My bid made customer faint

[Coastal Painter 14]

man ole man, This is getting ridculous.. People down here in South Texas do NOT want to pay any good money for deck cleaning and staining. In my coastal area I am not regarded as a lowballer, (I hope) because I am the only deck contractor in a radius of say 25-40 miles.. I bid a deck earlier today at .85 cents a s.f. Bid included material, sealers, cleaners, (didnt need stripped) 2300 s.f total of deck and spindles, railings, all pilings(10x10 at 8 feet high 35 in all,) all 500 lin feet of stringers below, all fascia, total of 28 stairs, and to top it off, Outside of railing is 12 feet off the ground.. LOTS OF LADDER work. I told my wife, if he cant pay price of $1955.00 for all that work materials included, Than I will save money staying home and sipping beer all day rather than drive 35 miles to get there in the first place,, DID I mention??? IT IS A BEACH HOME.. 100 yards from the Gulf, Winds are steady at 15-25 knots all day long. Hence All work would have to be done with a weenee roller ,mitt on railings (DONT FORGET ALL THE LADDER WORK) AND A BRUSH as No way I could spray in that kind of wind..

Any comments feel free. :lgtear:

Later Guys and Gals

Mark w/ Coastal painting and Pressure Washing

[bigchaz 157]

Sorry to hear you didnt get the bid

You measure a whole lot differently than I do so couldn't tell you what my price would be.

[Coastal Painter 14]

Well thanks for the reply The way I bid is:

sf of deck space

lin ft of railings x's 3.2 to get rough sf of railings

sf of pilings

sf of stringers below

steps either sf or 4.00 per step

all at .85 a sq ft.... I will go broke if I work any cheaper than that

Thanks

Mark

[Celeste 341]

Definitely feeling your pain Mark. We were underbid on a 900 sq ft deck by a good $1100 recently. The other guy was at .50 for a strip/stain, elevated with screens OUTSIDE the rail system. You just gotta keep on keeping on - hold the line. The ones that appreciate your craft will make it worthwhile :)

Celeste

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Know what is just as bad as customer fainting is when you faint from hearing what they expected to pay....

When I ask my own frugal lady to look at something and tell me how much she would pay she comes in anywheres from 32 cent to 80 cent depending on all sorts of irrational ideas like..."the item is worth more..I'de do it myself...well cause it goes up 8 ft. so you would need ladder"..

AllI can say to her is "ok, go buy a gal of oil and get back to me then"

[foxfire 14]

unless your customer is getting much lower bids, I wouldnt even worry. Let that one go. After having poor work done by someone else or even better trying to do it themself you will surely get a call the next time it needs to be serviced.

[Deck Guy 14]

I like it best when they start by themselves with an electric washer! They spend about 20 minutes scarring the wood, then go inside for an iced tea while they explain to the old lady that maybe they should call the fat guy (me) after all. I can't tell you how many I've done after they experimented a bit.

Don't let that one bother you. The only thing worse is if you lowballed it, and had to kick yourself in the a$$ the whole time you struggled with it.

BTW, I do mostly elevated decks, but don't use a ladder very often. I definitely don't use it while cleaning or stripping (use extension wand), and usually just to cut-in near the house on the outside when staining. There are better ways.

[PressurePros 249]

Send him my way. I will sell him everything he needs so he can bust hump and do it himself then call you halfway through and apologize because he didn't realize how much was involved in it.

Charlie, what other way is there to bid it? Everything that was mentioned has to be cleaned and stained.

FWIW: I was told by a certain stain manufacturer whom has lost touch with the real world that I was low balling and that I should raise my prices. At my current pricing I wouldn't have touched it for less than $4500.

[Proclean 14]

I can understand, but now, I say this is my quote ( via mail ). End of story. I could go on & on, but that is the bottom line.

Move on. Too many customers, not enough time.

[bigchaz 157]

Send him my way. I will sell him everything he needs so he can bust hump and do it himself then call you halfway through and apologize because he didn't realize how much was involved in it.

Charlie, what other way is there to bid it? Everything that was mentioned has to be cleaned and stained.

