Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)

[John T 744]

If you look at the news you will see that people put religion way up there. They Live by it and they will die for it. 9-11 for example.

Why do people have blind faith?? My Nephew who is very intelligent and somewhat religious attends Rutgers University. He went to an organize debate titled EVOLUTION v. CREATION. Evolution is more or less stating that we came from a cell and went from there. Creation is that God put us here(Adam and Eve) and we came from there.

The debate in a nut shell went like this....All the facts that the Evolution side put on the table the Creation side tried to tear it apart but the Creation side really couldn't put up any facts for themselves since there side is built on faith and hearsay(Bible which is past down thru men/women)

So I ask why do people put faith ahead of fact? Is it a character flaw that we as humans have?? Is it the guilt that is bread in us that if we don't believe in God we are terrible people and we will go staight to.......

In the shortest words possible since most of us can write a book about this ---Why do you think Faith does thru-out the Planet beat Fact most of the time when it comes to Religion???

[PLD 14]

Wow, what a surprise.

Excellent post Dan. It adds a great deal to the discussion.

[PLD 14]

I think we must agree to disagree. For several reasons, one of which is that I cannot succesfully address a 60 line post covering theology, physics, chemistry, etc. w/o replying para for para. I can understand how it is annoying to read, but replying without subdivisions is a nightmare.

Hey Phillip,

Thanks for the response...could you do me a favor...I know that breaking down the quotes into groupings may help you respond...but it gets a little tedious on my side when I respond? Not sure that made sense.

Anyway...yes...you're kinda right again...but kinda wrong too. The amino acid synthesis you described assumes 2 points...1st, that was they type of amino acid that started it all...and 2nd, ammonia gas was present. If they were, you've got a starting point. Where did the ammonia gas come from in that time and place? Might have been there...but I'd be interested in how that happened.

The quantum theory response. Please give me an example...physics isn't my strong suit, chemistry and biology are my areas. What matter has occurred from nothing? I guess I'm more familiar with this explanation for the existence of matter when there are no other explanations.

It gets confusing, bouncing back and forth like this...doesn't it. The environment and it's conducive/non-conducive nature...I think. We know that different compounds, or molecular structures, are more stable in some environments than others. The popular assumption, at least that I'm familiar with, was that the environment during this time period was going through some dramatic changes. It would have to be going through these changes...heat extremes, pH changes, electrical discharge, radiation, etc. to support the philosophy. In other words, these changes are necessary to force the migration from simple compounds to increasingly complex amino acids. However, these dramatic changes also increase the likelihood that the amino acids would be exposed to unfavorable conditions, which would cause them to break down. The argument seems to be saying "we want it both ways...it did, but it didn't".

But here's the challenge, and the jump, that it seems you've made. You've pointed toward some examples of what we have today without acknowledging the context of those examples...colloids that metabolize w/out growth and self replicating molecules...and no example of non-living matter that does both. So, let's start with examples of non-living matter that does either and the context of that process. Then let's pin it down to the likelihood of that occurring in the primordial ooze.

To be honest, my biochemical days are far behind me...but I think I still have enough of the basics to follow up on your response. The challenge is to tie any examples to a context that could possibly relate to the genesis of life, and still fall within the simple rules that all chemicak processes must follow.

The conducive environment...your response feels a little like you're playing it both ways. If I understand correctly, the assumption is that there was a huge swing in the environment during this process...one day, condtions are good...shortly thereafter, conditions are bad. These amino acids we're discussing don't have adaptability yet, they're just chemical compounds. How do they survive these changes...yet these changes must occur to drive the process. That seems contradictory.

Your response to the lottery analogy has been used before...and it doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny. You're assumption is that as time goes by, the odds get better because this amino acid has developed. But it doesn't address the fact that the larger structure is less stable, which actually makes the odds worse. And now, we have multiple lotteries going on in parallel around the world. I believe the reality would have been that the lotteries going on around the world only drives the likelihood farther away...the variables increase dramatically. If I played in every lottery in the world, would my chances of winning increase? No, they would be the same chances of winning each lottery for that particular lottery. Every primordial puddle has it's own odds...every puddle has it's own set of circumstances, unique to itself. The mathematical challenge is a tough one to over come. If you're saying the time period involved changes that...you're correct. The time period means that every day brings a new set of circumstances...more/less moisture, higher/lower pH, higher/lower temp, more/less radiation, more/less static discharge...the list goes on. So the odds are constantly on the move...some days more favorable for a particular puddle, some days less. But it doesn't seem logical to assume that even on the most favorable day, the odds are very good.

