Customers need to tell....

[Guest rfitz]

We had a aggregrate driveway job that we quoted and did, it was over 4000 sq ft to clean and seal with V-seal 101 which does nothing to the appearance

it only seals the concrete, which was thoroghly explained to the customer up front, anyway after cleaning, we noticed a blotchy apperance to the aggregrate, after closer inspection, it looks as though someone in the past had used some type of acrylic sealer, which maybe 10-15% was still on the driveway, but spread out all over and blotchy, anyway when finished the customer wasnt happy, with the original exposed aggregrate flat look, and blotch look, I told them on the contract, we were to clean only and seal with V-seal 101 which does nothing to the apperance, now the customers wants the blotchy spots gone and now she wants a sheen, so, I told them it will be triple the cost if we have to strip off the old acrilyc sealer which she denies ever using, (just like customers do when estimating a deck) and re wash, then apply a double coat of V-seal luster seal, this is why you need to put everything in writing as we did upfront which they signed, and they will be charged accordingly, this drive way sealing job will cost them well over $5000 but I guess if you have 4000 sq ft of exposed aggregrate driveway, $5000 isnt much in the whole picture, I figured a driveway like that would cost between $60 to $ 75,000 so to protect it for life at $5000 is pretty cheap insurance....

[One Tough Pressure 580]

The application of a sealer over pre-existing sealer, will almost always enhance the old stuff and create blotches.

Have fun redoing if they agree to the price.

[Paul B. 523]

My sugar-coating coating fell off this morning!

I have 3 phrases for you to look up and digest:

1) Incompetence

- It is a GOOD contractors responsibility to properly diagnose the condition of the substrate and recommend the appropriate coating. If you can't do either, you're not a very good contractor.

V-Seal 101 is a penetrating sealer and provides absolutely no protection for aggregate concrete. The sealer can not penetrate the pebbles. The correct recommendation would have been a film type finish such as Tamms Luster Seal 300 which can be had for well under $10 per gallon (contractor price). Coverage is 200-300 sq ft per gallon. Apply 2 coats 90 degrees to each other. First coat needs to dry before 2nd coat is applied.

2) Arrogance

- After mis-diagnosing the substrate and incorrectly recommending the most expensive penetrating sealer, you place the blame on the customer (remember: contractor = expert; homeowner/customer = amateur) and then proceed to overprice the solution at $1.25 per sq ft.

3) Humble Pie

- You then proceed to post to other contractors how you should put everything in writing because the customer can make the wrong decision.

In this case, the customer's bad action was the choice of the contractor.

- I'll be having some Humble Pie after I post this.

You should consider having some also, and give the customer a break for your mistakes!

[Paul B. 523]

Alan,

You should never try to apply a penetrating sealer over a film type sealer.

The materials for stripping and neutralizing will cost about $0.04-$0.05 per sq ft.

4000 sq ft should take no more than 5 hours to strip and neutralize (that's one person with set-up and tear-down).

You can apply 1 coat of sealer in 2 hours on 4000 sq ft and the only unloading you have is the sprayer and sealer. With 4 trips you are at 15 hours or less in labor. This is not rocket science!

[James 624]

paul that was your best post. .....

[Firedkm 14]

Wow someone woke up on the left side of the bed this morning.:whoops:

I do however agree with you Paul.:)

[One Tough Pressure 580]

Alan,

You should never try to apply a penetrating sealer over a film type sealer.

The materials for stripping and neutralizing will cost about $0.04-$0.05 per sq ft.

4000 sq ft should take no more than 5 hours to strip and neutralize (that's one person with set-up and tear-down).

You can apply 1 coat of sealer in 2 hours on 4000 sq ft and the only unloading you have is the sprayer and sealer. With 4 trips you are at 15 hours or less in labor. This is not rocket science!

Paul,

Thanks for the tips, I am sure they will come in handy when I offer sealing down the road.

[Guest rfitz]

Paul, if you spent half the time working, as you do reading and researching, you may get ahead someday, but I doubt it, anyway, since the exposed aggregrate was a 60-40 mix, which you never asked tells me of your incompetence, on this subject, and after consulting with 3 concrete contractors before bidding, on if this, this was the right sealer, and each one said absolutely, after reading the spec sheet on 3 choices , they hands down chose V-seal, and yes I asked the customer if they had ever sealed it and they said no, and by the way, amusement parks use this product first, then they go with a sheen or hi shine for apperance only, but since you no about 10% of what you preach, and 90% of what you say is based on alot of reading, and research, and very little work, you should keep your stupid Opinions to yourself, or book theory's, since anyone who post's as much as you do, cant be getting squat done in a day, so until you can produce 1/10th of what I produce in a week, and until you know the whole truth you really cant comment, and also, you need to get out, and quit hiding behind your books and computer, and get something done, but if your lucky, your book knowledge and a dime might get you a cheap cup of coffe: ) somewhere..?