FWIW: I was told by a certain stain manufacturer whom has lost touch with the real world that I was low balling and that I should raise my prices. At my current pricing I wouldn't have touched it for less than $4500.

he listed 2300 sq feet measuring every part of the wood. I don't waste my time calculating square foot on an inch wide spindle or id be bidding all day. sq foot on the surface, linear on the rails. Otherwise I could spend all afternoon making a 10x10 deck come out to have 1800 sq feet of wood surface

[Greg R 82]

You win some - you lose some.

My sales guy Chris went out to bid a job yesterday and made it about a 1/4 way through the presentation and the guy said great when can you you do it :) . Chris then told him we were about 6 weeks out and the guy told him he would him an extra $50 and pay cash if we could get it done within the next two weeks.

First thing that Chris told me was "man I bet I could have pulled another $300 out of the job!"

This was a 500 sq ft deck (no finish just weathered) with 120 foot of rail for $1453.00 - then he pulled a house wash out of the guy for $342 as well!

You just never know.

[Deck Guy 14]

he listed 2300 sq feet measuring every part of the wood. I don't waste my time calculating square foot on an inch wide spindle or id be bidding all day. sq foot on the surface, linear on the rails. Otherwise I could spend all afternoon making a 10x10 deck come out to have 1800 sq feet of wood surface

I measure similar to Mark and spend the time selling the job, so it's not wasted time to me. I'm usually in and out in 20-30 minutes anyway.

Measuring like Mark helps me figure materials too. Like we've said before, we all have different methods of determining how many sq. ft. a deck has, so it's impossible to ever compare our price per square foot.

[Celeste 341]

We definitely calculate every square inch of wood to be touched - it's what we get paid for. Besides, I can't imagine anything worse than to not have the proper amount of material available to complete the job. If you don't measure accurately, the only way to insure that is keep tons of inventory.

Celeste

[bigchaz 157]

So for those of you who have these complex measuring plans

do yall take a 3.5 foot tall spindle 1.5"x1.5" and calculate that? That would be 1.75 total square feet (3.5 feet times .125 feet(1.5") times 4) Then you have to subtract the wood thats not exposed (if its secured to a fascia or stair stringer) Assuming thats maybe 6 inches on one side you have .0625 sq feet. (.5 feet (6 inches) times .125 feet(1.5 inches)) That leaves you with a total of 1.689 (rounded) sq foot on a spindle.

Then if you have 2x4 railing 8 feet long with three sides exposed do you get 4.33 sq feet? (3.5 inches times 8feet) plus (1.5 inches times 8 feet times 2)

[Celeste 341]

We have a formula for standard handrails, those with sweep-throughs, extra wood, less wood. For something like this though - would you not do the math?

[Deck Guy 14]

Although I charge more (obviously) for those type railings, I find that they don't use that much more stain, the rails just catch what would have gone through to my tarp! They are definitely a PITA though, since it's hard to get the undersides of those shorter spindles really well, and they can be seen from below on an elevated dek.

[PressurePros 249]

So for those of you who have these complex measuring plans

do yall take a 3.5 foot tall spindle 1.5"x1.5" and calculate that? That would be 1.75 total square feet (3.5 feet times .125 feet(1.5") times 4) Then you have to subtract the wood thats not exposed (if its secured to a fascia or stair stringer) Assuming thats maybe 6 inches on one side you have .0625 sq feet. (.5 feet (6 inches) times .125 feet(1.5 inches)) That leaves you with a total of 1.689 (rounded) sq foot on a spindle.

Then if you have 2x4 railing 8 feet long with three sides exposed do you get 4.33 sq feet? (3.5 inches times 8feet) plus (1.5 inches times 8 feet times 2)

Chaz,

Send me your email addy and I will forward you an estimating spread sheet.

[Freshlook 14]

Ken, if you don't mind, would you shoot me that spread sheet as well, I make errors on my calculations and seem to always under calculate, costing me $$$. Usually it's not a gross undercalculation, but usually by 20-50sq/ft. I would love to use a tried and prooven method

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Celeste,

Are those starbursts a pain to clean where they all meet together or does the chem pretty much prepare them enough for stain?

What size would some you folks call that one main rail section in Celeste's picture?

Could be seen any number of ways:

--8'L X 4'H X 2 sides + approx. 8' ( .5' thick X 16' worth of top and side railing) = 72 sq. ft. ?

-- or 8L X 3.5H spindles X 4 sides = approx. 73 sq. ft. ?

