Thoughts on Oxalic and Ipe

[plainpainter 217]

Russell among others sells a milder acid that contains citric acids - it's selling points being that it doesn't harshly bleach the wood like oxalic and it improves your spread rate - while I am inclined to agree, I had another thought swimming in my head of mine - the one that Ipe is a hard wood to get anything to stick too. Then in my head I did one of those 'one plus one is two' moments.

If oxalic 'opens' up the wood much more severely than a citric blend - wouldn't it make more sense to use that on a wood like Ipe - to clean out the 'pores' and get a better penetration of your stain, especially woodtux.

And I am not really interested in people talking about the 'integrity' of the wood - and how we are here to preserve it. I am talking about the top few mils. I mean come one - not one of us hesitates to sand down a few mils when confronted by a nasty restoration job. Can't we just all agree the top few mils is fair game when it comes to getting stain to adhere? I mean in an inch you got 1,000 mils to play with before you run out. Floor sanders wack out your hardwood floors after the 3rd sanding. What's the big deal about getting that top few mils cleaned out for better penetration of stain. A penetration that once in place will stop or put a great damper on wood decay and allow longevity of your wood.

[plainpainter 217]

I can't wait to see the results - hopefully there will be enough meaningful data. Just curious - do you just mix the crystals into water without any surfactant? I am use to products like Flood's Deckswood, which is an oxalic/Deck Cleaner - and I guess Russell's product is along the same lines - in the way of extra cleansing agents/surfactants. I wonder who else just uses straight acid crystals vs. an acid/surfactant package? Who knows maybe citric w/out soap and left on the deck is the best prep of all - and certainly would be the least time consuming - no rinsing, and cheaper - no proprietary blend to mix up. Yeah this will be a cool three way test.

[plainpainter 217]

Hey I got another test after all this testing is done. If leaving an acid w/out rinsing is the way to go. How about a system where you wait enough time for neutralization to happen - and then slop on WTW - that would dive into the wood and thus force out any remnant acid/salt along with all the excess water. Now wouldn't that turn out to be a real efficient way of doing decks. Strip -> Rinse -> Brighten -> No Rinse, straight to application. God - you would be able to double your production.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

I can't wait till it gets warm enough to get started!

Yes, I have always used pure food grade citric acid crystal for a neutralizer / brightener, nothing else. No soaps, no sufactants, no fillers. Just citric acid. Dissolves and mixes in about two seconds in cold water. Apply it and you are done.

I am not a chemist. But I have been restoring decks for a while. Results matter to me and my customers. And over the years, the results have been fine.

I cannot help on the WTW experiment. I do not have any.

[plainpainter 217]

Once you get your testing in - I will test further on my own decks - so don't worry about it. I will pick a customer who isn't a big spender to try something new on. You see middle of the road customers are great sometimes - alot of times they think all contractors are the same. So I don't feel guilty experimenting on their stuff - they don't think it will last long anyways. It's the big spending/high profile customer that you can't experiment with.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

Finally got above 50F this afternoon for a few hours. Got the acids on the ipe'. Both mixed at 6 oz.(liquid volume) per gal. of water. Citric mixed in cold water, oxalic in warm water. Dwell time was 15 minutes for both the oxalic and citric. Both were rinsed twice, very well, with a garden hose. Pictures follow:

http://windsorwoodcare.com/images/bboard_photos/dscf0028.jpg

Containers of acid at the dividing line of installed gate. Oxalic on left, citric on right. Gate itself is citric. Note the color difference of the ipe'.

http://windsorwoodcare.com/images/bboard_photos/dscf0029.jpg

Closeup of oxalic treated ipe'.

http://windsorwoodcare.com/images/bboard_photos/dscf0030.jpg

Linear shot down the test handrail 2 x 6. Oxalic on the bottom, citric on the top of the photo. Note the fine photography with the camera strap in the picture. What is valuable, look at the difference in the ipe'. Jim Foley was right.

http://windsorwoodcare.com/images/bboard_photos/dscf0031.jpg

Close up of citric treated ipe'.

I do not like the ipe' coloring of the oxalic treatment. The wood looks false, almost a slight brownish tint that hides the grain. It does not look right. Again, Jim Foley was correct. It is very different from the citric treated wood.

When I can stain is an open question. But its ipe' and dries in a flash.

