that proposal.

I wish I knew how to use the multi quote button

Let me start with wishing your family and your brave son a Merry Xmas and yes even as liberal as some think I am , I'll pray for your son and your family tonight and I wish him luck and I thank him very much for serving our great country

I'll try to answer some of your responses

1) I cant define victorous in this war. Stay until the job is done, could be indefinitly

2) It isnt inflammatory. I personally cant see victory any way. Plus if we sent 1 million would it stop the killing maybe reduce it, but it will start again when we move out

3) of course somethings are being built, they have to but they are destroying things as quick as they are being built in some cases. 3 years and only a small percentage has electricity more than a few hours a day. Id like things to be going better but they areant

Iraq troops be ready. .....I heard Rumsfeld & Bush say within a year they would have troops ready that was over 18 months ago, they do not have one regiment ready. This is fact these troops are barely being trained anymore because we need our troops to defend the areas they are in.

I know you want to believe a lot of what you say and dismiss a lot of what I say as rhetoric. But the fact is we are going backwards or at least just barely ahead of the game. Theres areas in Iraq that we sent troops to quite down and as soon as we are out they start the killing again. We can not police a entire country and there police arent stepping up

As for racist bigot......I say the hell with the Iraqees, they dont care about us and I really dont care about them and if this wasnt an oil region we never would have been there fighting this war

4) The middle east is complicated!!!!!!! And Bushes cowboy attitude saying that we are going into Iraq , no matter what everybody else says has made the middle east a more complicated place

Before 911 Bush had NO middle east policy after 911, he said we will democratize it, it doesnt work like that. Bush still has no middle east policy. I hate Iran & Syria, but even your enemys you should talk to. Its just like my competition, I talk to many of them to know whats going on with them.

Keep your enemys close, not Bush

Do I think throwing in the towel is the thing to do? NO!!! but give us a plan other than stay the course. What if we didnt get out of Vietnam, should we have not left there? should we have kept sending troops and money ?

5) Your wrong on some of this. I have NOT misquoted Rumsfeld. I heard him say it!!!!!!! I saw the whole thing. I heard Chenney say we have them on the run, I knew he was wrong then and I sure know he's wrong now.

All my statements and quote might not always be 100% but I keep abreast of current affairs I watch & listen to and read many left & right shows, papers etc. Rumsfeld said $10,000,000,000 NOT me, you are wrong, we all hear what we want but this is fact and so isnt many of my quotes of others and they are NOT out of context on everyone I quoted

6) A better Idea........Your absolutly right I have not heard any good Ideas from either party. I dont have all the answers, I'm just little ole me, the Damn Yankee from south Carolina. The only answer I have is to put the brakes on Bushes lack of planning and now with the little kick in the pants he got during the last election and some of whats coming out with the Jim Baker group, Maybe , Just Maybe he'll listen and work with others, I Hope & I pray.

Sir, God Bless your son. Please dont let him think just because we dont agree , that we dont love and thank him for what he does, I/we/all the american people do love him and thank him

[PLD 14]

To all you cut and run guys. I certainly hope that you never find your families life in hands of another who shares your viewpoint.

You can try and justify a pullout however you want. Cost, death toll, majority vote, Bush lied, plan sucks, whatever. Even if GW Bush is the anti-christ himself, that doesn't change the fact that we have already destroyed their military, police, and infrastructure, etc. and walking now is leaving them behind to be slaughtered. And that is wrong...

Sleep well knowning that you walked away and left the little old lady to die because you might get a black eye in the process...

[kevinw 14]

Jeff,

I think, at the end of the day, you and I agree that there needs to be a change. I doubt we'll agree on positions. However, I do respect your opinion and your right to it. I don't agree with where you're getting it from, but I respect it. I am confident that we both agree that it's a big mess, it hasn't gone well, and it's time for someone to decide what the conclusion will be and how we're going to get to that point

Let me share one piece of encouragement. I talk to my son a lot, he's at Ft. Bragg now. He tells me about the preparations that are being made, the training they are receiving, and the the attitude of the troops. They are proud of what they are doing. I don't want him to go, but I know that my son and our troops are the best ones for the job. They respect our nation's leaders, they respect GW. They are nervous about the change in Congress because it could put them in a more perilous position.

