Armstrong Clark

[bigchaz 157]

**Edit (July 2010)**

For those of you stumbling upon this post through Google Search, I wanted to report an update that Apex DeckSavers (providing deck cleaning, deck restoration, and deck staining services in the Apex, Cary, Raleigh, Chapel Hill North Carolina) has been using Armstrong Clark stain for over two years now with amazing results. Coverage is great, oil penetrates deep on the older woods, and the color tone is fantastic. No color shift from the decks I've been tracking either. Scotts been carrying it at the www.thesealerstore.com so all you East Coast folks can get it from there. We primarily restore Pressure Treated Pine and use the Armstrong Clark Semi-Transparent stains for most applications.

Anyone with questions is welcome to email me at charlie(at)apexdecksavers(dot)com

The thread below is several years old and has some great information on the stain before it became well known around the country. Thanks to all that contributed to the thread and the exposure this post has generated for Armstrong Clark.

*****

I'm looking for anyone who has used Armstrong Clark stains or has experimented with them for some time now.

Theres some info in the 2008 sealer poll but I'm looking for people who has used it on a job to give their impressions

What kind of coverage did you get?

Where to purchase it?

Whats the viscosity of the oil?

And finally does anyone have photos of the stain on a deck? Pressure treated pine would be nice. Cedar and Rustic colors in particular

Thanks

Edited July 22, 2010 by bigchaz
Update on post

[YVPW 20]

yeah it is very similar in color to Brown Sugar. I've got some more stuff coming from AC. I'm gonna play with some colors on semi-new and old wood to see what I can come up with.

[YVPW 20]

After reviewing my posts on this topic I wanted to clear something up. I still think Wood Tux and Stain & Seal look the best on newer wood(logs, hardwoods etc.) I think AC is better for older wood. Really Wood Tux by itself shouldn't be used to restore old weathered wood. Like Rick has mentioned in the past that parrafin oil based stains are the best for wood.

[bigchaz 157]

After reviewing my posts on this topic I wanted to clear something up. I still think Wood Tux and Stain & Seal look the best on newer wood(logs, hardwoods etc.) I think AC is better for older wood. Really Wood Tux by itself shouldn't be used to restore old weathered wood. Like Rick has mentioned in the past that parrafin oil based stains are the best for wood.

We must be running with the same brain. I love woodtux on newer wood, but with older stuff it seems to take much more product and doesn't finish quite the same. Thats why im thinking AC will work well on the dryer stuff, especially seeing as their colors are similar and the stain still has the curing aspect to it like woodtux

[YVPW 20]

Charlie I guess great minds think alike, lol. Well anyway on to the topic..

IMO if we are truly in business to restore old weathered wood, we should never use just a straight alkyd whether mineral spirits or water or anything else is the carrier(I think Wood Tux does have some parrafin oil in it, but a stain for restored wood needs quite a bit more). And most definitely not a water based product. When the wood is new the natural sugars and oils are for the most part still in the wood, especially deep down. That's where a product like Wood Tux or for Log Homes water based stains can come in.

Charlie you need to try Baker's Gray Away and AC on an old deck. It will look much better than Wood Tux or Stain & Seal and you are actually restoring the wood. Stain & Seal does have more parrafin oil in it, but IMO it still doesn't come close to doing what Baker's and AC do. I'm sure TWP has some stains that fit the bill also, just haven't used them. Tom Baker down at Texas Wood Products can also make a deck blend that has more mineral spirits and less parrafin oil, it finishes beautifully. More for the semi-new decks, 3 year range. You have to order at least 40 gallons for him to make that blend. It's probably more like TWP 100 series. That is, If I've understood correctly about the 100 series.

[bigchaz 157]

I don't want to get to into messing with a special bakers blend or twp. From what I understand TWP 100 will be gone next year when they switch the VOC regulations to California standard. I cant help but imagine Bakers will probably have the same fate. Any idea what percent solvent they have? Also ive had great sucess only offering two woodtux colors so far. I dont want to get too deep into dealing with people who want me to use a certain product simply because it has a color they like. I think with AC I can keep it to two brands and simply tell the customer I have to use AC because the deck is so much older.

Also with AC compared to TWP theres no risk of it getting reformulated since they only use 25 percent solvent. This even means you could probably still thin with mineral spirits for fence jobs or a more transparent coverage

Ive also recently used woodrich timberoil with a top coat of woodtux. Thats gets your paraffins in the wood with the longevity of woodtux on top to seal it in.

