New Pressure Treated Wood

[tigerzak 14]

I have a new deck to stain. The deck was installed about 3 weeks ago. I have 2 questions.

1) How long should I wait before I seal the deck?

2) Do I need to strip the deck first to remove any oils or wax that may be on the wood from the factory?

Thanks in advance for the help.

[Roger Oakley 14]

I also have no problems using Cabot's ATO, semi-trans and soilid stains after a BDA wash. Never had a problem with Cuprinol stain's either.

Knowledge is all I guess.

[bigchaz 157]

Like most stuff it seems to be all about dilution. And theres little else that is so effective against mold. I try to stay away from the bleach but when you have a completely green deck, it def has its place.

I think the reason many are so quick to say no bleach is because it is very risky in homeowners hands. Im sure many of you have seen decks where homeowner decides to poor straight bleach on the deck thinking it will clean it

[MMI Enterprises 289]

By the time they water it down a tad Charlie it likely at a low house wash level of 1.5% or so ..so should work good fer mild mildew don't ya think..That is what some stain manu tell customer to do in between services is to clean with bleach.

I agree most valid debate issues between bleach and other offerings is more about dilutions...so we're on same page there...

A deck needing strip is job fer hydroxide and bound to be mixed stronger so I fail to see the point of one doing more damage as very debatable people....hydroxide is used in food production on things like pretzels even..

I also absolutely question the idea of a bleached deck not needing acid washed after a rinse but before stain. Just look at where it is on the ph scale people. The stain wants the right condition too not just the wood....why risk something not meshing or job to job consistancy when ya can give things their best opportune by a little extra rinsing.. or better yet a little acid after as well.

I aint for or against bleach....but ya better believe that bleach will degrade and dry out a non catalyzed finish just like most anything else can. Best bet is to have these HOer's clean with neutral car wash or neutral floor cleaner if ya don't want to be back as soon... :)

[Tmrrptr 164]

Yah, Kevin's got it !

Eat a pretzel, drink a beer to neutralize it.

Makes perfect sense to me.

r

[seymore 90]

I also absolutely question the idea of a bleached deck not needing acid washed after a rinse but before stain. Just look at where it is on the ph scale people. The stain wants the right condition too not just the wood....why risk something not meshing or job to job consistancy when ya can give things their best opportune by a little extra rinsing.. or better yet a little acid after as well.

Well you you can question it all you want but it's been our process for the last 15 years and still going strong.We have more repeat biz than new biz so our process must be working huh ? Why are my decks lasting 2 years or sometimes longer? I have cedar houses holding up over 7-8 years or my arbors,fences 4-5 years!

Why do the stain company's have right on the label to clean new and old wood with bleach/soap and no mention of acid?

[RPetry 564]

Kevin said:

A deck needing strip is job fer hydroxide and bound to be mixed stronger so I fail to see the point of one doing more damage as very debatable people....

Hah! Wanna bet? You were not around for the Great Bleach Debate. Multiple pages on just that subject.

hydroxide is used in food production on things like pretzels even..

Yeah, and there is arsenic in chocolate.

I also absolutely question the idea of a bleached deck not needing acid washed after a rinse but before stain.

If memory serves me correctly, you cannot neutralize sodium hypochlorite with an acid. There is a chemical, forget what it is, but its pretty obscure.

[James 625]

I have deck's over 10years old that have never been neutered and they keep on multiplying!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

If you are leaning towards bleach, why not use the percarbonate instead? It is safer for the wood and works equally well.

Beth

[James 625]

Precarbs are a waste of time, money and effort on especially new wood . They darken the wood and raise the grain. Are they safer? yes! Are they terible at getting rid of mold? yes! Is bleach easy to learn ? Yes!

Do it the BDA way! Keep bleach in your truck!

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Perhaps some missed when I said I am not for or against Bleach?

Kevin said:

Quote:

A deck needing strip is job fer hydroxide and bound to be mixed stronger so I fail to see the point of one doing more damage as very debatable people....

Hah! Wanna bet? You were not around for the Great Bleach Debate. Multiple pages on just that subject.

Quote:

hydroxide is used in food production on things like pretzels even..

Yeah, and there is arsenic in chocolate. What is point Rick?. You in support of what I said or against?..If it debatable then explain why, if ya have some point about comparing arsenic to hydroxide for to prove some point (different than mine) please do as I am open to it. Surely you can see that your two responses above belong together and it almost seems your implying that dilution don't matter whereas much of the case for using bleach actually rests on what I said. You should be affirming my words rather than..what is it yer saying?.. help a brotha out if ya can :)

Quote:

I also absolutely question the idea of a bleached deck not needing acid washed after a rinse but before stain.