Molecular replication...you're going to need to explain that one to me. Can you give me an example of what your referring to? I'm afraid that we're talking about different things here, that response got a big "HUH" from me.

It's not that I don't want to look at the gory details...but I'm careful to make sure that those details are relevant and contextually accurate.

Although it's been a while, I had the opportunity to study under some pretty well accredited teachers in college, both in biology and chemistry...even got to do some assistant work with them. I've had this discussion with all of them. The interesting thing was that the majority of them were very fluent in the discussion, taught it in class...but didn't buy it personally. Even had one PhD that had changed sides in the discussion.

The lesson that I picked up from that was that there is a lot of the shell game going on in the discussion. Too much of the validation came from examples that had little, or no, contextual accuracy. To make the case for colloidal metabolism as provenance for the generation of life is a huge stretch. There are too many instances of referring to some process that occurs somewhere, and say, "see...just like that." However, you've got to take that instance and tie back to the primordial puddle with some kind of realistic connection.

Let me ask your opinion on something...is this going anywhere? I'll be happy to sit here and bounce this stuff back and forth, but it's like my son just told me while discussing with me a few minutes ago..."it's mental gymnatistics. kinda fun for a while, but you're' just spinning your wheels."

I went through this discussion with my older son recently. Masters in Biology. He doesn't support the theory, coincidentally. But he made me re-think the arguments. So...do we keep playing ping pong? Or agree to disagree?

Kevin

[racechaser 64]

I

Don't be offended when someone wants to share their faith with you. They're simply doing what Jesus told them to do..."Go ye therefore, and teach all nations...." And in most cases, it is done with a spirit of love and concern, not self-righteousness. Just be glad someone cares enough to take the time, even if you feel you don't need what they're offering.

We are compelled to try and share the truth of God with everyone.You see it looks like we are pushing things on you, and you feel like we are bothering you. But this a real thing for us. It is eternal life in heaven or hell.Many people may have good hearts but were not taught the truth as in the Bible.The path is clear.But many do not want to turn and repent from the sin in their life.Hence we are interrupting their life and making them uncomfortable..

I would try to make the analogy of driving.

I see you driving down the highway in your convertible. Now I know that about a mile ahead the bridge is completely washed out. Everyday people die on that washed out bridge.

That is about the time you stop and talk to me. You tell me all about how good things are going and how you love driving with the top down.

I tell you to have fun and I hope you enjoy yourself. You drive off.

Now my wife asks why I didn't tell someone who I would claim as my friend about the washed out bridge.

And I tell her I really didn't want to bother him. I mean he was having a good day and I didn't want to bother him.

You hit the bridge and die in the river. Would you have found that information I had useful. More than likely so, it was after all a life and death situation.

Well this is life and death for us. We have been given knowledge we are commanded to share.

There will be no tears in heaven after all. WRONG!!!!

When you go before the judgement seat of Christ, we will be there watching each lost person being judged and cast into hell. We will be crying for not sharing the gospel with those people.

Scott

[PLD 14]

And that is the HUGE difference between you and I. I do not feel that acceptance of the bible is an all or nothing proposition. I am perfectly content with believing in the divinity of Christ, yet disbelieving that water literally covered the entire planet for 40 days.

And, I would bet that most Christians (yourself included) pick and choose as they feel appropriate. Disagree? Do you utilize doctors? If you had true faith you would skip the doctor and walk into the furnace without fear. Yet, you do not. Why not? Do you not believe the bible when it says you God will protect you?

Do you know for a fact that the sabbath falls on Sunday? Saturday? Tuesday? Are you sure that you observe it on the proper day? Have you ever spent more than 20 minutes thinking about it? Have you ever researched it yourself. It's not a suggestion, it is a COMMANDMENT. #4 in fact: Remember the sabbath and keep it holy. Not remember _A_ sabbath and keep it a high priority for you unless it falls on your vacation, when you're at the PWNA convention, superbowl sunday, or another more important day.

Do you go forth unto all the world, or just the part of it near home? No, not a mission trip once every 5 years. Christ didn't say go forth when it works into your pre-planned vision of your life. How can you possibly justify that people in remote parts of the world are dying and going to eternal hell because you had to work and make money so you could have a nice house and a big screen TV?

I could go on for pages. The bottom line is that ALL Christians pick and choose the bible as they see fit. If your church accepts your choices like missing a Sunday here and there for 'special' events, it's ok. You NEED to see a doctor, so that's ok. What? You think the flood was a parable? Heretic!

Christ had nothing material. He never took a wife, or owned property. He walked everywhere he went, associated with whores, touched the lepers, and washed the feet of the servants. When is the last time you sat at a bus stop and just offerred compassion to a *****? Invited a homeless man into your home? Sold all your possessions and used the proceeds to fund your own personal mission trip to outer bolmaria?