I think it is of highest importance that our troops hear our support, not our bickering. I didn't mean to jump down your throat...I get up every morning and go to bed every night knowing that my son, and the men and women he serves with, are putting their lives on the line for me and you...and for people in other parts of the world that can't defend themselves.

Thank you for your prayers for our troops. Do me a favor, add a prayer for our nation's leaders to have wisdom. They need it.

[Jeff 232]

To all you cut and run guys. I certainly hope that you never find your families life in hands of another who shares your viewpoint.

You can try and justify a pullout however you want. Cost, death toll, majority vote, Bush lied, plan sucks, whatever. Even if GW Bush is the anti-christ himself, that doesn't change the fact that we have already destroyed their military, police, and infrastructure, etc. and walking now is leaving them behind to be slaughtered. And that is wrong...

Sleep well knowning that you walked away and left the little old lady to die because you might get a black eye in the process...

Cut & Run guys, Phillip you always can make me laugh at least.

Pull out, we will have troops in that country probably for the rest of time

we have already destroyed their military, police & infrastructure etc, Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!! Because of poor planning!!!!!!!!!! So we are all just suppose to stay with how our President is running things, stay the course. NO F'in way, why should we.

Phillip your not one for welfare......But we'll be giving one side or the other in Iraq welfare for decades to come. I for one have never said get out tomorrow. But the Stay the course line ran out its time some time ago for me and I think the last election said that somewhat also.

Its not just cut & run liberals that voted the republicans out. Many republicans dont want us just to stay the course

Cut & Run is about a good of a statement as Stay the Course. The republican that say these cute one liners are about as useless as the statements themselves.

We and many that you would call cut & runners would stay and would like to finish the job. I didnt want us to go into Iraq when we did and I knew and said that back before we did go into Iraq. The nuts are running the asylum over there now, we are not, we have most our troops in Baghdad, just trying to keep a lid on, but even with all those troops there is TONS of violence every day and its getting worse, thats a course that we should not stay on

I would support stayin but give us reason to stay, give us a winable plan, give us leadership, give us truth, not just words

Cut & Run LOL

JL

[PressurePros 248]

Phillip, I am a person that stands up for the underdog. Always have and got my azz beat plenty of times throughout my life doing it. I guess growing older and understanding the futility of fighting certain battles has made me a bit more choosey in selecting my opponents. Back in the day, war meant conquering and gathering spoils. Now we fight to help those that cannot help themsleves. To what end? Why are we not occupying South Africa?

Do we not become the very bullies we seek to quelch the longer we occupy a foreign land? How do we win other than forcing our definition of democracy down their throats? Were we heroes in Irag two years ago? How about 2 days ago? Do you think it possible that we are starting to be thought of as potential oppressors by the Iraqi people? Perception is reality and I can tell you if a foreign military occupied my neigborhood for years I would begin to wonder what their intentions were despite the seemingly altruistic agenda they spout.

Helping an old lady against a gang of thugs is admirable. Dusting her off, making sure she is okay to stand on her feet and sending on her way is still a heroic act. Staying in that neighborhood and trying to lower the crime rate so she never has to worry about being attacked ever again is a lesson in futility. Thats not my job. Why does the US have to be the world's police? We are resented for it more often than not. Any country can study our model of democracy and is free to copy it. While not perfect, it seems to work pretty damn well based upon our standard of living. Why does my brother have to be killed? Why does my son have to take up arms? I don't live in an occupied country.

We have dismantled a serious threat to US security. I though thats what this whole war was about. That to me is what any international policing done by our country should be about. Do you wanna f*** with us? We will take you apart and guess what? We may not be there to put you back together again. Is your totalitarian government not working for you? We would be happy to show you how we do things here. Other than that, you are on your own.

Using your old lady analogy again, Phillip, suppose you were armed and shot one of the muggers, paralyzing him. Is it now your responsibility to look after his family indefinitely? Are you going to take the same stance and give a portion of your earnings to keep his family afloat? Are you going to send your son to his house to mow is grass.. paint his house?

It has to end somewhere.