[One Tough Pressure 580]

Rob,

You say mistaken again. When has Paul been wrong in the past, I want to see a link to the post.

Paul has hands on knowledge that will run circles around many people, myself and you included. I can admit it, to bad you can't.

To claim Paul is hiding is nonsense, and his posts have been some of the most technical and most useful on this or any boards. Say what you want, but I and many others know what Paul says to be correct and field proven.

Paul could stay home all day and his crews do the work, so a number of posts on this or any other board does not say who is working and who is not.

Based on your past posts and the one above, I expect to see your flames rising again, just wish they were correct when they do.

Paul, if you spent half the time working, as you do reading and researching, you may get ahead someday, but I doubt it, anyway, since the exposed aggregrate was a 60-40 mix, which you never asked tells me of your incompetence, on this subject, and after consulting with 3 concrete contractors before bidding, on if this, this was the right sealer, and each one said absolutely, after reading the spec sheet on 3 choices , they hands down chose V-seal, and yes I asked the customer if they had ever sealed it and they said no, and by the way, amusement parks use this product first, then they go with a sheen or hi shine for apperance only, but since you no about 10% of what you preach, and 90% of what you say is based on alot of reading, and research, and very little work, you should keep your stupid Opinions to yourself, or book theory's, since anyone who post's as much as you do, cant be getting squat done in a day, so until you can produce 1/10th of what I produce in a week, and until you know the whole truth you really cant comment, and also, you need to get out, and quit hiding behind your books and computer, and get something done, but if your lucky, your book knowledge and a dime might get you a cheap cup of coffe: ) somewhere..?

[Aplus 525]

Rob,

How is it that you have become an expert on everything in this field in the past year? I believe most of us were doing this work when you were still popping zits on the bathroom mirror.

[Guest rfitz]

Tony,

I washed and stained my own 3000 sq ft cedar home and 1100 sq ft deck,

in 1992, did 7 neighbors homes and decks, roofs for side money 93-98, while in printing industry, sold and did commercial power washing and sold chemicals to pw Comp. and other industries, 1997- 2001,(still doing commercial pw sales) as a sub contractor, so in all, I guess over 11 years, in the PW and chemical industry, so I know a little about it...:) also,I never once called Paul out on his post, but he has exagerated quite a few claims, but who hasnt..?

And knowing too much can be as dangerous as knowing too little, Both will and do get everyone in trouble, Is Paul wrong on this 60-40 mix..? Yes, at least 3 concrete contarctors All cant be wrong, ? or does Paul know more than their 150 years in Family owned concrete business's...? They would have no reason to lye to me, they are friends, not selling me V-seal, and when you have a 60-40 mix of concrete to exposed aggregrate, Yes V-seal will work, and does, and just to clarify, I will post Paul's reply to the people at V-seal, and then give you their reply, as to not give you my opinion, on Pauls misjudgement on this topic, but theirs.. So, I too could bash 25-35 people a week on this board a week on how I think what they are doing is wrong as Paul does, But I dont, why..? Because I am not ego driven, it doesnt make me look smart or better by doing that, as it just makes others who do it (Paul)

foolish and unable to have an open mind to the fact, that they are not always right, The old saying is True, if you dont have something nice to say....

You know the rest, Paul should keep this in mind when he himself, and very few others respect what he says, Im sorry, But me and many others dont pay too much attention to him.. Or anyone else who thinks they know it all, and there is no other way...

[Rick G 14]

Paul, what products or type of products do you recommend for stripping and neutralizing concrete? Also is there a good source on the web to educate me on the care of concrete? This is a field I would like to add to my service, specifically brick pavers but I would like to be prepared for all types I may encounter. Thanks and keep up the good work here. I have learned a great deal from your past posts. Rick G

[Firedkm 14]

Rob,

I will stand a little corrected myself and I should have asked you first. I assumed you did not ask the customer and you did. That was the right thing to do. You can't always go by what they say either, since it was not true. They may not have sealed the driveway before but I do think Paul is right in one point. We as a contractor should be able to tell if it was sealed or not. I would not be able to myself. In NJ sealing concrete is not popular. I would tend to think there is a way to tell and maybe you may want to research this and even let us know how to do it. Maybe Paul could enlighten us to if he knows how to tell to.