Is your bible unerring unless is asks you to do something way out there, then it's just a guide, parable, or an interpretation.

The bottom line is that ALL Christians (i.e. Christ like) pick and choose from the bible as they see fit. I just don't try and pretend that I don't.

Upon what do you base your belief in the divity of Jesus Christ, and upon what do you base your belief in Him as your Lord and Savior? How do you even know you need saving?

I just don't understand the concept that we can take parts of the bible (usually the parts that don't make us uncomfortable, or that don't contradict our worldview) and reject other parts of it. Either God gave us His word, and preserved it, or He didn't. If He didn't, then as far as I'm concerned, toss the entire thing in the trash, it isn't worth the paper it is written on. And without it, how do we know anything about Him, about our need of Him? How do we know anything about what He expects of us?

[PLD 14]

Now my wife asks why I didn't tell someone who I would claim as my friend about the washed out bridge.

You would. And re-dressing Mike's comment about the bible being take it or leave it;

If you truly believed in your heart what the bible said about being cast into the lake of fire to burn in agony for all eternity, you would crawl on your hands and knees over a mile of broken glass to save just one person from that. If you are not willing to do that to save one person from hell, then you don't believe the bible, you just pay lip service to believing the bible.

Tomorrow while you work, 50880 people will die around the world and only 33% of them will be Christian. That means that while you work 33,580 people will die without Christ and end up in hell. Now, I ask you; Do you pick and choose what to believe, or are you just so completely selfish that you would let 34k people burn so you could have a new TV?

[racechaser 64]

. I am perfectly content with believing in the divinity of Christ, yet disbelieving that water literally covered the entire planet for 40 days.

It rained for for 40 days. But Noah was in the ark for over a year.Which means the earth had water covering it for that long.

I guess that really blows your mind as unbelievable.LOL!!

Scott

[Mike Williamson 198]

And that is the HUGE difference between you and I. I do not feel that acceptance of the bible is an all or nothing proposition. I am perfectly content with believing in the divinity of Christ, yet disbelieving that water literally covered the entire planet for 40 days.

And, I would bet that most Christians (yourself included) pick and choose as they feel appropriate. Disagree? Do you utilize doctors? If you had true faith you would skip the doctor and walk into the furnace without fear. Yet, you do not. Why not? Do you not believe the bible when it says you God will protect you?

I get what you're saying, but I don't agree completely. I believe God works through doctors, as well as through miraculous healings. The bible tells us to take those who are sick to the elders of the church and to pray the prayer of faith. I do that. Paul also tells us to drink a bit of wine for our stomach's sake, and our often infirmities. I do that also.

There is also a huge difference between saying "I don't believe God will heal me...I don't accept that part of the bible" and saying "God, I hope you heal me, but I'm a bit shaky in my faith".

Do you know for a fact that the sabbath falls on Sunday? Saturday? Tuesday? Are you sure that you observe it on the proper day? Have you ever spent more than 20 minutes thinking about it? Have you ever researched it yourself. It's not a suggestion, it is a COMMANDMENT. #4 in fact: Remember the sabbath and keep it holy. Not remember _A_ sabbath and keep it a high priority for you unless it falls on your vacation, when you're at the PWNA convention, superbowl sunday, or another more important day.

Actually, every day is the sabbath. Under the OT law, the sabbath was on Saturday, and was set aside for going to the temple, making sacrifices, etc. Under the NT dispensation of grace, I am the temple...and I am to worship him daily. What day we attend a gathering of fellow beleivers is strictly tradition. God doesn't care what day we attend church services, since our Christian walk isn't supposed to be limited to a couple hours on Sunday, and maybe a mid-week service. We are to be communing with Him in the Holy of Holies in the temple daily...So yes, in answer to your question, I have spend a good bit more than 20 minutes thinking about it, and debating and discussing it with many people over the years.

And no, I have never missed a church service on a Superbowl Sunday.

Do you go forth unto all the world, or just the part of it near home? No, not a mission trip once every 5 years. Christ didn't say go forth when it works into your pre-planned vision of your life. How can you possibly justify that people in remote parts of the world are dying and going to eternal hell because you had to work and make money so you could have a nice house and a big screen TV?

When Jesus said "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" he wasn't expecting every believer to wander the entire earth reaching out to every nation. That'd be kinda silly. As far as missions, I give quite a bit to support those who ARE called to go. Me spending a few grand to fly somewhere to make myself feel better about doing something is much less productive than me giving a few grand to a missionary to already knows his mission field, who is already established, etc.

