Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)

[John T 744]

If you look at the news you will see that people put religion way up there. They Live by it and they will die for it. 9-11 for example.

Why do people have blind faith?? My Nephew who is very intelligent and somewhat religious attends Rutgers University. He went to an organize debate titled EVOLUTION v. CREATION. Evolution is more or less stating that we came from a cell and went from there. Creation is that God put us here(Adam and Eve) and we came from there.

The debate in a nut shell went like this....All the facts that the Evolution side put on the table the Creation side tried to tear it apart but the Creation side really couldn't put up any facts for themselves since there side is built on faith and hearsay(Bible which is past down thru men/women)

So I ask why do people put faith ahead of fact? Is it a character flaw that we as humans have?? Is it the guilt that is bread in us that if we don't believe in God we are terrible people and we will go staight to.......

In the shortest words possible since most of us can write a book about this ---Why do you think Faith does thru-out the Planet beat Fact most of the time when it comes to Religion???

[Mike Williamson 198]

I know more about Him that you could ever imagine.

The question was HOW do you know what you know?

[Don L 14]

Mike,

That was beautiful.Your point was what I think causes a lot of the rage on the part of unbelivers.Largly because of "organized religion",or churchianity,if I may..many believe that members of the body of Christ are sinless.When we preach the gospel of Christ,their flesh recoils,and is transformed into a perception that we believe that we are "gooder"than they are.They do not understand(quoting Our Lord Jesus Christ)..there is NONE good ,but God.I am speaking about a believer who is speaking in love,not contention.Again,great point.

[PLD 14]

Hey Phil....people aren't given eternal damnation for simple ignorance. They are given eternal damnation for breaking God's moral laws.

Not according to the bible that I, Paul, and Mike (I suspect) own. Failure to accept Christ (for any reason) means eternal damnation.

[PLD 14]

It seems as though what you're saying is that EVERY SINGLE person who truly believes the Word of God should quit their jobs, sell everything, and go to another nation to preach. I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that's what God meant.

What I am saying (in many more words) is that the price of inaction is so extraordinarily high (102k souls/day) that I cannot believe that God would be satisfied with anything less that 100% dedication to selfless service. Because of that, it is my opinion that anything less is to take God on your terms, on your time.

Going way back to my original point, we all choose parts of the bible we believe are literal and parts we believe are illustrative.

The bible said: "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature"

You said: "I just don't believe that's what God meant"

The bible said: "the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered"

I said: "I just don't believe that's what God meant"

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either the bible is inerrant and it did literally mean "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" or it is open to interpretation by man . And IMHO, "Go ye into all the world, unless it is not cost effective in which case just send a check, and preach the gospel to every creature that is located nearby and conveinent" is man deciding what they prefer to do and then interpreting the word to fit their comfort zone.

You HAVE given me quite a bit to think about as far as my level of sacrifice for His Kingdom. You're right, I don't need a big TV or a vacation, when there are things I could be doing that would further His work. For that, I thank you.

You're welcome. It was an exercise in introspection as well.

[HotShot 34]

Not according to the bible that I, Paul, and Mike (I suspect) own. Failure to accept Christ (for any reason) means eternal damnation.

I'm not sure which Bible you have then... Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou should be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the LAW OF THY GOD, I will also forget thy children.

The knowledge that he is referring to is the Moral Law of God....The ten commandments. We all break them every single day. Like Don quoted "there is NONE good but God, no not one"...God's standard is perfection. That's where the modern gospel message has really dropped the ball-the whole accepting Jesus thing. Please show me a verse that says all you have to do is accept Jesus in your heart! It's not there. The Bible says that we must Repent of our sins, turn from them and turn toward God...and Trust in Jesus as the perfect sacrifice for us. We don't accept Jesus, he accepts us. He draws us to Him. The Bible says that none seek after God because of pride Ps 10:4...

we are punished for breaking the law of God. Jesus (God in the Flesh) stepped out of eternity and took our punishment upon himself at the cross. He was our sacrifice. Therefore we must put him on..like the Bible says, like you would a parachute..trust in him that saved you from the wrath to come and eternal punishment for breaking his laws.

[Jeff 232]

Simply put, yes. If they do not recognize Jesus as the son of God that puts them at odds with any Christian beliefs.

But the jews are almost there. I love the jewish people. They are God's chosen people. But they are not going to heaven according to the Bible unless they recognize Christ as the messiah.

