Which sealers do you use? How many partial pails do you have?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Hey folks,

How many types of sealers do you have in partial pails in your shop? Do you stick to one product, or apply many, or what?

This poll reflects a number of products. If I forget any, I apologize in advance. Please check off ALL that apply to what you have on hand.

Post in the thread anything you want to share about application or durability of these products.

Beth & Rod:cool: :cool:

[Chuck Richard 14]

I stick with Ready Seal and Olympic. I really like the Ready Seal light brown. I use Olympic when I can,t wait on the Ready Seal. I started out useing Wolmans, but found their products to be time consuming to apply and it just didn't last more than a year without beginning to look bad. I,m ready to hear the reviews on Wood Tux. Anyone applied it to aged wood yet?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Wood Tux should start shipping next week sometime. I'm sure Extreme Solutions tested it on aged wood.

I'll have to try our sample on our deck and then I can tell you about old weathered wood. We have one of those poor old decks...the couple that owned the house before us used to throw bleach on it religiously, then let it bake in the sun. It's a mess. We have been meaning to replace it for a couple of years.

Beth

[Paul B. 523]

As with other items, I offer a variety. Probably too many choices, so I will most likely reduce by one this year.

Up to now the selection has been Cabots, Wolman F&P and Cuprinol. Used Penofin from time to time at customer's request. It's not readily available in my market at this time, otherwise I would push it more even at the premium prices. This year I picked up TWP - got a good price from the only distributor in town. He's giving it to me for $79.95 per 5 gallon pail.

I was ready to try ReadySeal this year, in fact I have a sample kit from Tracy sitting in the shop, but the coverage rate and shipping has made me shy away for the time being. At 75-100 sq ft per gallon the only way it will compete with TWP is if I need damp application one-day type sealer. So far that has not been an issue since deckwork is not the majority of our work. TWP will be the main sealer and I will use it to also leverage a price on Cuprinol.

[reed 500]

Paul,

The coverages of readyseal will vary. If old wood and spraying, I would agree, 75 sf per gallon, but if rolled or brushed, 80 to 90 is more likely to happen.

On new cedar, rolled, pad, or brush you can get in excess of 150sf per gallon. The coverage really is dependent on the woods age.

Just so you know about TWP, it is made here in St Louis and in Oklahoma, the formula was changed last year due to a EPA requirement.

Try the RS sample kit, also get a sample kit from Beth on the woodtux, I am thinking the woodtux will be great on older wood. Beth, what ya think? did you try it on older wood yet?

Reed

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Personally, I don't like anything on old wood, (I mean wood with grand canyon cracks and so gray it looks like charcoal ash since they never cared for it) but that's just me. To me, old wood always looks like old wood. I hate splintered boards with wide cracks. But I will say the Wood Tux has a rich color that holds up well on old wood. Just wish people spend to get the wood sanded smooth, except in some cases you really need to fip boards or take it down a gooooood ways.

We did a deck that was about 10 years recently, was a Harry Homeowner specail, multi layer multi color multi product strip job. Sealed it in Western Cedar Wood Tux. Looked great. It's in another thread.

Beth

[Paul B. 523]

Reed,

Are you saying that the TWP quality is lower than before the change?

I would love to try Wood Tux but to be honest, I struggle with the freight charges, (not specific to The GrimeScene but in general) they tend to run from 25-50% of the product cost PLUS I still have to pay Ohio sales tax to the governor at the end of the year. Also I don't want to warehouse any more products which would force me to sell a specific color (as some offer free shipping when you buy 25 gallons or more).

I challanged one of my suppliers several weeks ago to find a lower cost shipping option (their shipping cost is at 50% of product cost), but he has not responded yet. Good chance he will not get a re-order, just by the lack of response. It's a shame because he's been real helpful and a nice person. I sure hope he calls me even if he can't find another option (I wish sales people would listen a bit closer!) Side-tracked there for a moment.

I'm getting a mix of customer preferences this year: TWP, F&P, Penofin, Cuprinol and Cabot. I would say that the cutomer that has done the research, they have their minds made up and you can not get them to budge. The ones without research could care less, as long as the cost fits in their budget and the deck looks good.

I will test Ready Seal this year on a family member or friend (they never pay, so they get the experimental projects). The one product that would fill my gap would be a damp type application sealer (Ready Seal or Wood Tux). Whatever direction I go, I will reduce my selection by 2 to offer no more than 4 choices. The Cabot is a keeper for the solids.

