Honda vs. ZongShen engins

[Robo_Spray 18]

I got the EnviroSpec April flier yesterday and was thinkig about building a new Machine for this year. I was looking at getting a 13 horse motor that they have on 2008 clearence. the honda is $455 and thew zs is $285. I currently use honda engins, Karchers, as I do mostly oven hoods but this year I am going to branch out into a lot more residental and commerical building washing. I would like to find a 6 gpm pump to go with it. I would like to take the about $200 difference and get a good quality pump. Oh and a cart comes with the price too. Thoughts?

[814jeffw 71]

Never heard of the ZS. The price for that Honda is a steal. I think they retail between $700-$800. Even with shipping considered it's a bargain. Hondas are great engines. I guess you mean putting the saved $200.00 TOWARDS the new quality 6 GPM pump. Because I doubt you're gonna get it at $200.00 alone.

I'm not sure 13 hp. is enough to run 6 GPM.

Jeff

Edited April 5, 2009 by 814jeffw

[Robo_Spray 18]

yes that is what I meant - I will have to find out if a 6 gpm will work with a 13. I was reading that to do residental 6 or so is needed, or works bettter than my 3 gpm that I use for my hood cleaning.

[Bilge Cleaner 14]

First off your comparing a well known quality built engine to a unknown ( here in the States) Chinese's import. I went through this when I wanted to buy 2 scooters, the Chinese's ones were great looking and cheap but they were being sold by fly by night companies who didn't carry parts or even know who built the engines ( there like 4000 scooter companies in China)., So I went and bought 2 Yamaha's. Enviro who has been around quite awhile is carrying/selling this ( Chinese's) engine, I'm sure if it was junk they'd have discontinued selling it. Do they keep complete set of parts for it ( instock?), what their warrenty and do you have to send it back to them for the work to be done?? or are the autherized repair facilities inyour State?, I just recently bought a go kart from Sears for my son, it has a 10hp China engine ( Honda knockoff) that also has fwd /reverse tranny which had me a little concerned but the go kart is distributed through Manco who has been in the GK business for years and has authurized (sp) repair shops here in Georgia and the manual has a complete parts list so I figured I'm covered. For $200.00 difference I'd go with the Honda where even the local hardware store carries (basic) parts for them.

Edited April 5, 2009 by Bilge Cleaner

[814jeffw 71]

Although the more GPM the better, you will find a lot of guys using 4 GPM. But I would say 4 GPM is the bare minimum,... but is still enough. Surface cleaners also work better with more flow, especially the larger ones.(20 in. or bigger)

GPM is more important than pressure, but nice to have a good blend.

Jeff

[hoosierwindowtek 14]

I use a $300.00 karcher I bought at Sam's club that puts out 2500/2.5 but with bigger tips I find the gpm is just fine for house washing. I get pretty good flow at a lower pressure from a size 5 or 7 tip and it works great for me.

[814jeffw 71]

The larger tips will not create more flow. If you have a 2.5 GPM machine,...that's all you're gonna get. Large tips only reduce the pressure.

But, with that being said, if you're happy with what you're using,....just keep doing it!!

Jeff

[StainlessDeal 16]

First, about the Chinese motors, I'm sure they are better than they used to be, but I don't generally like them. All the Chonda bikes etc. that I have ever worked on have had serious issues with fit, finish, tolerance, and metallurgy. The 200 bucks savings usually isn't worth what I see as a gamble. Some disagree. I think a 200 dollar insurance policy using a known quantity is worth it. I'm no guinea pig, and everytime I have gone cheap, I have regretted it.

A guy I know sells Hyosung motorcycles. They are well-known and liked in Asia. He hates them, because the plastic used in the fairings is what toy cars and trucks are made of here, not bike parts, and because the frames are made of tin. Yes, tin. Looks like, smells like, seems like steel. Wears like tin. Not steel. Cheap is often, just cheap.

Next, fellas, there is a rule that says users must have a signature here on TGS. Lately members have been complaining that we don't enforce it enough or fairly. Please click on the link at the top left of the page that says "My Controls", go to your user CP, and create a signature. It helps us know who we are talking with, and will net you better, more, and quicker answers.

Thanks, and welcome to TGS.

[Adrian 155]

yes that is what I meant - I will have to find out if a 6 gpm will work with a 13. I was reading that to do residental 6 or so is needed, or works bettter than my 3 gpm that I use for my hood cleaning.