For you to have on the contract of what was to be done was right and you should stick to it. I am also sure its very agrivating having the customer come down on you but unfortunatly you are the professional.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing for the end results.

[Paul B. 523]

Rob, I agree, my choice of wording was incorrect when I said:

"V-Seal 101 is a penetrating sealer and provides absolutely no protection for aggregate concrete." It does provide some protection, but it would not be the 1st (or 2nd) choice for exposed aggregate - be it 60/40 or other.

"...after consulting with 3 concrete contractors before bidding, on if this, this was the right sealer, and each one said absolutely, after reading the spec sheet on 3 choices, they hands down chose V-seal..."

So in essence, these 3 contractors are talking in theory, rather than having hands on experience with V-Seal 101 on aggregate.

"...also,I never once called Paul out on his post, but he has exagerated quite a few claims, but who hasnt..?..." "...So, I too could bash 25-35 people a week on this board a week on how I think what they are doing is wrong as Paul does..."

Go back and re-read all of your posts from the past 2 years and then lets talk exaggaration. UNTIL THEN, NO COMMENT ON THE EXAGGERATION! "...I hope this helps!"

To the 24-34 people that I bash every week, I extend my most sincerest appologies.

"...Because I am not ego driven,..."

Rob, how many times have you posted that your phone is ringing off the hook and you get $350 for every house you wash and $1.50-$2.00 per sq ft. for every deck you work, or how many hours you work in a week, or what new equipment you have or how much equipment you'll have next year? ...and I hope this helps!

Yes, I do tend to tick people off because I speak my mind. Personally, in some cases, I don't think I speak it enough!

Remember Rob, that not everything posted here is for your benefit ONLY. If you choose to take nothing away from my posts, than that is your choice. I can lead you to water but I won't hold your head under to make you drink it!

"Paul, if you spent half the time working, as you do reading and researching, you may get ahead someday, but I doubt it,..."

Get ahead of what Rob? Working 105 hours a week? I did that in my 20's, 30's and early 40's.

My portfolio does for me what working 105 hours a week will not achieve for you.

[Paul B. 523]

Rick,

For removal of acrylics, Prosoco has a good product called "Concrete Sealer Stripper". You need to rinse to remove emulsified coating, then wash. With this, you don't need to neutralize but rinse and wash.

Premium Stripper - strips epoxies, urethanes & acrylics – www.AldonChem.com

In addition, there is ChemMasters Seal Stripper 1205 which removes curing and sealing compounds, acrylic, latex or alkyd type paints and coatings.

Solvent based or citric based cleaners work best for acrylics and urethanes.

Some coatings can be removed with a Potassium or Sodium Hydroxide solution, in which case neutralizing is needed with a citric or oxalic acid solution.

If you wash with a Potassium or Sodium Hydroxide solution, neutralizing is important. You must also neutralize (with water or a base type product) after acid cleaning or etching if you are going to apply a coating.

There is not one place to go for complete concrete and brick/paver care, however there are a lot of good resources on these BB's for concrete care (not so much on Pavers) and I'll see if I can dig up information on other sources from my files.

Prosoco www.Prosoco.com is always a good source as they have products for cleaning, stripping and sealing concrete, brick and pavers.

[Paul B. 523]

Acrylic or film type sealers are normally the easiest to detect on a surface as they tend to be shiny (even after ware) or discolored. Penetrating sealers are the hardsest to spot, but not impossible.

You do have to walk the surface and look for coating regardless of what the customer has told you. I do it not only to look for coatings but also defects, as this is an opportunity for repair work and also to note on the estimate/contract for future reference if the need arises. Cracks, spalling and other defects help emphasize the need for a protective coating if only a cleaning is requested.

Like I said, with an acrylic finish, you look for shiny spots. Sometimes I will get on my hands and knees to run my hand over the concrete to feel the surface and get a closer look. If it's a sunny day, looking from opposite the sun's direction will help expose the coating. I carry water with me and test spots by pouring or spraying some on it. If it beads, it has a coating. If it soaks in quickly, then there should be no coating.

I use the water test to check for presence of a penetrating sealers.

Sometimes I even roll out the customers water hose to check for sealer.