What can I say? It's a customer's market. I'm looking to pick up a large deck job shortly. The man owns a beer, wine and booze store. He owns the house that our infamous prosecutor owned while hounding Larry Flynt. The prosecutor had money so it was well taken care of. The new owner just had a friend re-finish it last year and it's failing already - has no idea what product or process was used. I buy my imports from him so maybe I can work out a trade - a years supply of Pilsner Urquell or Beck's dark would be a fair barter for me.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Question for you Paul, if I may kind Blues Meister... :)

How much sealer do you go through? How far out are you booked? Do you have decks as a minor part of your work or a major part? We just got in 34, 5ers, then another 9. We'll burn through it in two weeks.

We sell the job, the customer picks the product and color, and we order in what we need for two weeks of work, based upon the square footage. We allow ourselves a little extra room. Rod figures out what we need, I get it in. This way we are not selling what is on hand, merely applying what has been preselected.

Don't know if this helps or not. We also studied local buying habits to determine the most popular colors. We know our repeat customers will want the same thing, and we contact them in January/Feb to get them lined up and begin the process of collecting this data.

Hope this helps....

For us, we are selling:

Wood Tux (mainly)

Sikkens Cetol Dek

Cabot

Menwood

Wolman F&P and Ready Seal (on a few quotes from last season who held off due to drought)

Beth

[Paul B. 523]

Beth, you may ask all the questions you want, ...may not get a lot of straight answers...:D

This is my second response and I hate repeating myself (laptops are great but a pain in the hands). Too much coffee already since 5 am - sorry another long post coming (everyone else left - no one else is willing to listen - you are my captive audience for the next few)!

New Construction has been the bread and butter in the past and it's booked solid this year (hard winter and the war over).

My main goal was to target full-day or multi-day projects in the same area as this reduces the overhead costs and non-productive time. Having said that, I'm way off course right now with unexpected, but pleasant results at present - tack and pull- in the jib.

I did a half-hearted marketing campaign last year for deck, concrete and house washing and everything looked very promising.

I was targeting to spend 3 days a week working on Genesis sales and marketing/estimating and 2 days on the masonry sales and estimating (the masonry estimating is a bit more time consuming and detailed). I am working 7 days a week. I wanted part time work, I like gardening, traveling, playing music and watching others work too much to be tied down like this. I'm too tired to even blow the harp. I'll be napping thru the bluesfest at the end of May. The water hauling business boomed during the draught and had to go. No wonder the better half wants to go work for someone else - she thinks I make everyone work too hard. Personally I think they (especially her 93 year old mom and my 75 year old mom) take too many breaks.:D :D :D The kids don't visit because they're afraid I'll put them to work for their meals (free-loaders). The cats are getting way too fat - although Katie is a mouse/mole/rabbit killer - she likes to bite their heads off.

My partner is booked solid on the masonry business 4 crews of 7-8 til the end of July and several small 2-3 person crews. We are subcontracting with at least 2 other crews. A VP and a GM of two large builders are literally begging not to finish and move out of a sub-division without calling them directly first (we do repairs that no one else will touch because they think it's too small - but we are netting over $1K per day on a 2-3 man crew. The construction business backed up also from this winter. You've heard the expression feast or famine? This is the up cycle of the sinewave!

Make up for some of the market losses!

My target for this year was going to be residential restoration and the calls are surprisingly numerous already - the bid acceptance is also in the 80-85% range and my numbers are not low. There are not many folks in my area that are doing this type of work.

Also increased my efforts on residential siding cleaning with the focus on 2 story homes. There again, the response has been tremendous - it seems like there are not a lot of folks addressing this area either. I just booked several homes in a sub-division yesterday as a result of work for the retired mayor of a small close by area. His sub-division has a lot of Cape Cod style homes that only the homeowners are trying to clean. He has given me close to 20 leads that he will be my reference on. (You know how small towns are - you can live or die by one mouth.) I was going to pass on his work initially because it is a bit far, especially now that we can be a bit more picky, but I'm glad I slept on it over night. Same as the deck work for the doctor I posted the other day - I slept on it overnight and decided to bid it because you just never know. - I have to praise GOD in allowing me to take good care of my family and friends.

I'm actually increasing the workload much faster then I intended. I wanted to develop each sector skill before increasing the marketing - I will have to apply the brakes already. As I've typed here, I've received 3 calls for estimates. This spring is crazy!! I hope it's the same for you and the rest of the folks out there!!!!

The concrete sealing is the weakest seller at this point. Give it another winter like the last one and that will come around also.

It's kind of nice when things cycle out of harmony.