[Jeff 232]

Jeff,

I think, at the end of the day, you and I agree that there needs to be a change. I doubt we'll agree on positions. However, I do respect your opinion and your right to it. I don't agree with where you're getting it from, but I respect it. I am confident that we both agree that it's a big mess, it hasn't gone well, and it's time for someone to decide what the conclusion will be and how we're going to get to that point

Let me share one piece of encouragement. I talk to my son a lot, he's at Ft. Bragg now. He tells me about the preparations that are being made, the training they are receiving, and the the attitude of the troops. They are proud of what they are doing. I don't want him to go, but I know that my son and our troops are the best ones for the job. They respect our nation's leaders, they respect GW. They are nervous about the change in Congress because it could put them in a more perilous position.

I think it is of highest importance that our troops hear our support, not our bickering. I didn't mean to jump down your throat...I get up every morning and go to bed every night knowing that my son, and the men and women he serves with, are putting their lives on the line for me and you...and for people in other parts of the world that can't defend themselves.

Thank you for your prayers for our troops. Do me a favor, add a prayer for our nation's leaders to have wisdom. They need it.

I agree & I will

I wish the troops didnt take it as dissent, althou it is dissent, but not against them, its against a failed policy. I for one and many others would still support Bush if he would lead better, just say this isnt working and give us a plan, give us something to support. Many of us want a change of course not Cut & Run

I know I can speak for many that dont really support the admins policy. PLEASE PLEASE tell your son we support him and all the troops and we are trying in our own ways to help them and deliver them home safe to you and their families. I wish we could just go over there with tons of troops and take it back, but it isnt going to happen I fear

Love to your son , you have a lot on your mind, I'm sure your very proud of your son and we /I am too

JL

JL

[A Fountain 14]

Phillip,You're spot on my brother!! God bless you and yours...Aaron

[PLD 14]

we have already destroyed their military, police & infrastructure etc, Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!! Because of poor planning!!!!!!!!!! So we are all just suppose to stay with how our President is running things, stay the course. NO F'in way, why should we.

Why should we? Because we are decent people. We started this, and we will

Phillip your not one for welfare......But we'll be giving one side or the other in Iraq welfare for decades to come. I for one have never said get out tomorrow. But the Stay the course line ran out its time some time ago for me and I think the last election said that somewhat also.

Ok, so you're not a cut& run guy, but rather a pull out slowly guy. What is your timetable for withdrawal? How do you propose to handle the imminent chaos that will result?

Its not just cut & run liberals that voted the republicans out. Many republicans dont want us just to stay the course

Re-read my posts very carefully. I NEVER said liberals, democrats, etc. The reps that wanna cut and run are just as cowardly as the dems.

Cut & Run is about a good of a statement as Stay the Course. The republican that say these cute one liners are about as useless as the statements themselves.

By that I assume you mean me. Ok, but let's clarify a few things. 1) I am NOT a republican. 2) Cut and Run is not a campaign slogan. Either we plan to finish what we started or we do not. Either we cut and run, or we stay the course.

We and many that you would call cut & runners would stay and would like to finish the job. I didnt want us to go into Iraq when we did and I knew and said that back before we did go into Iraq. The nuts are running the asylum over there now, we are not, we have most our troops in Baghdad, just trying to keep a lid on, but even with all those troops there is TONS of violence every day and its getting worse, thats a course that we should not stay on

I can't even address this propperly without getting into a long boring discourse about middle eastern affairs; But suffice it to say that the escalating chaos is being strategically engineered to encourage us to get out.

I would support stayin but give us reason to stay, give us a winable plan, give us leadership, give us truth, not just words

A reason to stay? Because we are not spineless pieces of s**t. We destroyed the place, we stay until they are back on their feet. Any other plan is the plan of men who's word is not worth the paper it is written on.

A winnable plan? We have one. Stay until the Iraqi police/military forces can maintain law and order. What you want is not a plan, it is a timetable. And you don't fight wars on a schedule.

Cut & Run LOL

Why don't you take a few minutes and tell us what you plan is? Not what is wrong with my plan. Not what we have screwed up so far. Not how much better it could have been.

What is your plan for fixing this situation and in what timeframe does that occur?

[PLD 14]

To what end? Why are we not occupying South Africa?

A fine question. IMHO, that is an issue we should address.