Scott

We'll that doesnt seem fair. all these billions of people over time that were raised by other beliiefs don't get to go heaven. I'm not being wise I just don't know the bible and wasn't really taught it at all.

What if another religion is right in the way they think and what if their God is the real one and the Christian way of thinking is wrong. Just asking because I dont know. I was never a good student. It all goes back to the topic of evolution vs. creation, I can see in my mind how we came from evolution and I just dont know if one book the bible proves the point for me, but heck I havent really read any books on either topic, pretty sad.

I mean no disrespect to any religion or to anyone on this BB on this subject, but it just doesnt seem right when one religion says all the others are wrong and basically all religions are saying that of the others

JL

[Jimmy M 14]

Christians believe {know} that christianity is the truth because Jesus resurrection was witnessed by many . Christianity is the only religion that can claim this.He is the only "savior" that is alive today at the right hand of the Father as the firstfruit of eternal life.

[Mike Williamson 198]

Not according to the bible that I, Paul, and Mike (I suspect) own. Failure to accept Christ (for any reason) means eternal damnation.

No, you misunderstand what he's saying. We are BORN sinners. We are BORN lost. It isn't our failure to accept Christ that damns us...we're damned already. We're lost without God, separated from Him already. It is our failure to follow the way that He has made that KEEPS us damned.

[PLD 14]

No, you misunderstand what he's saying. We are BORN sinners. We are BORN lost. It isn't our failure to accept Christ that damns us...we're damned already. We're lost without God, separated from Him already. It is our failure to follow the way that He has made that KEEPS us damned.

Yep. The point was that failure to accept, even because of ingorance, results in a one way trip "down under"

[Dan Stapleton 14]

I agree with Phillip here. Jesus Christ made the atonement for all sin. If God were to punish our sins again he would be saying that Jesus' sacrifice was'nt enough. People go to hell for rejecting Christ.

[Mike Williamson 198]

Going way back to my original point, we all choose parts of the bible we believe are literal and parts we believe are illustrative.

The bible said: "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature"

You said: "I just don't believe that's what God meant"

The bible said: "the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered"

I said: "I just don't believe that's what God meant"

You're right, God does want 100% total selfless dedication. He also understands our failings. Thank God for grace and mercy. Thank God that I can still "die daily". Thank God that He is still willing to work with me, push me, prompt me, lead me, and love me, despite my constant failings.

If I'm speaking to a group of people and I say "I want you to reach the entire world", does that mean that I want every person in that group to individually travel to every nation, and reacy every person? Of course not...that's silly. It would make no sense, and it would not be nearly effective as a group of people working together to reach the world. Some go to India, some to China, some to other places, and some support that work. As I said before, which you have a way of ignoring, If EVERYONE went, there'd be no one to support the work. Most missionaries don't get paid by the host country, and most missionary works aren't self-supporting. If we ALL went, the entire effort would fail. Again, you can call that "interpreting", I just call it common sense.

[Mike Williamson 198]

I agree with Phillip here. Jesus Christ made the atonement for all sin. If God were to punish our sins again he would be saying that Jesus' sacrifice was'nt enough. People go to hell for rejecting Christ.

If that were true, there would be NO need for repentance. I can quote you quite a bit of scripture that contradicts this point of view if you like. The price has been paid, but we are still dead in sin.

[Dan Stapleton 14]

True repentance comes when we love God for who He is and what He has done. Like you, Mike, I fail all of the time and struggle daily with the" old man ". or sin nature. Our sin has been paid in full. Past, present, future. Our faith in Jesus' finished work is what saves us, rejection of Jesus deems us lost. Read my post again and think about it.

Believe me, Mike, I understand conviction and repentance, I am in no way undermining their importance.

[Paul B. 523]

Does no one think that Jesus saved us from death but we will still be judged for our actions? You may go to heaven but will be as Billy Graham's house boy.

Does death mean literal soul death to you or a separation from God?

Would it not be horrific for our souls to be floating out there alone, away from God and all else for eternity? Would that not be torture for ever?

[Paul B. 523]

The fact that we're discussing the subject IS SPREADING THE WORDS OF GOD!

We are traveling the world (via the internet) without leaving the facilities (how convenient - but does it matter?).