I feel the same way when estimating deck refinishing. How does a contractor look when they start a job and then have to go to the customer and say:

I estimated this job to strip off an oil based stain but you have water based so now I have to increase the cost. If you, as a contractor did this to ME (as a homeowner) I would lose all confidence in you and would have to terminate our relationship. After all, I called you in as an expert to quote what it would take you to do the job right the first time and you should have done all the testing up front before you gave me an estimate. Since most homeowners do not know the cost implications of a water based coating over an oil based, whatever you may write in the contract (in regards to this) is mostly meaningless to the customer.

As a final thought on this:

Isn't the knowledge of what to look for along with the up-front testing, what separates the experienced/pros from all others that do this work?

Being good at selling jobs does not make your work good.

You need technical knowledge, hands on experience and reasoning capabilities (some call it common sense), not to mention the right tools and the best chemistry you can get your hands on.

[Rick G 14]

Thanks for the info Paul.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

WOW.

It has been our policy to not bash or post inflamatory remarks. I am not going to edit anyone's posts. I think each of you knows how you feel about what you have said and is equally capable of apologizing if you feel it is necessary.

However, I will say this.... we support our moderators. While we might have preferred the thread to have taken a different direction, I will go ahead and say there have been a number of people in the past at various times who have contacted me via phone, email, PM, or moderator forum regarding issues online and what appears to be inaccurate information. Members of this site come here to learn and grow and to find accurate information. We all try very hard here to post accurate information.

Rob-

When V-Seal is overapplied to aggragate it can leave a white milky residue that has a powdery look. If this is the case you need only wash it off. This is based upon our own experience with the same product, on the same substrate.

I have also written to Jay at V-Seal and enclosed a link to this thread, asking him to respond to all, so that he as the manufacturer will have a chance to discuss the proper use of his product. I can also schedule a chat on sealing various substrates if that would be of benefit. Jay has offered this in the past.

Best I stop here.

Beth

[Rick G 14]

I would participate in that chat Beth. Ill check back for details. Thanks, Rick G

[One Tough Pressure 580]

You know the rest, Paul should keep this in mind when he himself, and very few others respect what he says, Im sorry, But me and many others dont pay too much attention to him.. Or anyone else who thinks they know it all, and there is no other way...

I do not recall Paul saying that he knows it all. I would like to see a link to that as well. However he sure knows alot on our industry whether you like it or not. As for you not paying attention to him, sure whatever floats your boat, but who are these "many others dont pay too much attention to him"? I want to see some names. Talk is cheap and while you say whatever, I want some verification.

[Paul B. 523]

Beth,

Based on his comment, V-Seal was not applied to the surface.

Alan,

Thanks! Many folks disagree with my comments and that's OK.

If folks don't want to take any of my information and use it as a starting point of their research, that's OK also. My information is FREE and I ask nothing in return.

I like to speak my mind, and often it's percieved as arrogance.

OK, I'm arrogant - I like to think of it as being confident. Confident because I do spend time researching before I use a product. I researched V-Seal for a good period of time before I used it, and I have applied it FIRST HAND as I have many other products. I've spread my money around in this business to try a lot of different products personally. I get out often enough and work on many jobs throughout the year (I've got Cabot stain on my hands as we speak). I normally don't ask someone to do something or use a product if I have not tested or worked with it myself. Being over 50 has given me many years to do many things and I strive for variety and excellence.

OK, so much for my resume...

Now let me say this:

Penetrating sealers can and are used on exposed aggregate surfaces. V-Seal 101 is my GO TO penetrating sealer because of its quality and contractor friendly applicability. However, I do not believe that penetrating sealers provide the best overall protection for the exposed aggregate surface as the aggregate is normally not penetrated (unless it was acid etched or is of a porous type). My strong opinion based on experience and LOGIC.

My main issue, which I don’t want lost (behind CAN V-seal be used or not) was the fact that a GOOD contractor checks the surface close enough to know that there is a sealer already on it (especially if it is acrylic on 10-15% of the surface and you plan on applying a penetrating sealer). This is a critical step. I believe my reaction was to the fact that this contractor didn’t do a good job of inspecting the surface and did a CYA to pass the responsibility on to the customer. I DO agree that if a customer changes their mind, they should be charged for the change of direction.