Helping an old lady against a gang of thugs is admirable. Dusting her off, making sure she is okay to stand on her feet and sending on her way is still a heroic act. Staying in that neighborhood and trying to lower the crime rate so she never has to worry about being attacked ever again is a lesson in futility. Thats not my job.

It is if the thugs are attacking her because you killed the police that protected her.

Why does the US have to be the world's police? We are resented for it more often than not. Any country can study our model of democracy and is free to copy it.

That is a legitimate debate. But it's not relevant to this situation. We are not talking about getting involved, or not getting involved. We are involved and you cannot unring the bell. Metaphorically speaking, our girlfriend is already pregnant and we're deciding to stay or walk away.

Why does my brother have to be killed? Why does my son have to take up arms? I don't live in an occupied country.

The debate over isolationism is a whole other thread.

We have dismantled a serious threat to US security. I though thats what this whole war was about. That to me is what any international policing done by our country should be about. Do you wanna f*** with us? We will take you apart and guess what? We may not be there to put you back together again.

Your memory of world history need polishing. Every time we invade and dismantle a country, the resulting chaos (and spoils) creates a breeding ground for tyranical dictators. It is precisely what happened in Germany twice and caused WWI and WWII. And it is precisely why we now spend billions rebulding countries we just finished bombing.

We did dismantle a moderate threat to US security. To leave now will allow it to reform and truly make the whole effort a wasted one.

Using your old lady analogy again, Phillip, suppose you were armed and shot one of the muggers, paralyzing him. Is it now your responsibility to look after his family indefinitely? Are you going to take the same stance and give a portion of your earnings to keep his family afloat? Are you going to send your son to his house to mow is grass.. paint his house?

Since I have seen no plan that involves offering financial aid to the insurgents, I don't see how your example is relevant. BUT, if I rolled in and shot all the police which then allowed the muggers to attack and paralyze the old lady, then yes. I have a responsibility to her.

[PLD 14]

a failed policy

this isnt working

Many of us want a change of course

dont really support the admins policy

Well then, what exactly would you suggest we do? Not "make a change", "get a new plan", "change direction" and other ambiguous BS. What exactly would you do?

[Jeff 232]

Well then, what exactly would you suggest we do? Not "make a change", "get a new plan", "change direction" and other ambiguous BS. What exactly would you do?

I'll respond to your other post later. Phil, I dont have all the answers, but it seems to me no one else does either.

I'm not a General, I'm not a President, I'm not a war strategist, Im not an influential Congressman. I dont have an answer for what to do, thats why we elect our leaders, but stay the course isnt a smart thing to do, why would we want a failed policy. Phil give me an idea on a good plan, an actual plan. If you cant please tell our leader to, thats all I'm asking.

Phil its not BS to want a better plan to want to protect our troopsits called being a concered american

[Jeff 232]

pldoolittle;87532Why should we? Because we are decent people. We started this, and we will

Yes we are decent people but we cant make a country be like us, just because our president wants them to. 1st we went there because of WMD , then they said it was to democratize Iraq. Put it this way, if Im washing something and it isnt coming clean, I dont stay with the same losing method, I adapt and try to conquer the problem. Stay the course wont get it clean. If by chance I cant get it clean, I'm honest with the customer and tell them

We started this, but it doesnt mean we have to stay the course. I wouldnt mind staying but give us a workable plan

[Jeff 232]

Ok, so you're not a cut& run guy, but rather a pull out slowly guy. What is your timetable for withdrawal? How do you propose to handle the imminent chaos that will result?

I may be a pull out slowly guy, but we dont have to talk about my personal life LOL

Timetable for withdraw, I dont have or need a timetable. I dont want us to leave, I want a winning strategy. I fear we stay forever and forever have Chaos

The Iraq's have to stand up for themselves and fight the chaos. Most the middle east has dictators/kings/strongmen or clerics that muscle their people to keep them under control. I dont think American democracy will ever take hold, put a thug in charge and I bet some of the violence will stop. Thats the failed policy I talk about, democratizing the middle east, it will never be

[Jeff 232]

Re-read my posts very carefully. I NEVER said liberals, democrats, etc. The reps that wanna cut and run are just as cowardly as the dems.

Do you know most of the american people dread us leaving if we do, but our president has not lead our country properly in this war. We are not cowards, there may be some, but far far from the majority.