[RPetry 564]

Jason,

Armstrong-Clark stains are 50% linseed oil, 50% paraffinic oil from what I have been told. Baker's is I think clay pigment but 100% paraffinic oil. But not VOC compliant in the 7 or 8 states on the East coast and Ca..

Do know that TWP at least use to make a 100% paraffinic oil stain, Amteco based, but again not available due to VOC regs. here on the East Coast.

Hmmm... And who does that leave?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I don't want to get to into messing with a special bakers blend or twp. From what I understand TWP 100 will be gone next year when they switch the VOC regulations to California standard. Correct I cant help but imagine Bakers will probably have the same fate. Correct Any idea what percent solvent they have? Also ive had great sucess only offering two woodtux colors so far. I dont want to get too deep into dealing with people who want me to use a certain product simply because it has a color they like. I think with AC I can keep it to two brands and simply tell the customer I have to use AC because the deck is so much older.

Also with AC compared to TWP theres no risk of it getting reformulated since they only use 25 percent solvent. This even means you could probably still thin with mineral spirits for fence jobs or a more transparent coverage

Ive also recently used woodrich timberoil with a top coat of woodtux. Thats gets your paraffins in the wood with the longevity of woodtux on top to seal it in. Bingo!

It doesn't have to be one or the other at all... ;)

Beth :cup:

p.s. for those who doubt, don't, the VOC laws are going to be NATIONWIDE in the very near future.....2009 I believe is the compliant year....

[James 625]

Solid content is important for non drying oils because it rebulks the wood fibers. You will see this less when you have a drying oil mixed with a NDO( nondryingoil). I think Bakers is 60 to 65% solids. RS 85%. TWP has a94% down to a 40 with thear series. AC is 50% NDO and 25% drying oil ( linseed).

Some of these numbers maybe a % off .

[YVPW 20]

Baker's uses copper pigment. Baker's is 100% paraffin oil but it has a great spread rate. I have mixed it with other stuff to get curing properties. The deck blend has less overall solids if you count oil as a solid, but it will last longer on a deck. It also looks better since there isn't so much oil to turn the wood dark. Mainly to be used on newer wood.

One thing stain manufacturers can do is ship the contractors the concentrate and let us add our on MS. I know of at least one company doing that. I have tested one of those products, but the product didn't have any parrafin oil in it and I didn't like it, although they can ship you the oil too. Too much trouble doing all that mixing when there's already manufacturers that have those type of products made up and ready to be shipped. But as you all said in the near future that may have to be done if that is the type of stain one desires since they will be changing the VOC laws.

A lot of the manufacturers count parrafin oil as a solid, which it is since it doesn't evaporate. While others like Russell count solids in Wood Tux as pigment and resin. Both of these are definitely important numbers. They effect the look of the stain, longevity and the replenishment of oil to wood. Ready Seal and Timber Oil both have to be high in the parrafin oil & pigment solids. Both are great at restoring wood.

Charlie, using both of those stains together is a great combination. It's just a hassle to change products during the job or having to come back and stain later with Wood Tux. IMO the best thing to do is use a stain with the combination of both on older wood. Which I'm sure that's why you've considered AC. I think you will like it.

Edited June 24, 2008 by YVPW

[bigchaz 157]

Where have you been all my life?

geez great post

[RPetry 564]

Baker's uses copper pigment. ...

Jason,

That is interesting. Have not heard of semi-trans stain manufacturers using copper for pigment. Most common is iron oxides or clays from what I know. There must be other pigments, care to comment on benefits or otherwise of copper?

[plainpainter 217]

It doesn't have to be one or the other at all... ;)

Beth :cup:

p.s. for those who doubt, don't, the VOC laws are going to be NATIONWIDE in the very near future.....2009 I believe is the compliant year....

Funny, Beth, how a local paint company in the north east where the limit is 350g/liter of VOC's manufactures a product that emits 600g/liter - and does it legally! All those VOC laws are a just a ruse to make smaller companies suffer. If anyone is worried about VOC laws - don't be, I don't care if it's 2009, 2019 - there will always be oil based VOC emitting products that you can buy in one form or another. Perfect example - companies rename their 'primers' to 'sealers' - and their products have become 100% exempt from these up an coming VOC laws - or they pay levies that smaller companies can't afford. Krikes - I can even get lead based oil paint if I really wanted too. You just have to know where to look.

[YVPW 20]

Rick, I have never heard of it either. That's one question I would like to know. The pigment at the bottom of a bucket of Gray Away feels like clay, maybe it's a blend? I love the buckets that Baker's comes in. I wish all stain manufacturers used them. I've did a search on copper pigment trying to find some answers in the past. Maybe Ken, Daniel or Jim has some insight on it. Only thing that has came up in searches is old copper pigmented paint, how that copper has been used for 100's of years.