If memory serves me correctly, you cannot neutralize sodium hypochlorite with an acid. There is a chemical, forget what it is, but its pretty obscure.Ok..I should explain that I think you and Shane and maybe James are misreading this to mean something other than what it says.REREAD. It does not mention any such thing as neutralizing bleach. I was addressing the need of wood and stain deserving extra efforts. Was trying to get into point that WOOD and STAIN can like the acid regardless of bleach or hydroxide use.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Well you you can question it all you want but it's been our process for the last 15 years and still going strong.We have more repeat biz than new biz so our process must be working huh ? Why are my decks lasting 2 years or sometimes longer? I have cedar houses holding up over 7-8 years or my arbors,fences 4-5 years!

Why do the stain company's have right on the label to clean new and old wood with bleach/soap and no mention of acid?

Hi Shane,

I don't relate my having a question to your stating your abilities and experience. Your work speaks for itself. With that said I would point out that the durability you site is not special beyond that of others not using bleach. Most the quality woodies here know that it is the whole package start to finish and not bleach or hydroxide making the finished products. Really there is no need to expect an answer from me on your questions of why they last so long. It is an industry and consumer expectation that they last about that which you say.

Now to try and be even more clear.. (as it seems you guys have a one track bleach mind, hehe)...Most anything in too strong a dilution will degrade a non-catylized and some catylized or cured finishes. The amount of said degradation will vary depending on strength, dwell, and what exactly the finish is. Cured linseed is going to be different in chemical durability lets say than standard water based acrylic or crosslinked water based acrylic.

Why them manu recommend using bleach you ask?... I can only guess it cause they know that in right dilution it will not overtly damage most exterior finish beyond some acceptable level. That is not to say it don't do some level of damage. Remember, I was pointing it out that some say such on label just before you and apparently maybe for same reasons. It could also be that they know their product or they think they know everyones wood, or they know bleach don't make for much of a degreaser, or perhaps they be ignorant to whatever fact we choose to label them..haha..don't really care to question their motive really when I know it is about making money and trying to be on the 'RIGHT' or rather the 'More Right/more powerful' side of the ongoing debate themselves... they surely not taking the PC side that fer sure..lol (am not one for or against pc mind you)

Your all welcome to use them recommendations of the manufactures as an ammo FOR the bleach gun if ya like.

Point that some stain manufacture might enjoy discussing is that they know their stain changes color or lightens when it comes in contact with bleach.

Haven't confirmed it either way with a variety of stain myself but I am not at all willing to discount the idea as it has been passed down by old timers way older and wiser than myself. Not to discount anyones experience here on this board but I fail to see any of us as experts beyond that of some really old timer guys. I mean they don't use computers and got a foot or twio in the grave already and we don't really have the bennefit of their imput here.

So who has put a cup of bleach or hydroxide in a few variety of stain to see if shade changes, etc?.. maybe a cup to a gallon show us something.. don't know. But in there lay my interests and why I shy towards acid washing and/or a real good rinsing after using bleach or anything up the ph scale or of a bleaching type chem for that matter.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

.....They darken the wood and raise the grain......

Please point me to where the darkness thing is proven or discussed before.

Not sure if you ever responded another time when we touched on the subject. Think I shared my experience that I seen no such thing beyond leaving some gray fir which happens to show as real dark when wet on redwood. Reason being for darkness would be the imply then that the chem is not strong enough in some situation to remove the gray not that it darkens the wood more so than another alkaline chem. If you scrape the wet dark fir with fingernail it will be seen that the good wet wood below the dead is not dark. That would need explaining don't ya think since it too is very wet with percarb. But for most part when these top dead layers that go unremoved due to lack of strength dries it goes as lite as the next chem far as I can tell.

To speed up and really see things lighten we know that acid is a good bet to use.

I think what many of you bleach people would really like to say is that bleach seems to cut through gray layers to the fresh wood and at same time not make it quite as dark as some other high ph chems such as mainly hydroxide..That fair to say?

Regardless I'll stress my meager point in saying I use acid for the wood itself and for the stain itself due to unanswered questions. IS aside from bleach debate...carry on.. :)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

It's my understanding that "raising the grain" as it is called, is actually the result of removing the softer wood, and is the result of too much pressure....

Beth

[MMI Enterprises 289]

More so than that Beth my understanding is that firstly it is a preexisting condition unrelated to chems and is due to normal wood shrinkage and the resulting natural oil loss...but maybe I am confusing the different definitions of wood conditions..

You seem to be implying a condition that only shows itself after cleaning wheras I am refering to examples of it raised even before.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Raised grain is a misnomer in terms of referring to the hills and valleys that are created when the softer early wood is removed from between the harder late wood.

The term "Raised grain" when used accurately refers to a situation where dried wood is exposed to water and the grain raises as it absorbs the moisture. This can be seen in most untreated lumber with a drip test. The undesired result can be remedied by sanding.

