Thoughts on Oxalic and Ipe

[plainpainter 217]

Russell among others sells a milder acid that contains citric acids - it's selling points being that it doesn't harshly bleach the wood like oxalic and it improves your spread rate - while I am inclined to agree, I had another thought swimming in my head of mine - the one that Ipe is a hard wood to get anything to stick too. Then in my head I did one of those 'one plus one is two' moments.

If oxalic 'opens' up the wood much more severely than a citric blend - wouldn't it make more sense to use that on a wood like Ipe - to clean out the 'pores' and get a better penetration of your stain, especially woodtux.

And I am not really interested in people talking about the 'integrity' of the wood - and how we are here to preserve it. I am talking about the top few mils. I mean come one - not one of us hesitates to sand down a few mils when confronted by a nasty restoration job. Can't we just all agree the top few mils is fair game when it comes to getting stain to adhere? I mean in an inch you got 1,000 mils to play with before you run out. Floor sanders wack out your hardwood floors after the 3rd sanding. What's the big deal about getting that top few mils cleaned out for better penetration of stain. A penetration that once in place will stop or put a great damper on wood decay and allow longevity of your wood.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel & Kevin,

These pics taken on 4/13/08, exactly one year after the citric - oxalic test start.

If you recall, the ipe' handrail was treated with citric on part, oxalic on another part. Ready Seal medium red stain was applied twice. 1st pic is the citric side, 2nd pic the oxalic.

I cannot distinguish much of a difference. The citric side might have a bit more pigment remaining. Both side ares starting to fail somewhat as can be seen in some greying areas of the wood. The med. red color has also severely faded.

Third pic is the floor. This is somewhat disappointing in that this was another contractor's "special hardwood sauce", 2 parts Ready Seal, dk. brown - dk. red, mixed with one part WoodTux WHG color. As can be seen, the floor is pretty much "washed out" of color and is graying. There is some pigment left under the roof overhang and where the table shaded the floor, but not much.

Disregard the balustrade spindles, gate, and posts. These are 20 yr. old PT SYP.

The handrail and floor get full sun nearly all day. Of course, one doesn't walk on the handrail, maybe this is the difference? Also the handrail is 2 x 6 as opposed to the deck floor which is 5/4 x 6 ipe'.

What is encouraging is the teak furniture. Like the ipe', the teak was left to weather for a full year before cleaning and applying Ready Seal light brown stain. The furniture was put away for the winter but has held onto its coloring quite well.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Thanks for the update Rick! :)

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Hey Beth,

Glad to oblige with the promised follow-up. Just been so busy. Taking the weekend off, I am beat to the bone.

What a stretch of weather for a NE April, huh? 16 straight days of warm, no rain days. Great start to the season.

College help starts Monday, not a moment too soon.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Good job Rick..nothing like real world testing!

On my end I would have to call the rails a wash. The slight difference of the citric being richer seems to be a grain/cut anomaly being that top part of the oxalic pic shows as same or similar.

Man the condition of the deck is disappointing but I guess expected in you world of caring for ipe.

Depending on this decks history, it perhaps confirms that waiting a year or attempts at quikening the extractive removal prior to an initial staining could be thought of as useless. May sort of leave a 'go ahead/green check mark' in the stain right away collumn for those wanting the aestetics from the get go. What ya say Rick?

How was the weather it went through and how much hoseing off might had it seen?

[RPetry 564]

Good job Rick..nothing like real world testing!

I agree. Am going to go a step further this year, with 3 different stains on sections of the handrail. Don't know when I'll get that started, this is a very busy spring.

On my end I would have to call the rails a wash. The slight difference of the citric being richer seems to be a grain/cut anomaly being that top part of the oxalic pic shows as same or similar.

Agree again. Could be the cut of the wood or a "trick" of the camera. A wash it is.

Man the condition of the deck is disappointing but I guess expected in you world of caring for ipe.

Depending on this decks history, it perhaps confirms that waiting a year or attempts at quikening the extractive removal prior to an initial staining could be thought of as useless. May sort of leave a 'go ahead/green check mark' in the stain right away collumn for those wanting the aestetics from the get go. What ya say Rick?

