The fight against composite decking

[Barry M 73]

Is it just me, or am I starting to see a trend of composite decking companies leaving a bad taste in the mouth of consumers. More and more I hear people complaining about warping issues, fading, and mildew problems. I've heard it from customers that have taken the leap, family, friends, and just different people I've talked to in my area. Over on the Bob Vila DIY board there is post after post of upset consumers bashing composite decking companies like trex, geo decking, correct deck, and on and on. There are quite a few banning together over there to petition a law suit against Correct Deck. I hope people are starting to realize composite isn't all that. It certainly isn't maintenance free as we all know, and I think that is what's ticking the public off because its sold to them as being "maintenance free." For the past few years its been the thing to get, a composite deck and those cheap vinyl fences (which really aren't that cheap). I hope the trend starts coming back to wooden decks and having them maintained by professionals like us.

[bigchaz 157]

technology couldnt beat nature this time around

[Barry M 73]

Well put Charlie, I agree.

[plainpainter 217]

Honestly you'd think by this point in time that technology could beat mother nature - I don't care what they have - as long as they pay me to clean them. I am a painter - and every house that has vinyl is a lost customer - that's ok - cause I make money cleaning them.

[anthony szabo 14]

Where do I start?

We have been cleaning composite decks for the last five years or better in eleven States in the Midwest. In all, about 300 decks give or take.

Composite decks are made of bi-products from plastic and sawdust. The sawdust is of different types of woods??

Now here seems to be the problems. When the decking boards get "wet" the water does penatrate into the boards and those wood fibers "sawdust" gets wet and the water has a hard time to dry out or can not dry out. Over time mildew starts to grow in the wood and then the Mildew leaches out showing black spots all over the decking. This is why the Composite Decking Companies instructions are having the cleaning done with bleach and their other cleaners to help neutralize the bleach to make it user "friendly". After the cleaning is done they now want you to use a sealer to be applied to the composite boards to help stop or show down the moisture soaking back in the composite boards.

Over time the sealers will break down and the problem starts all over again!

Sometimes the mildew will come back as soon as a few months or it may stay away for a years or so. It just depends on the moisture getting into the composite boards.

The Test:

Look at a composite deck and where the soft area of a house hangs over the decking and you will notice the boards next to the house wall have no mildew issues, because the boards receive little to no water on them.

Or

Look where a umbrella stan sits or other things on the decking that shed the water from getting to the decking. You will find its mildew Free.

There is a huge market out there to clean and maintain these decks.

We are no longer involved with the Composite Deck Manufactures because they manipulate and deceive the home owners of this issue. Our name and reputation is much more important than a fast buck. We have made several $100,000's of dollars in the last several years and I elect not to deal with unethical people. But we will service residential customers on a one on one basis to help them with their long term maintenance issues of composite decks.

[Barry M 73]

Great info Tony and thanks for sharing your experience. That is mostly why I am so adamant about disliking composite decking companies, because they deceive consumers by pitching it as maintenance free. It just isn't right.

[plainpainter 217]

Barry - who cares - what are you, the caped crusader? If people want composite decking - let them have it - there is great money in cleaning it. I personally think it's ugly as sin, and would never entertain the thought of it on my deck. But who cares - loads of money to clean it - I like money.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Hey Tony,

I was told that the black stuff leaching out of the composite decking was tannin from the wood that was used in the production of the material.

I use oxalic acid to get rid of it ... temporarily that is ... until the bleed starts again, and again...etc.

Funny thing though, the composite manufacturers will void the warranty if any acid is ever used to clean the deck with. Bleach won't touch it, based upon the ones we have done.

Any thoughts?

Rod!~

btw, signed up for the Trex remediation contractor referral and never got a call to go fix any of their deck problems named in the judgment locally, anyone get in on that one?

[Jeff 232]

Barry - who cares - what are you, the caped crusader? If people want composite decking - let them have it - there is great money in cleaning it. I personally think it's ugly as sin, and would never entertain the thought of it on my deck. But who cares - loads of money to clean it - I like money.

Theres more money per sq ft rates in stipping, cleaning and sealing real wood. Do you do wood decks? Whats your rates for composite? whats your rates for stripping, cleaning and staining wood or do you just spray bleach and blast it with pressure? Just wondering I dont do wood anymore

If everyone had wood and there was no composite, if you priced it right you would make a lot more with wood

[anthony szabo 14]

Rod

With all of the composite deck work orders we have received from T**** I would say about all of them had Mildew as the issue to clean them stated on the work orders. We have done only about a total of five to seven in total with tannin bleed from the estimate of 300 decks in so many years that we completed in general.

There was a different procedure for the tannin bleed decks, and it was a product with oxalic acid we were instructed to use.

From some in-depth research several years back if I recall correctly, there is two composite deck producing plants one is in the Pacific Northwest and one in the Southeast States. The Plant in the Southeast area has produced more problems after the boards are manufactured with mildew issues because of the type of trees used in the production of the wood bi products? (Something of that sort from what I recall). More mildew issues in the Midwest and Eastern US than the Western half of the US??

I did this research a few years ago when we were heavy in the composite deck cleanings.

[GymRat 14]

The trend in my area is stone, stamped concrete, and pavers. I love the rocks a lot better than wood of any sort. We are all going to low maint. homes and it only makes sense to me to pay a few more dollars up front and have your patio made of stone vs wood. If you do nothing to a paver patio for 20 years- it will still look good, try the same with any type wood.