[plainpainter 217]

Wow - Rick, this is amazing data. I wish Beth and Rod would archive this thread or part of this thread. I think there is valuable information here. Almost seems like the oxalic had the reverse effect I thought it would - it seems that it drew out more tannins like a caustic would - any thoughts on this anyone? What I like about this - because it's Ipe, we should know in 6 months which treatment was a better success. I can't wait! Online forums are so cool - why would anyone want to belong to an organization when you have the grimescene!

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Good data..beside personal preference, which result do you think is closer to the very inside of the wood if you were to saw them boards in half?

[plainpainter 217]

I think the oxalic is spot on, if you ripped open a board.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

I think the oxalic is spot on, if you ripped open a board.

Was on my old fence board tests...I'll surely be watching this for stain color results and then the down the road results as well..

[RPetry 564]

Daniel & Kevin,

Update. Rained a ton here yesterday, by afternoon it stopped and the ipe' started drying out. Interesting note. The citric ipe' area was drying much faster and extensively than the oxalic ipe'. Big difference, like the citric ipe' handrail was ~ 60% dried in area while the oxalic was just beginning to show a few dry spots.

Weather is still iffy, but today may get over 50F. I've got a ton of real, paying job staining to do, but will try and get a first app. of Ready Seal stain into the ipe' this afternoon. If I can get to it, I'll post a few pictures.

[plainpainter 217]

Thanks Rick - I guess the data doesn't stop coming in - I wonder why the different drying rates?

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing. Just looking at the oxalic ipe' and touching it, seems to be almost more "porous" or degraded on the surface compared to the citric side. Almost like some of the lignin was removed. I'm sure thats not the case but is the best way I can describe it.

The camera was in the truck and I was too lazy to get it. But the different drying rates was real apparent.

[RPetry 564]

Marginal conditions. Finally got to 50F about 4:00PM this afternoon. Wind blowing at 10-20 knots. Cold, but I do have to try and make a living.

First app. of RS 50/50 mix dark red/dark brown put on the ipe' test toprail. Lightly applied quantity wise with lambswool, and a natural bristle brush on the PT and corners.

Picture taken maybe 35 min. after application. Still wet on the oxalic side, tacky on the citric. Citric was done first but took all of 10 minutes. Color difference noticeable with the citric being darker. Not any useful data, the stain is still wet.

Close up of the dividing line at the gate between oxalic and citric. Jeeze, forgot to stain the PT bottom board. Well, what do you expect from an amateur?

Anyway, the initial color difference is apparent between the two separate acids, but does not mean a thing at this point. Stain is still wet, temps are cold. Wind howling.

Be out of town tomorrow and weather looks bad until Tuesday. Second app when business and weather conditions warrant.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Some thoughts on how might the one be darker while wet....

Maybe it akin to same effect as when only washing with percarb/degreasers. Wood can seem darker while wet as if it actually made it darker but if you were to throw on either of the acid it immedietly lightens up. If it were let to dry without an acid wash it will be lighter upon drying and but may still have gray dead/rot stuff that should have been removed for best refinish. I think on the boards I've tried that I can say, for me personally, that percarb doesn't darken wood any more than other products that also lack the acid neutralizing abilities. Whenever I hear it I discount it cause it be my opinion that the situation was actually that of breaking through some sealer or oxidation/dirt film ...Rewetting such wood only done with the percarb/degreasers will show the grain areas darker as something of rot wasn't removed, or something of unsuitable lignen/natural oils wasn't removed that would effect stain absorbtion, or durability, etc. down the road. If you were to simply sand a board real deep you no longer have same effect to same degree.

This idea may mean nothing to end result of this project when all this is dry but it seems possable that either the ph is heftier on one than the other or one has more the natural lignens, dead wood, etc./whatever still on surface or just under.

Now I wonder if when this first coat dries how they will look if you were to get them wet. If the one get darker then I suspect we could call it potentially an earlier failure situation about to happen or a valid consideration when striving for even tone.

With all I have said..I still know that I personally don't know much at all about wood..scary hu..

[plainpainter 217]

Rick - next time you take a photo of the handrail - could you leave more of the oxalic out of the picture. The first picture you took - only the gate w/oxalic and the remainder w/citric between the gate and the shed were showing. Now the citric is far off in the distance and hard to tell a difference. A moot point now - but think of it when you take your next shot with 2 coats fully soaked in. Any thoughts as to which side may have soaked in more stain - or is it too hard to say?