All I've ever heard is that transoxide's are the best, but side by side with AC the Baker's doesn't look any different. Maybe with UV's the transoxide's are better at least that's what they say.

[RPetry 564]

For those that may be interested, I'll pass along an email I received from Jake Clark of Armstrong-Clark. Note A/C is Armstrong-Clark Company.

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Rick,

A/C formulas have three components: drying oils (37%) , nondrying oils (38%) and solvent (25%).

Our drying oil is made with linseed oil as it's main component. Within the dry side of the formula we include adequate fungicide, transparent oxide pigments, some natural pigments, dryers, water repellants and several proprietary components. This dry side of the formula is designed to stay on or just inside the wood.

The nondrying oils are mainly paraffinic. Since paraffinic oil is lighter than water and can lift with the rain, we fortify the oil with additives that return the paraffin and increase the weight. These nondrying oils completely separate from the drying oils and soak deep into the wood to restore lost natural oils and to dramatically increase the useful life of the wood.

The solvent is added to increase the penetrating power of the oils. The solvent allows the drying and nondrying oils to penetrate into the wood fibers and return to their original viscosity for increased longevity.

This approach to formulation has allowed our stains to be applied to virtually any wood substrate, from hard woods, to pressure treated soft woods, to T111.

Rick, I hope this helps and if I can answer any questions, my direct lines are open to all.

Sincerely Yours,

Jake

1 209 588 1160 office

1 209 541 6579 cell

www.armclark.com

Guess that is the bottom line, from the horse's mouth. Now, who can get me 2 camels in Luxor, Egypt in January?

[YVPW 20]

Thanks Charlie....I think you're referring to me

I have visited this website almost everyday for 2 1/2 years. I feel like I know most on here, even though I don't post much. I've always enjoyed reading these forums. Thanks Beth & Rod and everyone who supports the site.

[YVPW 20]

Thanks for sharing that Rick

Makes me like the stain even more.

[RPetry 564]

Jason,

You are welcome. Hope others benefit. A-C may be a real new player in stains. We need one.

But seriously, anyone have a line on camels?

[bigchaz 157]

As you can tell from his email to Rick, Mr Clark has been a great help to people interested in the stain. He's excited about this industry and his availability to speak to directly to contractors seems to show his company's dedication to customer service.

Apparently the term is "gun shy" but i think AC realizes that not everyone is going to jump 100 percent behind the stain until the field tests come through. But they obviously are confident in the product and even sent me more samples to do some additional work with.

Ive got a deck slated for July 7th with Armstrong Clark Cedartone and ill be sure to post my thoughts. Id appreciate y'all getting some samples and letting me know how it works out for you. The more perspectives, the better for people to decide

[Celeste 341]

We're putting it down on two decks in the mountains the week of July 7th as well Charlie. This one gets full sun for a nice part of the day with the side areas fully shaded. One new wood, one ancient wood. Looks like a great test subject :)

[YVPW 20]

Celeste, what colors are you using, semi-trans? I would like to see how the transparent colors do on older wood. I know the semi-trans look good on older wood. I've got some of the special blend Super Cedar that I'm gonna try soon.

[Celeste 341]

We're getting some of the special blend Super Cedar.

[YVPW 20]

Celeste, you wanna pic of it on a PT board along with some of there other colors?

[Celeste 341]

Thanks, but I've got a full range of stuff coming and boards waiting :)

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Seems the more complex formulations get the more simple or old time they really are.

My dear old dad swears by thompsons mixed with linseed.

I always notice that most diy stain recipes handed down or found around the net use about the same ratios of ingredents.

Here's an idea..in a pinch try boiling up some Alboline for a paraffinic repellant additive.

I don't doubt the talk of copper as being ingredients for pigment...Main stuff to get the green or blue tones in concrete staining are copper. (I've used root killer :) ). Other metals are iron and mangenese. Of course metals would be the contributing element in what some are familiar as calling clay pigments. Interesting to think about...when it comes down to it though, wood care requires all the stuff of fungicide, etc..

[RPetry 564]

Kevin,

You stated:

Here's an idea..in a pinch try boiling up some Alboline for a paraffinic repellant additive.

And further added:

Seems the more complex formulations get the more simple or old time they really are. My dear old dad swears by thompsons mixed with linseed.

WTF? Abalone is for eating, best shellfish in the world. What the frick is Alboline? And Dad and Thompson's with linseed is about WWII tech.