When God says go out and spread the word, I don't believe he literally means "go travel the world", but rather praise "THE WORDS" of God as often as possible where ever you go and who ever you're with/around.

Let me also say that if we ALL went to a poor desolate nations to spread the word of God, would we and the nation not starve? If we all traveled, who would grow and raise food for us to eat? Who would make the clothes? Who would make the ships and planes we needed to travel in? Would we not all starve before we converted many? Yet each one of us has a purpose in life and even sometimes without knowledge of their action (one aethiest may convert an evolutionist (on the edge) to Christianity.

Again it's not our responsibiliy to convert people, but to spread "THE WORDS". Each person is responsible for their own conversion. No matter how hard I try to give you THE WORDS, if you keep on rejecting it, I will not be held responsible for your lack of conversion...

In regards to the issue of people that have not heard "THE WORDS" - my opinion is that children are most likely exempt (don't ask me to draw a line in the sand about what age childhood ends) and each person is given more than enough chances or opportunities to make a call. I also think that all circumstances will be considered when judgement is made.

As in regards to wealth: How many millions does Bill Gates contribute every year? Also, if you have not read the book "Business BUY The Bible" by Wade Cook (Lighthouse Publishing) I suggest you get it from the library (no cost) and read it. It is one explaination of how wealth, riches covenants and Christianity can go hand in hand. (In these terms "business" means one's rightful or proper concern or interest. "Buy" in this term is the writer's goal to have us (the reader) buy into what the Bible says and to literally "buy the Bible" if we don't already own one.

I was skeptical before reading it, but it has changed some of my thinking along the way. If anyone else has read the book, I would be interested in your comments on it.

[HotShot 34]

True repentance comes when we love God for who He is and what He has done.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments

That is how we show God our love Dan. We can't be like the husband that beats his wife, then turn around and tell her that he loves her. We cannot continue living in sin and then on the other hand say Praise God everytime we get a chance to.

[Dan Stapleton 14]

I agree. I don't think I contradicted that.

[Jon 533]

Do I even want to get involved in this topic?

Not really but since there are a few post about “hate” I will speak on that subject.

All of us are born innocence, all of us.

We learn HATE from our parents, brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles and others while we are young.

Here is proof of that for most, not all but most people, parents will say something like “don’t play with that Black kid as they lie, steal, smell bad etc.”

“Don’t play with those kids that eyes look funny as they always have bad breath of ginger or garlic or other nasty words”

Don’t play with those kids that speak Spanish as they are not suppose to be here, etc.

In our home, both when I was growing up and as we were raising our kids we taught them everyone is the same and that friends are all welcome unless they do something bad.

I grew up in a mixed middle class neighborhood, we had several different nationalities and religions and all got along with each other.

Now I lied when I said I won’t talk religion, just one question and I know many have heard it over and over but answer it the way you believe it to be.

If there was just one Adam and Eve explain how it comes to be not everyone is white, why are some Black, Asian, Mexican, Islanders, Eskimo’s, Indians etc.?

Evolution or Creation? I know what I believe in.

Answer this question too, is there truly a right or wrong answer to the subject of Evolution vs. Creation?

Or are both sides right?

Or wrong?

I also know you do not have to go to church to believe or Pray, a home, a car, standing on the sidewalk all qualify in my mind and any other place you chose.

Stepping off the stump now.

Jon

[HotShot 34]

All of us are born innocence, all of us.

Jon, we are all born sinners. We are not innocent, we are guilty before a Holy God. You do not have to teach a kid to lie, steal, be selfish....sin in inbred in our nature because of Adam and Eve.

If there was just one Adam and Eve explain how it comes to be not everyone is white, why are some Black, Asian, Mexican, Islanders, Eskimo’s, Indians etc.?

It's in our genetic makeup. Do you remember the x and y chromosomes in school? It's how 2 brown haired brown eyed parents can have a blond head, blue eyed baby. Which is also a great argument For creation. The genetic information is not in us or any other animal for that matter to make anything different. For instance, a bird does not have genetic information to make scales, or a fish doesn't have genetic information to make hair...etc..

The Bible says in Genesis that let them reproduce after their kind, and that's exactly what science can prove today. That's exactly what they observe---after their kind.

[Paul B. 523]

"If there was just one Adam and Eve explain how it comes to be not everyone is white, why are some Black, Asian, Mexican, Islanders, Eskimo’s, Indians etc.?"

The Bible starts and science finishes the explanation to this.