Statements like this are obviously exaggerations:

“…anyway, since the exposed aggregate was a 60-40 mix, and after consulting with 3 concrete contractors before bidding, on if this, this was the right sealer, and each one said absolutely, after reading the spec sheet on 3 choices, they hands down chose V-seal,…” “…Yes, at least 3 concrete contarctors All cant be wrong, ? or does Paul know more than their 150 years in Family owned concrete business's...? They would have no reason to lye to me, they are friends,…”

I’m wondering how Rob can tell what the composition of the concrete is by visual observation and not see that there was an acrylic coating on it. How can you tell the composition of concrete by sight. Is the concrete:

1:2:3 - 50% aggregate (1 part cement: 2 parts sand and 3 parts aggregate),

1:2:4 (60% aggregate) or 1:3:5 (55% aggregate).

If Rob is so confident in the experience of any ONE of the concrete businesses, why would he need to go to THREE. Can a concrete contractor be wrong? SURE!

Can I be wrong? SURE! How does a concrete contractor know if a product is good if they have never used it in the past? How does 150 years of concrete experience help you in deciding about a product that has been around less than 15 years? Can reading the specs and flyers tell you how great a product is?

Is Aquapel by L&M a better product than V-Seal? They have been around for many, many years (many more years than V-Seal) and are experts in the concrete field.

I think you get the point.

[Paul B. 523]

If you are interested in learning more about exposed aggregate, I recommend this web site: www.exposedaggregateconcrete.com/menu.htm

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

The chat is scheduled for Tuesday, June 1st, 8pm EST. Join Jay from V-Seal for a special chat on concrete and various substrates and their particular requirements. Thanks go out to Jay for hosting this special event!

Beth & Rod

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I spoke to Jay today. He's logged in to check the thread to see if he needs to address anything. I'm sure he will post as time allows him to do so. I asked him specifically to review the content in the various posts for accuracy. Jay is an expert in this field and we feel certain that this should end any confusion there may be regarding the use of his products on various substrates.

Rob, please post a pic. It would help to assess the situation, and we could all learn from it.

Paul, your posts are always very informative, and packed with knowledge. The generous spirit in which you share what you have learned is to be commended. I believe I speak for many when I say don't stop sharing.

Sometimes the answer to a scenario is not clear, and the problem can be difficult to diagnose. The other day Paul asked us for opinions in a wood care thread, and a variety of responses was given by some very experienced folks. More than one answer could have been correct depending on the the circumstances, which were unknown. The point is, the answers were well thought out and intelligent and had valid points of discussion behind them. Everything is not always in black and white. Even the best contractor can not go out onto a job site and have the answer all the time, but if he or she knows what to do to get the answer, how to test, where to turn, it's easy to learn the answer and then you can proceed.

Beth & Rod

[V-SEAL 14]

Wow,

What a spirited group. Sorry I wasn't available sooner to help clarify some of these questions. Looking forward to speaking with all of you June 1st. In the mean time I copied a couple of questions I can address to tweak your interest until then.

Is Aquapel by L&M a better product than V-Seal ?

My Response...Do apples taste better than oranges..you know what I mean...

*Aquapel & Aquapel Plus is a water-based silane/siloxane treatment...this is totally different chemistry than V-SEAL...V-Seal is a hi-tech ( chemically reactive ) potasium chloride siliconate...there are specific applications for both and sometimes both for the same application...more June 1st.

They have been around for many, many years (many more years than V-Seal) and are experts in the concrete field. ( Speaking of Aquapel ) by the way, I like these guys...good group....

* Be careful here...do you know that for sure ? The developing chemist is Dr.Bruce Maier, according to the dinosaurs in the industry ( ACI, ICRI, PCA etc. , one of the worlds..Yes,the worlds leading authorities on surfactant technology ( surface sealers & coatings ) so be careful making statements like many more years than V-SEAL...I have to go on here, I can't help myself..remember ther are many sealers and coatings that have been around for years then updated with new technology and discoveries, but the base is basically the same. V-SEAL is was an old Gov't formula, enhanced and turned loose to the public sector as V-SEAL 101 & V-sEAL 102V4...

*Also is there a good source on the web to educate me on the care of concrete? This is a field I would like to add to my service, specifically brick pavers but I would like to be prepared for all types I may encounter. Thanks and keep up the good work here. I have learned a great deal from your past posts. Rick G

Yes, V-SEAL is a free consultings source for PW's, contractors, architects etc

more later...be kind to each other...allof you have something to offer

Jay @ V-SEAL

[Rick G 14]

"more later...be kind to each other...all of you have something to offer"

Thats the best advice I've heard yet. Thanks Jay. Ill see you in the chat room. Thanks Beth, for hosting it.