[Barry M 73]

Theres more money per sq ft rates in stipping, cleaning and sealing real wood. Do you do wood decks? Whats your rates for composite? whats your rates for stripping, cleaning and staining wood or do you just spray bleach and blast it with pressure? Just wondering I dont do wood anymore

If everyone had wood and there was no composite, if you priced it right you would make a lot more with wood

I wasn't even going to waste my time explaining it to an hourly rate mentality painter, but you hit the nail on the head.

[FCPWLLC 233]

Barry - who cares - what are you, the caped crusader? If people want composite decking - let them have it - there is great money in cleaning it. I personally think it's ugly as sin, and would never entertain the thought of it on my deck. But who cares - loads of money to clean it - I like money.

ME!!

The largest problem with composite I have found is that because it was pitched heavily as a maintenance free product, the consumer pays heavily up front and then finds out that I want $150+/hr to clean it. They are outraged. Who gets the beating? We do... The guy presently in front of them delivering the bad news while asking for $$$ to clean.

No different thant the hack that pitches a stain like "One Time" and then a few years later, we are the bad guy delivering the bad news that it wasn't "One Time". Another objection for us to overcome. Barry and I hate the scammers out there. Deck builder looking for more margin or larger ticket jobs out there fibbing about maintenance free composite. Hack PW pitching One Time to get more $$. It only creates a bad environment for those of us with ethics and run legit businesses.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Micheal I am glad I don't have your customers. :arg:

We get so much mildew and algae in our neck of the woods that it is not a question of needing cleaning but how much they are willing to shell out to have it done.

In our area, the pitch is that one doesn't have to stain it or seal it. Cleaning is an expectation set ahead of time but only with predetermined cleaners other wise the warranty is voided. Maybe you could include this in your pitch to keep the hacks from undercutting you? Granted, not all decks you may be going to wash are still under any warranty but it could help to convince your clients that the hacks are going to do damage that will shorten the life of their investment. Just food for thought in case you haven't done this but if you have and it isn't working for you then forget I mentioned it. :2eyes:

Tony,

That's good to know that certain plants are the contributing causes. It's little details like that that help us to answer questions the customers have.

Rod!~

[A and J POWERWASHING 64]

We have had some bad compsite decks this year , lot of mildew and the fisrt thing every customers say when i bougt this stuff they had i will not have to clean it just spray it off with water ... (does not work that way) and do not buy (tan or brown ) lol.

[Neil_Asheville 114]

I finished a cedar deck Aug '06 that had brown Trex attached as a bandboard fascia. It was a nice look with the cedar pickets. Anyhoo, we sealed it with Tux WHG. Granted, it's a vert surface, but I was having cocktails this past Sunday on the deck and the finished Trex still looks like the day it was sprayed. It turned the ashy brown to a nice deep wet...tone. I have a sample board that I may stain up and put it out to Winter.

cheers,

/neil

[bigchaz 157]

I do like how you can get that flex on the composite wood. Really smooth look for that landing

[plainpainter 217]

Barry - I charge $0.75/sq.ft. to clean trex. And about $1.60+ to strip/ph-balance/stain wood. Which seems in line with what most guys do. And I the russell cissel estimation - so that just isn't sq. footage of the floor either. Hands down - this hourly-rate-mentality - painter makes more money on cleaning trex per hour than restoring wood. And with wood - you just never know what you're gonna get sometimes. And painters have been around for a long long long time - pressure washing is relatively new - enjoy the money while you can, new enterprises usually make good money. I'd like to see you restore a 2400sq.ft. colonial with 10 layers or lead paint in 400 man hours, and explain to a customer that you're worth $100/man-hour. And if the illegals can bring down the painting trades - I am sure it's a matter of time before they do the same in pressure washing, enjoy while you can.

[Barry M 73]

I like you Daniel I really do. You bring a lot to the board and we've had great discussions before and you've been helpful to me so I mean no disrespect.

You just have a different mentality than I, that's all. I'm in business to make money not to work my a$$ off just to make a living. If and when the pressure washing industry gets that bad I will get out, its that simple. There is already other endeavors on my plate now, so its not like I'm stuck doing this the rest of my life. But while I'm here I will continue to be passionate about the industry and to express my feelings.

I'm glad you can make good money cleaning composite decks, I can't. Not what I consider good money anyway. Now if there were ways to improve efficiency and the time spent cleaning composites and I could clean a good sized one in 20 minutes, like I can strip a wood one, then it would drastically improve the profit margin and I would be more prone to offer that service. I would probably also quit griping about people tearing down neglected wood decks and putting up plastic ones. But in my experience there is no fast way to clean a composite deck and most of the time they are a huge PITA, so I fight that by charging more and people don't want to pay that just to clean a deck. But yet they are angry at the fact that the deck material was sold to them as "maintenance free." So I still believe the root of the problem are these composite deck companies misleading the public just to make a buck. It's wrong and it should be considered false advertising and they should be held responsible. In the meantime I will let guys like you make what you consider good money cleaning them, because my time is worth more than that.

[plainpainter 217]

The root of the problem, Barry, is the customer who has been lied to and lied to time and time again - and they still think there is a magic maintenance free product out there. What's that saying...fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice shame on me! It's like in painting - guys underprice me by half, and customers are like - why should I pay you double - and I am like, lowballing hacks screwed you over before with lousy paint jobs - and you're still going to bite? Anyways - I hear ya on the extra effort to clean up trex - it's not nearly as fast as downstreaming stripper and acid - but heck I will brush a deck for $0.75 a sq.ft. Just think - there are guys who will sand hardwood floors and 3 coats of poly for $1.50/sq.ft. And guys who will veneer plaster a blueboard wall for $0.80/sq.ft. And I know that is comparing apples to oranges - and doesn't include the whole picture. Still scrubbing decking ain't nearly as time consuming as plastering.