[plainpainter 217]

Just thought of something - there was this old Varnish Maker's trick someone once showed me - say you want to stain some furniture, but the stain always soaks in and as a result you can never get the piece of furniture as dark as you would like. Well mix the stain in with the Varnish - that way the pigment 'stacks' up within the varnish coat - making it darker. So my very initial probatory evaluation would be that the stain on the citric side is not penetrating as well - because it appears that pigment is 'stacking' up on the surface - therefore giving a darker appearance. But at this point just a very premature guess. And even if it were true - it still does not imply longevity. What is great about all this - is that time will tell with absolute certainty what worked better than the other.

[plainpainter 217]

More evidence that the citric side may not be absorbing as much - the fact that the oxalic stayed wetter longer than the citric side. Much like two boards sitting side by side - one treated the other not. The treated board will dry up much faster because it doesn't accept as much rainwater as the untreated board. The oxalic side may be accepting more moisture because it is now more porous - and as a result take longer to dry out - but also accept more stain - and as well appear lighter once stain dries because more pigment soaked in vs. pigment settling and stacking on the surface.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

On the photos, will do. That is a bad pic. Photographer I am not.

Having worked with ipe', knew it would be next to impossible to get any valid stain quantity measurement on this test, especially with the small area. That is true. Subjectively, while applying, noticed no difference on the ipe' or old PT SYP wood on citric verses oxalic.

Going to be a while before the 2nd stain app. We are having a monsoon today with rain and possible snow showers through Tuesday night.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel, Kevin, anyone else following this thread,

Preliminary results. 1st stain app. but there is a very noticeable stain coloring difference between the oxalic and citric stained wood.

Oxalic on the right, including the small piece, and citric on the left. This is not board difference. The handrail has been stained twice before without this effect. This is acid neutralizing / brightening difference.

I really have to learn to take photos. Note the fine toes and camera strap at the lower right!

[RPetry 564]

Daniel & Kevin,

Finally, the rain stopped for a while to take a pic of dry wood. Still cold and nasty here in NJ but better weather is coming this weekend. I'll get a second light app on the wood when conditions warrant.

Color variation still apparent, though not as extreme as in the wet picture in the above post. To be expected, look at the raw ipe' on the deck floor and treads.

And no, the paraffinic oil, resins, pigments, whatever, did not "leech out" as speculated earlier on this thread. The stain was applied in mid 40's temperatures, and it rained about 6 inches with blowing winds starting maybe 18 hours later.

I'll lambswool on a second light app of the RS mix soon as the weather looks like it is improving.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

What grade of citric are you using?

ie. food grade, pharmaceutical or industrial.

Rod!~

[MMI Enterprises 289]

And no, the paraffinic oil, resins, pigments, whatever, did not "leech out" as speculated earlier on this thread. The stain was applied in mid 40's temperatures, and it rained about 6 inches with blowing winds starting maybe 18 hours later.

...What was that about?.. weather related or just something about ipe in general maybe causing leeching?

I think they both look good but would have liked to have seen the results of experiment on one board alone cause I'm thinking the darker grain on the citric one is likely to have just stayed same with oxalic as with the citric. Tone being different though of course as we can all see....

After a few weeks can you please take some more pics of the boards both dry and then wet? I'de like to see the difference of both their color tone then and also how much the RS changes in the way of allowing or dispersing standing water... They imply it changes..

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

The citric is food grade, at least that is how it is described at the chemistry store. Picture of the bag as follows:

Kevin,

Another poster on the thread thought that a parafinnic oil stain would "leech" or I guess, wash out at the first rain. I do not see this, but judge for yourself. The application and weather conditions could not have been more adverse when the RS was applied.

I would guess that it is a general observation and experience on the difficulty of ipe'. This is one tough wood.

Not sure of what you are trying to say in your 2nd paragraph.

I'll try to remember to take pics a few weeks out.

Where is Daniel (plainpainter)? This is his experiment.

[plainpainter 217]

I am here - I was in D.C. from Sunday through Wednesday with the g/friend. I like the results thus far - very interesting. I too am looking forward to the second coat and how they look further down the road. My inititial speculation is that with more coats the tone will even out. But now I am more interested in longevity - and that will take some time for the results to come in.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Same as we use Rick. Interesting.

Rod!~