As far as living in luxury while missionaries and churches struggle, you're right. I don't live a life of luxury, but I could live a little more meagerly, and give more to the furthering of the Kingdom...and that is something God has been dealing with me about. One thing you should realize is that just because I believe His word to be true doesn't mean I follow it to perfection. The failing isn't in the Word, it is in me. I KNOW what I should do, but I don't do it as much as I should. As Paul said... "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. {19} For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. {20} Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." (Rom 7:18-20 KJV)

Christ had nothing material. He never took a wife, or owned property. He walked everywhere he went, associated with whores, touched the lepers, and washed the feet of the servants. When is the last time you sat at a bus stop and just offerred compassion to a *****? Invited a homeless man into your home? Sold all your possessions and used the proceeds to fund your own personal mission trip to outer bolmaria?

How do you know so much about Him? Oh, that bible thing. I guess those are the parts you figure weren't parables?

Is your bible unerring unless is asks you to do something way out there, then it's just a guide, parable, or an interpretation.

The bottom line is that ALL Christians (i.e. Christ like) pick and choose from the bible as they see fit. I just don't try and pretend that I don't.

Again, the failing is in me, not the Word. You're correct in everything you've pointed out here, as far as what Christians ought to be doing (and myself included, certainly). I'm certainly not going to say that God didn't REALLY mean what He said, just because I'm weak, immature in my faith, stubborn, or whatever. No, I'm NOT perfect, far from it...

There is nothing in the accounts of genesis to indicate that they're anything other than true accounts of how things really happened. When you start picking things out that you either don't like, or that disagree with your preconceptions of how they really happened, then things just fall apart.

Why do we need a savior? Because of sin. Why are we sinful? Adam disobeyed God, and that sin nature has been passed down to every descendant. Whoops, there IS no adam...we all evolved. So where'd my sin come from? Did it evolve too?

[HotShot 34]

Nice post Mike...

[racechaser 64]

If you truly believed in your heart what the bible said about being cast into the lake of fire to burn in agony for all eternity, you would crawl on your hands and knees over a mile of broken glass to save just one person from that. If you are not willing to do that to save one person from eternal hell, then you don't believe the bible, you just pay lip service to believing the bible.

I think I would do that. I just haven't run across that situation yet. I'm keeping my eyes peeled though.LOL

Scott

[Mike Williamson 198]

You would. And re-dressing Mike's comment about the bible being take it or leave it;

If you truly believed in your heart what the bible said about being cast into the lake of fire to burn in agony for all eternity, you would crawl on your hands and knees over a mile of broken glass to save just one person from that. If you are not willing to do that to save one person from hell, then you don't believe the bible, you just pay lip service to believing the bible.

Tomorrow while you work, 50880 people will die around the world and only 33% of them will be Christian. That means that while you work 33,580 people will die without Christ and end up in hell. Now, I ask you; Do you pick and choose what to believe, or are you just so completely selfish that you would let 34k people burn so you could have a new TV?

I can't save one person from hell. I can't even save myself.

Again, my failing doesn't mean I don't believe what it says, it simply means I'm a weak, selfish, stubborn, stupid person who struggles all too often with things I should have overcome years ago. It means that despite knowing what I OUGHT to do, I DON'T do it...not because I don't believe I should, but because that sinful, flesh man I struggle with every day doesn't WANT to do it. My flesh HATES God...it hates the things of God...it coudn't care LESS about 34k lost souls...it wants some chips and some TV and a nap. The flesh is ENMITY with God. And my flesh is far stronger than it should be after the years I've spent walking with Him...I'm not what I should be, and that is a reproach to His name.

[Jeff 232]

Thanks for the offer Kevin. Mike I'm not offended when someone wants to share, but just uncomfortable, especially now that I live in the south and theres a strip mall church on every corner.

I'll just go along how I'm going and enjoy my own beliefs as I see them. I think God wants me to be the best man & citizen I can be and thats what I'll do the rest of my life and always try to improve.

I have a question , just because I'm not a big reader of books , the bible is one I have not read

I just wonder if Jews, Muslims(not my favorite people now) Buddism etc and other non christian religions are they all wrong in their beliefs? Im not asking to be a jerk, I just wonder.

I just feel that you should be able to believe what you want to believe whether your a jew, catholic, Buddhist etc and not be told your wrong by someone who believes different then you. Who knows, I sure dont.

Be all you can be , be honest and be a good person and you'll be happy and yes God Bless all

[racechaser 64]

I just wonder if Jews, Muslims(not my favorite people now) Buddism etc and other non christian religions are they all wrong in their beliefs? Im not asking to be a jerk, I just wonder.