You will need a tank as a back up h2o supply source, if the resi's does not put out 6 gpm for the spiggot.

Most produce 4-5 gpm, which will make your pump work that much harder.

Repairs will chew up that 200.00 savings, most likely the first time around.

[hoosierwindowtek 14]

The larger tips will not create more flow. If you have a 2.5 GPM machine,...that's all you're gonna get. Large tips only reduce the pressure.

But, with that being said, if you're happy with what you're using,....just keep doing it!!

Jeff

My understanding about the pressure/flow equation is that if the pump is rated at Xgpm at Xpsi, then lowering the psi will result in increased gpm up to a point. When a water pump, car engine, or electrical circuit has reduced resistance to flow, then the flow, or current will be greater. It's just physics.

H

[814jeffw 71]

I can't argue,...but I was under the impression that if a pump is rated at a certain GPM, it's rated, at maximum output.

It would be a selling point if nothing else,...to be able to proclaim more flow.

Try using a bucket and a watch.

Maybe someone who knows will straighten it out for us.

Jeff

Edited April 7, 2009 by 814jeffw

[Pat Norman 18]

Did not see an answer about the 13 hp pulling a 6GPM pump. I think your going to need a 20hp engine for that size pump as well as a float (water storage) tank as mentioned. Spend the money and get the Honda engine.

[RMedbery 26]

My understanding about the pressure/flow equation is that if the pump is rated at Xgpm at Xpsi, then lowering the psi will result in increased gpm up to a point. When a water pump, car engine, or electrical circuit has reduced resistance to flow, then the flow, or current will be greater. It's just physics.

H

Then you dont understand physics. A piston will displace X amount of water per stroke. The only way to get more gpm out of a pump is to spin it faster. If you use a larger tip and get more flow then your engine was not turning at its rated rpm with the smaller tip.

[StainlessDeal 16]

The pump is rated at an optimal rpm. The number of strokes per minute, times the volume of the cylinders is your flow. PSI is based solely on flow through the orifice. Water density is static, so if volume is static, the psi is a result of how small the orifice is through which the water is being forced.

If flow increases as pressure decreases, you have a leak, or have been partially in bypass.

[Gutter Squad 14]

You can go higher in the GPM with the 13 HP engine.

You'll just have a lower maximum PSI.

HP x 1100 / GPM = PSI

So... something shy of 2400 PSI as maximum from 13 HP @ 6 GPM.

[homer 64]

We build a lot of the 13's with a Gear Box and a TS2021 General. This is a very popular set-up among many professionals in our industry.

The Max Pressure/PSI you can get out of this configuration is 2500 PSI @ 5.6 GPM- enough to handle about 95% of the jobs. If you can find a 6 GPM pump you will be able to get 2400 PSI.

When we first took on the ZongShen we set it up on a test bench and connected it to a 50 gallon tank of gas. We istalled an EZ Pump / 3500 PSI @4 GPM and placed the high pressure nozzle into a recirculation tank.

We then started the engine. The system had to be shut down in 3 hours to tighten the muffler bolts. We restarted and ran it for 85 hours when we had to replace the pump. We restarted and ran it for another 80 hours.

We had to refil on gas only.

After this test we sold the engine and pump at one of our equipment seminars. As far as I know it is still running today.

Yes, the Honda has been and will probably always be the perfered small engine simply because it was one of the first in the industry. The ZongShen still worth looking at. Another little known fact is that the Kohler 13 is really built for Kohler by Yamaha. Our test shows it ahead of the Honda or ZongShen in the noise and fuel consumption catagories. It also starts easier the either in most cases.

Anyway - I hope I have provided you with the information you are looing for.

Have a great season and remember to 'feed a Stray today.'

[814jeffw 71]

Good info Homer.

Jeff

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I got the EnviroSpec April flier yesterday and was thinkig about building a new Machine for this year. I was looking at getting a 13 horse motor that they have on 2008 clearence. the honda is $455 and thew zs is $285. I currently use honda engins, Karchers, as I do mostly oven hoods but this year I am going to branch out into a lot more residental and commerical building washing. I would like to find a 6 gpm pump to go with it. I would like to take the about $200 difference and get a good quality pump. Oh and a cart comes with the price too. Thoughts?

Robo Spray -

Please go to your MY CONTROLS and add your signature.

Thanks.

Beth :cup:

[Robo_Spray 18]

I'm going to go with the honda, 4.0gmp 4000 psi pump.