Disagree. Maybe I was a bit too harsh in using the word disappointed. Ipe' is what it is. The floor finish lasted better and longer than some other products I have used on ipe'. I think there is still some oil in the wood but it is hard to tell as ipe' is so dense, water stays on top even without a finish.

Attached is another picture of the floor, this one from an overhang at the back wall (pic top) going toward full sun/weather exposure. Plenty of pigment there, so the ipe' did not push out the RS-WT mix.

Remember, this ipe' was left to naturally weather for a full year. I am currently advising customers with new ipe' to either let it sit and call me in a year, or I am stripping the new wood with 8 oz./gal. of NaOH to chemically remove as much of the natural ipe' extractives as is reasonable. Amazing how much the rinse water looks like blood.

I firmly believe that this helps in finish longetivity for ipe'. 'Course one other wear factor is our two new pups playing on the wood! (2nd pic)

How was the weather it went through and how much hoseing off might had it seen?

A whole lot of sun, even in winter. Winter was mild with only about 5" of snow. I am as guilty as my customers ... the ipe' has not seen a cleaning or even so much as a broom sweep since the stain was applied.

[plainpainter 217]

Thanks Rick, for the update - this is alot of great information. So are you happy with your present system after this test? Or are you looking for alternatives?

[RPetry 564]

... So are you happy with your present system after this test? Or are you looking for alternatives?

Hey Daniel,

Little question that the oxalic - citric acid differences are nil, at least with RS. So we will be staying with the citric on ipe'. I am pleasantly surprised how well the straight RS med. red held up for a year. So I guess I'll generally stick with RS on ipe', unless the customer wants a different "look". Then probably go with WT.

The test has also helped confirm the idea of letting ipe' naturally weather for a while or artificially degrade the wood with stripper.

Always looking for alternatives for ipe'. When we get a breather from customer work, we'll get to cleaning and redoing mine, with straight RS. Am going to prep and test, head to head, RS, WT, and Armstrong-Clark stains on a section of the handrail.

Jake has been after me to test his stain, although it is designed for softwoods. Will also put all three stains on cedar and PT boards as a test at the same time.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Remember, this ipe' was left to naturally weather for a full year. I am currently advising customers with new ipe' to either let it sit and call me in a year, or I am stripping the new wood with 8 oz./gal. of NaOH to chemically remove as much of the natural ipe' extractives as is reasonable. Amazing how much the rinse water looks like blood.

I firmly believe that this helps in finish longetivity for ipe'.

So are you implying that without the initial year of sitting that ipe aged the same amount (+1year) with a stain applied from get go would not get the year that your test did?

I don't see logic saying people are to get less than a year out of the second years staining if they stained upon the initial install. Isn't it fair to say a 2 year old ipe is gonna hold stain just the same whether ya aesthetically presented it to customer with a stain first off or ya let it age a year?

[RPetry 564]

Kevin,

So are you implying that without the initial year of sitting that ipe aged the same amount (+1year) with a stain applied from get go would not get the year that your test did?

Yes. I think a year of weathering, at least here in the Northeast, is maybe the best surface prep for ipe'.

I don't see logic saying people are to get less than a year out of the second years staining if they stained upon the initial install. Isn't it fair to say a 2 year old ipe is gonna hold stain just the same whether ya aesthetically presented it to customer with a stain first off or ya let it age a year?

No. And I believe it may be logical. The theory is to get as much of the natural oils, resins, extractives, whatever, out of the ipe' before you apply a stain. Gives "room" or "bit" or "volume" for the stain to occupy.

A short story. Did an ipe' job last year. Builder applied Messmer's to the wood immediately on completion in Sept. of 2006. When I looked at the job in April of 2007 there was virtually nothing left on the floor and little stain left on the verticals.

Customer wanted WoodTux stain so in early June 2007 used a light, think 4 oz./gal of NaOH stripper to blow off the remaining Messmer's and applied the WT on the balustrade and vertical parts of the deck, as well as a small section of floor.