-- or 8L X 4' height X 2side X 1.5 PITA = (the real 6' METHOD) = 96' sq.ft. which makes up for missed surface area factors in other methods.. I'de rather deal with adjusting a factor internally for various items then changing dollars and cents per sq. ft pricing which gets remembered by word of mouth from one customer to the next.

In my opinion actual sq. ft price only gets adjusted depending on what level of service your to perform and what type surface your dealing with..

In other words, cleaning is one rate, stripping is one rate, sealing can or might be one rate and the surfaces might be wood, roofs, carpet, vinyl or concrete which can change the rate. I say in measuring use factors and then apply the total sq. footages to your services rate. In this manner the extra chemical/sealer/stain/labor becomes built in.

On the amount of stain use as Larry refers to...If your spraying efficiently like a good painter you would be spraying at an angle from surface as well as rotating your spray pattern and/or sizing it down some. A verticle fan spray pattern if done correct will coat 2 of the 4 sides of a spindle at once.. then you hop over the other side and do same..

http://www.spraytechsys.com/literature/wag_lit/wag_pdf/HVLP_training.pdf

When I look at such angles I don't see a whole lot more work or product use.

I only see that if you were to flatten the angles out in front of you that the actual surface area about doubles but that it would fill the viewable air space as if it a solid board.

Also, in closing....I don't believe people are paying for anything in the way of measuring. It is just considered internal for my business use to keep some consistancy between quoting customers an end price. When a job is very product use intensive then it is important for you to not loose your shirt but on regular maintentance of things I would get laughed off property if I start measuring things so specific and be considered a nickel and dimer. In my opinion it is ok to discuss approx. sqft. and pricing thereof with customers but that it is way better to discuss what your going to do for them in the way of service and quality.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

ps- I'll take that spread sheet too please.. :)

[bigchaz 157]

We have a formula for standard handrails, those with sweep-throughs, extra wood, less wood. For something like this though - would you not do the math?

Heck no I wouldn't do the math. Would you seriously measure the length of every single one of those spindles? Id be making close to a hundred calculations to find the true exposed sq footage.

For something like that I would just up my charge per linear foot on railings. That would be maybe 5 or 6 bucks a linear foot.

[bigchaz 157]

Also, in closing....I don't believe people are paying for anything in the way of measuring. It is just considered internal for my business use to keep some consistancy between quoting customers an end price. When a job is very product use intensive then it is important for you to not loose your shirt but on regular maintentance of things I would get laughed off property if I start measuring things so specific and be considered a nickel and dimer. In my opinion it is ok to discuss approx. sqft. and pricing thereof with customers but that it is way better to discuss what your going to do for them in the way of service and quality.

Exactly my point. As long as your are consistent thats the important thing. But as I showed in my very basic example, when you use such a specific measurement you're getting down to hundredths of a sq foot and tenths of a penny. Thats just ridiculous from a bidding standpoint, and probably looks equally as ridiculous from a customer deciphering your proposal

[PressurePros 249]

Okay guys, I have the three requests. Look for them over the weekend. I have to cut it off there though. Maybe any of these guys can be kind and forward it for those that want to take a peek.

[Greg R 82]

We don't get too complex when measuring out decks. We pull a linear measurement on the railing, a square ft measurement on the floor (add in the band boards to that) and account for any elevation. All railing are multiplied out at 3.5 to get the sq. ft to calculate material. Aside from that we price accordingly for the PITA factor. I myself, and Chris (my sales guy) do all the bids so we have an understanding of what to look for on the jobs. He's been runnning 7 to 10 bids a day recently so the easier/faster the method of measuring up the job the better.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

All railing are multiplied out at 3.5 to get the sq. ft to calculate material. Aside from that we price accordingly for the PITA factor.

Should we assume you mean per side to calc material and that you agree there not be much loss of material?.

[Celeste 341]

Heck no I wouldn't do the math. Would you seriously measure the length of every single one of those spindles? Id be making close to a hundred calculations to find the true exposed sq footage.

For something like that I would just up my charge per linear foot on railings. That would be maybe 5 or 6 bucks a linear foot.

I must've missed something in earlier posting - somehow I read that decks weren't being measured or calculated, more ballparked. We don't measure each spindle but we don't have a canned formula for all rail systems - that was what I was getting at :)

Guess that's what I get for "glossing" over posties! One must carefully read all words :lgbugeyes