Simply put, yes. If they do not recognize Jesus as the son of God that puts them at odds with any Christian beliefs.

But the jews are almost there. I love the jewish people. They are God's chosen people. But they are not going to heaven according to the Bible unless they recognize Christ as the messiah.

Scott

[racechaser 64]

I just feel that you should be able to believe what you want to believe whether your a jew, catholic, Buddhist etc and not be told your wrong by someone who believes different then you.

Believing what you want is Ok except that it may be wrong. Suppose you went around thinking the best concrete cleaner in the world was peanut butter. You thought that was correct because you were taught that. We both know OX acid works better. So am I correct in letting you use peanut butter? Or should I speak up and let you know about Ox?

Now if i'm OK telling you about ways to improve your pressure washing biz, why not your life. I'm not talking about brow beating you, just sharing.

Scott

[Mike Williamson 198]

I have a question , just because I'm not a big reader of books , the bible is one I have not read

I just wonder if Jews, Muslims(not my favorite people now) Buddism etc and other non christian religions are they all wrong in their beliefs? Im not asking to be a jerk, I just wonder.

Yes, they are wrong. Jews aren't so much wrong as much as they missed the boat when the messiah came. They're still pressurewashing using pressure and no chems. :)

[PLD 14]

I think I would do that. I just haven't run across that situation yet. I'm keeping my eyes peeled though.

But you have run across that situation. As I mentioned, you will miss 34,000 of them today while you work... And you neither put down your tools, nor crawl broken glass to save them.

[PLD 14]

I can't save one person from hell. I can't even save myself.

Not directly, but you can share the word with that lone aboriginal on a tiny island who has never heard the word of God.

[Mike Williamson 198]

Not directly, but you can share the word with that lone aboriginal on a tiny island who has never heard the word of God.

Not directly I can't, not realistically. Doing so would mean abandoning my family to fend for themselves, and certainly wouldn't be cost effective.

What I CAN do is support those who ARE called to go to that one lone aboriginal on a tiny island who has never heard. Do I support them as much as I should, or could? Nope. And again, the failing is in ME, not in His word, or in my belief in His word. It is because I am too selfish to sacrifice as much as I know I should. With God's help, I will continue to fight against the carnal, God-hating nature within me and do better to follow Him as He would have me do.

[PLD 14]

There is also a huge difference between saying "I don't believe God will heal me...I don't accept that part of the bible" and saying "God, I hope you heal me, but I'm a bit shaky in my faith".

First, I agree with what you say about God and doctors. My point is this. You cannot both profess loudly that the word to be inerrant, and at the same time be shaky about your faith in it. Either your mind is without a single doubt about it's infallability, or your mind has doubts about it. There is no middle ground. The difference between you and I is that I verbalize my doubts while you only let them show through your actions.

When Jesus said "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" he wasn't expecting every believer to wander the entire earth reaching out to every nation. That'd be kinda silly. As far as missions, I give quite a bit to support those who ARE called to go. Me spending a few grand to fly somewhere to make myself feel better about doing something is much less productive than me giving a few grand to a missionary to already knows his mission field, who is already established, etc.

With the penalty being eternal damnation, and people being damned for simple ignorance, I cannot see how he meant anything less. The rest is just justification of your choices. THEY are better prepared, THEY were called. Christ said GO FORTH AND TEACH, not SEND A CHECK.

As far as living in luxury while missionaries and churches struggle, you're right. I don't live a life of luxury, but I could live a little more meagerly

I wasn't talking about the size of your house vs the missionaries hut. I was referring to you having a car and a TV while the remote places of the world face damnation from simple ignorance. I go back to my earlier statement;

If you believe without doubt as you and others claim to do, then to let tens of thousands of people each day go to hell while you stay here and accumulate possessions is probably the single most evil thing imaginable. Even at his worst, Adolph Hitler did not kill 34,000 people a day. And hundreds of thousands of Americans left their homes & families behind and gave their only life to stop it. The did it because the truly BELIEVED.

How do you know so much about Him? Oh, that bible thing. I guess those are the parts you figure weren't parables?

I know more about Him that you could ever imagine.

Again, the failing is in me, not the Word. You're correct in everything you've pointed out here, as far as what Christians ought to be doing (and myself included, certainly). I'm certainly not going to say that God didn't REALLY mean what He said, just because I'm weak, immature in my faith, stubborn, or whatever. No, I'm NOT perfect, far from it...