Pressure treated lumber is already soaked with a specific concentration of water and a preservative which is determined by its designated usage of ground contact or above ground contact. Each has a respectively different concentration of the solution infused by pressurization. Certain cuts will exhibit raised grain while others will not. This is created by moisture.

Now, the ribbed grain patterns most people notice on their decks which is created by a number of different causes is not only done by chemicals but also, weathering and high pressure cleaning. It is arbitrary in the fact that a chemical creates the ribbed grain but truer to the fact is that the method of cleaning creates the condition. Too strong a chemical can destroy the lignin in the wood making it easy for the early wood to be removed by brushing, water washing or a pressure washing process.

The fact of the matter is that no matter what method one employs to clean a deck, the grain may suffer if the deck has not been properly protected or has been subjected to extensive use and/or neglect. We can all argue the various pro's and con's of any specific chemical or process but keep in mind that if the condition results, sanding will alleviate it.

It is possible to use NAOH (Sodium Hydroxide based cleaners/strippers) or percarbonates or bleach to clean a deck, BUT!!!! in the correct diluted strength as it pertains to each. If you are stripping a deck (can't do it with bleach...sorry James) you will most likely get this result. Plan to sand it afterwards. If the deck has been allowed to age and weather for a prolonged period of time, the condition will occur as well.

There are a number of different ways ribbed grain can happen and not many to always avoid it.

Rod!~

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Sounds'bout right to me Rod...

Wolman agrees in the misnomer apparently as well. They define the term as such:

"Raised Grain – A roughened condition of the surface of dressed lumber in which the harder latewood is

raised above the softer earlywood but not torn loose from it; similar to a corrugated surface. It’s usually

caused by the cyclic wetting and drying of the surface, resulting in swelling and shrinking of the latewood and

earlywood bands of individual annual rings."

...leaves out talk of chems or contractor error...maybe for good reason, but also leaves room for other causes with "usually".. The deeper delving into chems causing more swell or faster loss of lignin or oils is to me of lesser importance compared to the cause by moisture cycles but I am open to seeing proof of chem damage causing it without weather exposure. I mean has anyone ever shown boards not exposed to exterior weather cycles of moisture but were exposed to chems and they ended up with raised grain? One might think we should see alot of interior wood surface with raised grain but I can't say I have as most of itis permenant finish.

I can tell ya though that I have cleaned and stripped my fair share of wooden flooring with chems of many sorts over the years and still never saw it. It all swells about equal is what I always saw.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Kevin -

If you pressure wash those interior floors with too much pressure you'll see that raised grain. ;)

Beth

[James 625]

Look woodcare has basicaly 5 chems that you should know how to use . Bleach, NOAH, Potassium Hydroxzide, Pre-carbs and acids. Knowing when and how to use each is an advantage not a disadvantage. It's pretty simple.

Bleach Dwellers Association " BDA" our motto is "Supremecy in woodcare". We have a USA and European division.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

There are other chemical and other media that come into wood care as well. The sun does not rise and set around bleach nor will bleach get you through each and every job. What is right on some jobs will not be right on others.

The bottom line is getting professional results with your tools, with as little impact on the wood as possible. If you have done that, you're in great shape.

Beth :groovy3: :cup:

[James 625]

Beth,Actually that 's what have alway's said about bleach and all woodcare chem's be proactive and know how to use them. I alway's have to fight the the Alarmist group attitude about bleach.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Kevin -

If you pressure wash those interior floors with too much pressure you'll see that raised grain. ;)

Beth

Bored today and feel like writing so...

Maybe you missed why the mention of interior wood? Was about chem effects in isolation from cyclical weather, not about mechanical breakdown/fiber removal that might come after.

With that said, yes indeed maybe the early/late wood could exhibit the raised condition if a non flat method of mechanical wear was introduced rather than floor scrubbers or a sander via digging in.... But again it is easy enough to see what I am after. I am after some proof that one chem softens or sets up a piece of wood for this failure more than another.

I hear Rod saying basically that the early/late rings are softened/or lignan affected differently from chem. Where the proof of this?..not saying it doesn't, just want to see it is all..

I see it that yes indeed one ring might loose it's natural oils and durabilities faster than the other via the weathering cycles or maybe yes the chems at play but then we are into the poor practice of using too much pressure to show it. I would contend it needs proven that the wood gets changed from the chem as I suspect the early/late already has these differing softness already irrevokably until sucked dry due to resin/sap distribution. The softness is preset from the naturals. That is common sense as anyone can walk outside and see a piece of wood with raised grain but never having any chem or pressure taken to it.