When God became angry at humans for mis-behaving, he created languages which caused people to diperse from the general area to many different locations. (You may or may not accept this literally, or historically but science continues the layman's explanation.) Which is: In the very early days, people in different regions of the world did not intermix with outsiders (due to lack of travel methods, separation through mountains, lakes, oceans, language differences, etc.). Through years of procreation, the dominant genes displayed themselves, thereby eliminating the least common features. Since blacks only mated with blacks, the black race continued. Asians only procreated with asians, etc., etc. (Similarly, Hitler tried to create his superior race of tall, blond haired, blue eyed people by eliminating all people that did not conform to these features - except himself. Through continued procreation of people with similar features, he expected to generate the superior race.

With advent of travel devices and through wars, tribes have combined with other tribes which in turn has created mix of people. You can see a lot of this mix in the US as blacks, asians, caucasians, indians, latinos and others intermix. Theoretically with enough time and enough intermixing you could potentially wipe out all separation of races and create one.

It's in our genetic makeup. Do you remember the x and y chromosomes in school? It's how 2 brown haired brown eyed parents can have a blond head, blue eyed baby. Which is also a great argument For creation. The genetic information is not in us or any other animal for that matter to make anything different. For instance, a bird does not have genetic information to make scales, or a fish doesn't have genetic information to make hair...etc..

I think you'll find somewhere arguments by science and evolutionists that fish-like features and other things are in our DNA but have been turned off through time. Also similar arguments that we all came from common ancestors.

[Paul B. 523]

Before I touch on my Bible theories I wanted to share some of my other thoughts.

Interestingly enough, humans, because of our so called intelligent minds, tend to fight natural selection and natural evolution. Are the strongest humans really surviving? Lets look at some things:

- While many women may prefer tall men, lot of men throughout the world prefer petite women. (For example, Japanese society leans more toward petite women vs. tall women.) Since not enough tall men are available for all the short women, are short people created at a faster rate then tall people? Short couples will have tall children as well as short; many tall couple have children that are short. So far, and in general, taller people tend to live shorter lives than shorter people - maybe that's squewed due to larger number of short vs. tall people. Lot of the tallest people have outgrown their organs - can we grow taller for ever?

- Generally in the US, (maybe worldwide) men prefer women with larger breasts. Natural selection is not working or not working fast enough in this case so we invented silicone, which again tends to counteract natural evolution. (Since many small breasted women have and will continue to obtain inplants, naturally large breasted women should decrease in numbers.) (No, I'm not obsessed with this subject or the subject matter - it's just a scientific observation.) The same applies to blond haired women: Most men prefer blondes (so says the advertisement), but since most blondes are from the bottle, are we creating more or less natural blondes?

- Homosexuality is increasing rather than decreasing. Male & female couples can have surragates, adopt children, acceptance is most natural for today's generation, bisexuality, experimentation, etc.. (No, I'm not trying to say that these children will become homosexuals!) How many times have I heard, I'm not a homosexual - it's only oral ***. (Thank you President Clinton - oral *** is NOT ***! I'm not blaming it all on Bill, but he sure didn't help - be it hetero-, bi- or homosexual.)

- Humans like to create ways of killing other humans and cause animal and vegetation extinction (we are making more and larger bombs, more weapons and have found many different ways of killing; we are killing off whales; we are detroying the rainforest). Is it the strongest, smartest, most wicked that will survive? or Will the meek inherit the earth?

- Inspite of dangers to our health and lives, we smoke, drink excessively, over eat and take more risks.

(Some of the longest living humans smoked and drank excessively.) The strong SEEM to survive, but are they passing on alcoholism and smoke related diseases that shorten the lives of their children, and children's children?

- It's not natural but there is a lot of humans having sexual contact with animals. (Fortunately, human and animals can't mix in the procreative way - is that by evolution or is that by intelligent design? Why can't we evolve in reverse - back toward monkeys?)

- Diseases, viruses such as HIV could most likely eradicate humanity before the human body developed a natural immunity to it. Due to human intelligence have we developed ways to slow or iradicate diseases (condoms, medicine, education). Ebola is another virus that (because of our intelligence such as airplanes, could spread) and with human intelligence has been kept in check (so far).