Americans sit back here in our opulence and air conditioning and pay lip service to faith. Sure, we go to church, share with our friends, drop a few tracts in a phone booth or two, and ocassionally we even make a feeble attempt share with non-believers on visitation night. We excuse our apathy with satans influence, and the original sin. But the truth is that we are just unwilling to really sacrifice of ourselves in any meaningful way. Why not?

A true believer in the word would do everything in their power to save people from hell. They would give their physcial life (and go to heaven) to save your eternal life from the fires of hell. But we don't do that, we don't do it every day, and we don't do it on a massive scale. Either we are the most evil, sadistic, selfish group of people to ever walk the face of this planet, or we really don't believe quite a strongly as we like to run around professing. Since most people I have met are inherently good people, the later is most likely the truth.

[kevinw 14]

Phillip,

We find ourselves on the opposites sides of another discussion! Which is good. You're comments sound like you're coming at this from a number of different angles...legalism and context.

Let's start with the basics...is believing in God enough? The answer is clearly no. Jesus' statement regarding believing make it very clear that we have to do something besides simply accepting the fact that there is a God. Romans 10:9 states that we must confess Jesus Christ as our Lord...that's a big difference from just acknowledging God exists.

The next point to consider is will we ever get it right? Even if we confess Jesus as our Lord, does that mean we've done everything and we can now coast through life? The answer is clearly no, again. Paul rights that he will never be perfected...he will never achieve perfection. The reason for this is that even if we accept Jesus as Lord, we still have a sinful nature and we will still sin. Our job is to be constantly aware of sin in our lives, confess those sins, and move on.

If it's something we can do without God, then it becomes "works" and the Bible clearly says we can't do it by our own works. If we could work our way into heaven, why did Christ need to hang on the cross?

Now to the legalism aspect. Keeping the Sabbath, seeking healthcare when we're sick, giving everything to save the lost...and on. Jesus made it very clear that his death replaced the law with grace. He did say that we should continue to observe the law, but the emphasis was placed on loving our neighbor as ourselves.

A couple of examples...Matt. 23:23. Jesus was challenged about the tithe. The pharisees set him up. They asked him if the tithe was still important. Jesus answered by calling them hypocrites, that they tithed meticulously all the way down to giving a tithe of seeds of spice and cumin...but they neglected the more important matters of judgement, mercy and faith.

In another instance, Jesus and the disciples were travelling and the disciples walked through a field and grabbed some grains of wheat from the field and ate it...on the Sabbath. The law said that was harvesting, working on the Sabbath. The pharisees attacked again. Jesus reminded them of when David and his men went into the temple and ate the showbread...reserved only for the priests.

The point is that the law, and legalism, do not apply in the context they did in Old Testament times. The New Testament teaches that we no longer live under the law, we now live under grace.

To your point, is it important that we observe the Sabbath on the official day? No, that is legalism. It is important that we observe "a" Sabbath, but the day of the week we choose to observe is a personal choice. We are instructed to not forsake the gathering for worship. In other words, we don't have the license to decide if we'll attend worship, the when (day of the week) is our decision.

Rolling forward. All Christians pick and choose. I disagree, however I'm sure there are a lot that do...you seem to be one of them. Realizing that our job is to be Christlike, and that we will never be able to be Christlike (or perfected), we continue to try to be more like Him every day. We fail daily, we ask for forgiveness, and try again.

The Bible addresses all of this, so it's important that we know what we believe. Otherwise, we'll come with opinions such as the ones you stated. They're based on parts and pieces of the Bible, either the ones we know about because we haven't studied enough to understand what we believe...or we choose the parts we like, and disregard the parts we don't like.

The Bible clearly tells us that we are accountable for our actions. If I have all of my stuff, and consider it to be mine... "give" God a little bit...then I didn't read the Bible very well. It tells us that it is all God's, and we are responsible for managing it according to His word...and He's going to hold us accountable for how well we manage it. That includes time, material possessions, and skills.

Realistically, can I find every one of those guys that are dying every day...no. But I can make sure my neighbor knows...I can sponsor the efforts of those people that are trying to get to the thousands that die every day. I can make what I have available.

Our challenge is to look at ourselves in the mirror every day and ask "How does God see me?" Which leads to my question. If you choose to pick and choose (and admit it because you're honest enough to do that), are you confident that your going to give a good accounting? Not from your perspective, but from God's perspective as we know it from the Bible?

There are a lot of folks that do the same thing as you've stated. They like the loving, kind, and forgiving God...but that accountability thing is uncomfortable, so they disregard it. How are they going to explain that to God, who sent His Son to die for their sins. What possible justification can they offer?