Trees grow at varying rates through a year or over the years and will have differing amounts of absorbable fiber. When we cut a board out of them no allowance for the natural varying amounts of oils or what the wood would be shaped like if full of moisture/resin/sap or totaly bone dry can be tolerated for as we cut it at a fixed time and space. Therefore any piece of wood will show raised or lowered grain between the rings if all the naturals are removed. Same as fixing a dent with steam we can always change or infuse the cell structures with a fluid to change the flatness. Plain old water will do it or anything we use or apply to it that penetrates. The condition the wood is in when we cut or maintain it is not it's natural state of either being fully alive or fully drained of it's moisture and it's natural growth byproducts.

Wood is just like a sponge. If you take a dried out sponge and apply a couple lines of resin across it and then get it wet it will expand but expand in a corrugated fashion as if it a ring of a tree. If ya do it with oil it will also but if you degrease sponge first it won't. Now answer me this..is the sponge fiber all consistantly distributed and same softness when dry..Answer is yes...Is a tree same through and through. Answer is no on the consistancy of cell distribution. But that relates to the amount of growth difference over the years and not to softness via the amount of hardened byproduct/resin. We can never get around raised grain as we cut it in one point in time that does not account for the fully dried state.

So but anyways.. feel free to point me to the info that shows the fully drained wood being softer between the rings or info showing chems softening ring areas differently. To me this whole secondary topic of 'raised' grain on our part is about resin being there or not..perhaps bleach don't take it away as fast as other chems..afterall, everyone knows a degreasing type product will disolve various oils faster than other chems....that's my fence sitting position folks.. you could say I agree with James and Beth both. James speaks in absolutes and so does Beth...all here are correct in their own way...haha :)

My adivice is that if your going to strip and open the wood up then your going to be in a position of raising a grain (although almost microscopic it can still be felt) with any liquid.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Look woodcare has basicaly 5 chems that you should know how to use . Bleach, NOAH, Potassium Hydroxzide, Pre-carbs and acids. Knowing when and how to use each is an advantage not a disadvantage. It's pretty simple.

For someone who has been doing it as many years as you have it may be simple, but to others who are just getting started perhaps the fact that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and more if beneficial is what I think you are trying to say.

For those who are trying to make sense of it all, the premise is this; learn about the reasons for each chemicals uses and the limitations/potentials and drawbacks of each. Learn about inter-chemical reactions and the hazards they can create by mixing the wrong ones.

Understanding these helps one to make better use of the chemicals and also to understand when one becomes over kill.

Kevin, you could benefit greatly from this: Forest Products Laboratory -- Forest Service -- USDA

There is all the information regarding your proof you could need. It is where much of my intrinsic wood education comes from in addition to AWPA - The American Wood Preservers' Association and some others that I like to visit.

Happy reading.

Rod!~

[MMI Enterprises 289]

I'm there man.. thanx heaps!!.. Will try to pass back in summation anything related if I get chance.

I get knowledge everywhere I can find it and am sure you respect and understand the simple goal of justifying our claims directly from valid or respected sources..

For instance I've relatives with college learnin in the Forest Service and old time painters that I gleam off but as we all know 3rd party heresay really is just that..

[James 625]

The funny thing is I'll talk to somebody with 10 years service that can't use or wil try bleach? Because of the woodcare Alarmist! Then they see the work of the BDA and say Ma Ma Me Ya..........!

This year I solved one of the bigest problems in woodcare. All type's of top level's of wood pro's were involed. A deck sealing company, A sealer maker, the forestry, then I got called. Me solved it !! Pretty funny lissening to all the jargen here. What was the answer? BLEACH......................YAH !! You can do anything you want but don't step on my BleAcheD SWadE ShoeS.......

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Different strokes for different folks on general cleaning I suppose...

When it comes to solving an actual issue though then fer sure ya got to consider options and then make point to choose the best option for task at hand even if it outside yer game plan. As them be the times to put forth your best without excessive regard to pride, price, efficiency, etc.

For me the idea of flexability in what I use could pose small problem to some though. Take for instance a business pushing their wares as green or eco friendly yadda yadda ..they can't ethically go outside their game plan to fix a special issue just cause it special issue now could they?... :)

Happened to be browsing Messmer's in regard to a question elsewhere and noticed the consession of voting for bleach directly after not voting for bleach..sort of funny the halfway conflicting statements..

"Q: Can't I just use bleach?

A: Bleach is not recommended for cleaning wood. It destroys the lignin which connects the wood fibers together and gives the wood an unnatural washed-out look. Bleach should only be used to remove mildew before applying a wood finish.

Q: I have a dark discoloration on the wood, is it mildew?

A: Place a drop of bleach (sodium hypochlorite solution) on the wood. If it lightens, it is probably mildew. Remove it with a solution of one part household bleach to two parts water, then rinse with water. If it doesn't lighten, it's probably just dirt, or wood extractives. Use Messmer's Part A or WD Liquid to clean the wood. "