- Humans have a lot of preferences and fetishes which animals do not have; this also fights against natural selection process where the strongest survives. One example is: In spite of obeseity being rampant in the US, most large people have mates. (Large numbers of white as well as black men prefer overweight women and vice versa). I don't need to go into other fetishes, I think others can come up with many more.

- With brainwashing (advertising and other) we have created many women that can never be thin enough. Through this process, we've created many disorders. While these women are dying, the disorders are flourishing at an extreme speed.

- Liberal policies (politics and religion intermixed - boy am I in trouble) are creating more programs which help maintain some of our weakest. (I'm not neccessarily against any of these programs.)

Does the theory of strongest humans evolving still hold true?

[racechaser 64]

So what is the biggest hangup that prevents you from believing the biblical account of history?

Examples might be fossils of dinosaurs, age of the earth that type of things.

This not confrontational.I know it kind of reads that way. I would just like to compile a list.

Scott

[Jon 533]

So what is the biggest hangup that prevents you from believing the biblical account of history?

Ah I am now drawn into the other part of this very interesting post.

Which means I must now state my belief in order to answer the above quote.

I believe in Evolution. (please don't try and convert me over this ok)

Now I also believe there is life on other planets so are you that believe in Creation going to say the same God put those Beings there too?

I also believe that life on some of those planets are far advanced of us here and some are way behind us, say at the caveman level, maybe even further back then that.

More about what I believe and don't believe in, I believe in FACT, not THEORY, many things have been stated about every topic ever discussed, most have never been 100% proven, this subject included.

That does not mean those that believe are right or wrong, we each believe what we do and we being human and intelligent do not turn and say to Bill, John, Scott and others that post something like " since you do not believe the way I do your not my friend". We understand or should that there are many others who might not even agree with either Creation or Evolution on this board that are not posting for personal reasons.

I respect all here, pro or con on this issue.

To John T. You started what might become one of the longest post ever, not just here but on all boards if this keeps up and more get involved.

By the way fellows you're behind in your rent to me, I own Earth and rent it out to you but you need to send that rent check on time next month or ELSE!

[HotShot 34]

Now I also believe there is life on other planets so are you that believe in Creation going to say the same God put those Beings there too?

I also believe that life on some of those planets are far advanced of us here and some are way behind us, say at the caveman level, maybe even further back then that.

More about what I believe and don't believe in, I believe in FACT, not THEORY, many things have been stated about every topic ever discussed, most have never been 100% proven, this subject included.

uhm....isn't that a HUGE contridiction. There is absolutely ZERO evidence of life on other planets...and that's a fact. Also, you say that you believe in the "THEORY" of evolution. Also just because one believes one way or the other does not make it true. You are either right or wrong. If I believed that Mickey Mouse was God, I would in fact be wrong! There is no proof whatsoever in the claim that Mickey Mouse is God. There are tons of evidence supporting the fact that Jesus Christ, the God of the Bible, is God. Archealogical, scientific, historical evidences, and fulfilled prophecies support the claim. Now we can have discussion as we are here, interpreting those evidences and I think that's great, but somebody has to be right and somebody has to be wrong.

I find it a little weird that you can stretch the imagination and have "faith" that there is life on other planets, but think that the Bible, which has stood the test of time and been proven to be true in a lot of different aspects to be false, or not fact. How in the world do you come to the conclusion that some planets are far more advanced and some are at the caveman level? I don't get it.....

[Jon 533]

There is absolutely ZERO evidence of life on other planets...and that's a fact.

Not so, we and other countries have never even been to every planet there is and I doubt in our lifetime that will happen.

How do I come to believe that some planets are far advanced then ours, in my mind that is easy to answer, there has truthfully never been proof there is not life out there although you say it has been proven.

By whom, the Bible or human's?

I never said I do not believe in a bible in any of my post here, I did say I don't have to go to a church to believe or pay to pray. ( another tounge lashing to me on that remark is coming, I can just feel it now)

Correct me if I am wrong but there are those that believe the Old Testament is the right bible and there are those that believe the New Testament is the correct one, right or wrong?

If right then how do you explain why there are two correct Bibles?

I will admit I am not an expect on Bibles no do I claim to say one is right and one wrong nor that I believe one religion is better or worst.

I will say that I believe if there is a God then ther is only one, not one per religion. Now that said explain Budda and other religions that believe in other then a God? Or would I be correct to assume they believe their God is the same one as yours but in a different way?

(I knew I should have stayed out of this post,)