I use my relationship with my father as a guideline for how I see God. I've got a great father, and a great relationship with him. I do things for him to show him that I love him, and I will do anything to avoid disappointing him. God loves me more than my father...and has done more for me than my father. What can I do to show him I love him? By obeying him and doing my best for him.

Phillip, I think this is a pretty important personal issue...it is for me, anyway. I encourage you to become as fluent the the Bible as you are in the evolution discussion. I think fluency in God's word will serve you better.

Kevin

[PLD 14]

Not directly I can't, not realistically. Doing so would mean abandoning my family to fend for themselves, and certainly wouldn't be cost effective.

Yes, you can. Lots of people make this very decision. You choose not to.

No, it would mean taking them with you and adjusting to a new lifestyle in service.

COST EFFECTIVE? What is the cost of eternal damnation? Who paid that tremendous price because your ROI wasn't good enough if you took time of to do missionsry work?

Justify all you wish if it helps you sleep at night. But the choices are still yours.

[PLD 14]

Realizing that our job is to be Christlike, and that we will never be able to be Christlike (or perfected), we continue to try to be more like Him every day. We fail daily, we ask for forgiveness, and try again.

Realistically, can I find every one of those guys that are dying every day...no. But I can make sure my neighbor knows...I can sponsor the efforts of those people that are trying to get to the thousands that die every day. I can make what I have available.

No, you can't save 'em all. But you can reach a few. Many in fact. Many more than you are reaching today. You can sell your boat and buy a warehouse full of tracts. You can skip Monday night football and go preach in the square. You can explain to you kids that a missionary trip to rural Mississippi is more important that the family vacation to the beach. You can explain to the wife that she can't have that new dress while people still die unknowing.

Every day there are hundreds, if not thousands, or opportunities to make choices that increase the spread of the word of Christ. And we pass on them all because it would affect OUR comfort, OUR lifestyle, OUR pleasure. There is NOTHING Christlike about working to buy a new TV while people die without knowing God. While children die without every having seen a bible.

You can make all the justifications you want as to why you were unable to do these things, but the bottom line is that you were able to do them and you made a decision not to. Which means that either you are not as strong of a believer as you profess, or you value the tiny little material things far more than the mortal soul of your fellow man.

There really only are two choices here; Either you are selfish at an unspeakbly evil level, or your faith only extends far enough to CYA. And if the latter is true, that's not faith, that's just fear.

Take Bin Laden, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Heavens Gate: Their followers had true faith. Sadly, it was misplaced, but it was still true. They believed in their heart that every word was the inerrant word of their god and they behaved in that fashion. They would have professed their god as king over all and smiled as they walked into the furnace. And that is faith in the inerrant word...

[HotShot 34]

With the penalty being eternal damnation, and people being damned for simple ignorance, I cannot see how he meant anything less. The rest is just justification of your choices. THEY are better prepared, THEY were called. Christ said GO FORTH AND TEACH, not SEND A CHECK.

Hey Phil....people aren't given eternal damnation for simple ignorance. They are given eternal damnation for breaking God's moral laws. Just like the law of gravity- If I go up to a 10 story building and jump off, whether I believe in gravity or not, I'm going to face the penalty of splattering on the ground. God gave us a conscience to tell us right from wrong. The word conscience means "with knowledge" we know that it is wrong to steal, lie, commit adultery, kill etc.....

Our conscience can become seared and you get your Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer's of the world, who can't tell the difference anymore....but they are still breaking the Holy Law of God.

I think this is a wonderful discussion, you guys are doing great on both sides :)

[Dan Stapleton 14]

Excellent post Dan. It adds a great deal to the discussion.

Yeah, so weak, I know. I regret it. I spent a lot of time arguing my beliefs with an unbelieving friend that is an intellectual. I have since learned to stay out of these arguments and let the only one (Jesus) capable of getting through do his job.

[kevinw 14]

Wow, Phil! You kinda jumped to some conclusions, didn't you? How do you know I haven't already done all of that? How do you know what I've done at all?

I think you've unintentionally made my point. My faith, my relationship with God, is between Him and me. I make a pretty big effort to see myself as he sees me...and you're right...I can always do more. I try to every day...somedays I'm successful...somedays I'm not so successful. I also try to make sure that my relationship with God is where it's supposed to be every day.

But here's the kicker...it's my relationship with God...not yours. If I look at what you could be doing, and aren't doing...I could say, "Phil, you should be selling your home and filling your warehouses with tracts!" But, then I've got the beam in my eye...right?

My post clearly said we work toward doing a better job every day. But, is it giving out tracts...knocking on doors...selling everything and going to that desert island? Again, the Bible gives the guideline. It says we are each gifted with talents in different areas. If my gift is a great singing voice (which it isn't), and I decided to sell everything and go to the desert island...what about all of those people God intended for me to touch with my singing voice?