Customer was not pleased and either was I, due to the "non-drying" issue. Had to wait until late July 2007 to received the corrected stain. Stripped the "bad" WT, and restained.

Went back about two weeks ago to take a look. Verticals had held up OK, but there was little pigment left on the floor, with the exception of where the ipe' had been stripped twice. In this small section, the WT had faded but there was still decent pigment. There is a picture posted on TGS, the thread is in the wood section, probably about 2 weeks ago.

Compare this to my own ipe' deck. It had been stripped twice, and in 2006 allowed to naturally weather for a full year before applying straight RS and a 2 to 1 RS-WT mix. There is no doubt the RS lasted much longer than the WT on ipe'.

But is this the quality of each stain, or the condition and history of the two different ipe' decks? I do not know for sure, but in part would suspect the latter.

Head to head along with an Armstrong-Clark stain sample on the same ipe', with the same exposure, over the same length of time, may clarify the question.

Now, just have to find time to do it!

[plainpainter 217]

I agree with Rick - I cleaned my friends mothers little pressure-treated step, with a very simple bleach cleaning and wtw staing. It was like 4 years old and 'seasoned'. With the same batch of stain and only done 4 weeks apart was brand new Fir stair treads. A year later the Fir looks absolutely horrible - yet the 'junky' little pressure treated step looks like I did it yesterday.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Thanx Rick. I see what yer saying and figured the months that other deck held the stains work out to 7 mon. and then 9 mon.... but are you saying your deck is way older and underwent a couple cycles before ya aged it all free of stain for that year?

I would think one of those stains lasting better than another would be due to both the stain itself and the deck history/amount of seasons.

Just want to clarify the age differences and seasoning as heck for sure a 7-9 mon. versus a full year or more is a worthy thing to confirm. I mean in the long term over 30 years that is only 30 services versus 45 services....although we all know full well eventually after only a few or more year they both will have about same seasoning and end up getting a year off a stain. Especially considering the one that fails early will end up seeing more age time due to folks being more likely to let it go a few month being bare if not due to economics then due to deck work seasons not meshing with when it actually needs done. Can't do a deck if the snow is still falling..

Think I would go ahead and stain for aesthetics and count on things catching up eventually. This doesn't even allow for possability of aging from get go by stripping. Isn't that what Rod or others are doing?.....Hello, Anybody gettin a year or more off a 2 year old ipe to verfy the possability of not aging for a year??

[RPetry 564]

but are you saying your deck is way older and underwent a couple cycles before ya aged it all free of stain for that year?

Yes. My ipe' is going on 5 years old. Stripped and stained with Aussie oil the first two years. Stripped and naturally weathered the 3rd year. Last year did the test and stained with RS and RS-WT.

The strippings for the early Aussie oil apps also may have helped "condition" the ipe' to allow more oil.

I would think one of those stains lasting better than another would be due to both the stain itself and the deck history/amount of seasons.

It may be those two factors in combination. One surprise was that the ipe' took two separate brush apps of RS, without having to wipe up any excess. No doubt that aging of the ipe' permitted that much oil to be absorbed by the wood.

By testing the three stains on the same ipe' with the same exposure to UV and the elements, the stain longetivity itself will be isolated.

[Danny13 17]

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Danny13

[plainpainter 217]

I believe this is one of the very best threads ever on thegrimescene. I can't believe the next to last post is just over 4 years old, I remember this like it was going on yesterday! It's kind of sad because the quality of posting just doesn't seem to be around anymore. This board is what got me to get out of painting and go into pressure washing and deck restoration.

[RPetry 564]

I believe this is one of the very best threads ever on thegrimescene. I can't believe the next to last post is just over 4 years old, I remember this like it was going on yesterday! It's kind of sad because the quality of posting just doesn't seem to be around anymore. This board is what got me to get out of painting and go into pressure washing and deck restoration.

Hmmm,

Many of us were younger, and full of **** and vinegar. Many of us were building a business, and looking for help. Many of us got set in our ways, and found success in the long term in what we do. No surprise, but where is the new generation of woodies?