I have a good friend, a brigadier general in the Army (true story). He feels he needs to do something for God...and is considering resigning his commission and going into some ministry. My advice to him was to be sure, because God put him where he is to have influence in that area...he has considerable influence, and an impressive ministry. If he resigns, he loses that influence. You could say he should be travelling the country preaching the gospel, standing in the square preaching the gospel. How do you know he's not doing exactly what God planned for him to do?

When you start looking at service, which is what you're describing, the Bible gives specific instructions...1)make sure it is directed by God, not man, 2) make sure it is scriptural, 3)confirm your decision with other godly men/women, and 4)go where God sends you.

God has not called me to fill my warehouse with tracts...however, he has called me in other areas. I'd be interested in knowing how you are serving?

We've been here before, believing the part you like and ignoring the part you don't like. I think you'll agree that you've selected some pretty extreme examples.

Please keep the context thing in mind. Bin Laden...not a Christian, and according to most Muslims, not following their beliefs. David Koresh, Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate...all great examples of cults. They took a little bit of scripture, molded it into what they wanted it to say.

On the other hand, that is what you are doing isn't it? I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I think you have to admit that you've done the same thing...just less radically.

You forgot to mention Benny Hinn, living a very extravagant lifestyle. You also forgot to mention the thousands and thousands of men and women that have given God everything, and he has given more back to them...just like he promised he would!

I'm no fan of the Benny Hinn's of the world, but I don't think you can castigate everyone who has been blessed by God because you don't like Benny Hinns

Bob Buford, Dallas businessman who built a cable communication empire. Resigned from the board and started a ministry helping people find what they're supposed to be doing for God. Very wealthy guy. He used his wealth to help prepare people to go into the field. Why didn't he go into the field? He sought God's wisdom, and God told him that he had been prepared for a differenty ministry.

Phil, I gotta tell you that you're swinging away but you're missing it.

kevin

[Mike Williamson 198]

Yes, you can. Lots of people make this very decision. You choose not to.

No, it would mean taking them with you and adjusting to a new lifestyle in service.

COST EFFECTIVE? What is the cost of eternal damnation? Who paid that tremendous price because your ROI wasn't good enough if you took time of to do missionsry work?

Justify all you wish if it helps you sleep at night. But the choices are still yours.

It seems as though what you're saying is that EVERY SINGLE person who truly believes the Word of God should quit their jobs, sell everything, and go to another nation to preach. I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that's what God meant. Even the apostles didn't all travel around preaching. You had some pastors, some missionaries, etc. If I leave here to go reach out to the lost in another country, who will reach those here who are lost? If every believer did that, who is left here? Are Christians from Africa supposed to come here to reach out?

As far as not being cost effective, I'm required to be a good steward of what God gives me. Say I have $5k I can spend on outreach this year. Who is going to reach more people? A missionary who is already there, set up, who knows the language, the culture, the customs, or me? If I give that missionary my $5k, he is better equipped to reach many more people than I ever could in a week, or a month. It would take me that long just to get to the point where I could communicate even the most basic things in most countries. You seem to think that my way of thinking is just justifying my own unwillingness to go...that's so far from the truth you can't even imagine. I'd go in a heartbeat, if He sent me. Maybe He will one day. For now, my place in His work is here, helping to reach those here, and to support the efforts to reach those elsewhere.

If every believer sold everything and went to reach the lost in other countries, who will support that work? Most missionary works don't support themselves, especially in dirt poor third world nations. Who is going to buy food, vehicles, literature, equipment, or whatever else the missionaries need, if we're ALL missionaries??

The bottom line is that scripture is clear, not all are called to one ministry...Some ARE called to be missionaries. Some are called to be teachers...preachers...pastors...teachers...prophets...evangelists... If you think that's just me justifying my own unwillingness or lack of caring for others, so be it. You simply don't understand where I'm coming from.

As far as my lack of complete and total obedience to His word meaning I don't truly beleive it, that's just hogwash. It simply means that I am not willing to be obedient to what I KNOW I should do. You say people you meet are inherently good...That's simply not true. We are ALL inherently evil. We are ALL born with a carnal sin nature that HATES the things of God. We are in a constant battle between the Spirit and the flesh...and all to often we give in to the will of the flesh. THAT'S why many of us buy a TV or a dress or a vacation when we could use that money or time to do His work.

You HAVE given me quite a bit to think about as far as my level of sacrifice for His Kingdom. You're right, I don't need a big TV or a vacation, when there are things I could be doing that would further His work. For that, I thank you.