But I degress - I can't tell you off the top of my head (I keep good records but I would need to do a bit of accounting on how much we use, as all of our suppliers are very very close by and even when they are out, I can have it here that afternoon or the next morning from another part of town or another city near. Any unopened / unused gets returned on the next swing-by or delivery. I like to stop in and sell work to their customers. I also like the Wolman points/perks. The paperwork between the supplier and workordes get balanced in the middle of each month. The workorders get checked 2 days before each job and all special materials are binned. To answer more specifically deck work is a small portion of our work but receives the highest priority in execution due to the weather factor. We did under 100 decks last year if I remember but a percentage was cleaning only. I promised myself I was NOT getting into warehousing and my shop is almost half full of cleaning STUFF.

I take small steps - my partner in masonry takes the leaps.

He throws money at things and I make the business grow with minimum debt.

So what was your question?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

ROTFLMAO...... :D

What question?

Beth

p.s. so, go bake a key lime pie ;)

[Paul B. 523]

I was thinking of the same thing... Do you have ESPN or what?I've got my order in for (2) Key Lime pies for a BD coming up (two are just as easy to bake as one and between the cats and I, we like to lick the bowls clean (I got to let them go first though cause they don't like to eat after me). I also get to lick the electric mixer but the last time I forgot to unplug it - talk about a close call.

Anyway a BD is about the only time I can get her to fix it for me. She always says my favorite is Coconut cream. Last BD she fixed me Coconut Cream after I requested Key Lime for nearly a month. I had to write it on my forehead with a marker "My favorite is Key Lime Pie." What does she know anyway. My favorite is Key Lime, but anything with fruit or alcohol in it is OK by me!

Heck, you should taste her grape pie. She hates grape season. Man, it's fun watching the girls stomp those grapes (I won't eat that stuff though, that goes to the friends and family). I eat the ones that are hand sqeezed - boiling or no boiling.

[reed 500]

Paul,

I can't really say if the TWP is a lesser product than before. I can say I am seeing alot more failures of the product. But the problem may be in the prep and application. Russ and I talked about it at length this past winter and we did agree the longevity isn't what we saw a few years back.

In new construction WoodTux and ReadySeal would be an excellent choice. Beth did a wet/moist wood application of WoodTux and it worked Rod/Beth are evaluating it at present. Beth, can you give us an update on it? ReadySeal on the other hand is absolutely a dry wood application. But on new construction it is awesome, so is the WoodTux.

The jobs I get I advise the customer what I think is best for their deck or fence. I base this advise on age of the cedar and it's exposure to the elements. Winters here see alot of ice and spring brings in tremendous hail storms. I have at least 20 bids out right now on hail damage alone. ReadySeal has shown me that with hail damage the surface is pock marked but the RS IN the wood is still in good shape, so only a light cleaning and light seal is required. With the percarb cleaner, efc38 and others, the pock marks are all almost removed. Some light sanding may be needed on the hand rails. When I give a bid I also give a brochure for ReadySeal, I now have some for woodtux and will be giving those out for the woodtux bids. Most customers want a certain look not necessarily a certain product. If they are requesting TWP or CWF it is because a "buddy" said so. Not so much as an educated preference. I will not apply CWF, it is a pain in the you know what to apply and to maintain. The upside to RS and I think WoodTux is it's ease in maintaining.

I am sure shipping can be reduced if you order in somewhat a bulk order.

Just some thoughts,

Reed

[Paul B. 523]

Reed,

Thanks for sharing your experience and good info. I appreciate it and respect it very much.

[Aplus 525]

Paul,

It is true that the TWP formula was changed last year. I had been in contact with the folks there several times, and had a rep out, when one of the cedar decks I stained prematurely faded.

They would only tell me that they had to make a change to the solids content, to satisfy EPA requirements.

I can tell you for 100% certain....it is not as good as it used to be. I've used 100's of gallons, and can tell differences.

I will not say anymore in a public forum, but I would discuss it with you via email or phone.

apluspowerwashing@comcast.net

(734)479-1148

[Paul B. 523]

Tony,

Sent you an e-mail.

Appreciate all input and info.

Ready Seal claims 85-90% solids content (by weight)

TWP's (2003 info) claims 30% solids their previous claim was 34%-42%.

Wolman F&P claims 68% solids content (by weight).

Cabot 1400 series Solid Decking Stains claim 34-44% solids (by weight)

Cuprinol claims 18-20% solids (by weight)

What is solid content of Wood Tux?

Quality 1st, ...then price. That rule is overridden only if quality difference is minor and price difference is significant.

[Paul B. 523]

One thing that is curious about Ready Seal:

They didn't (don't) offer color charts or the fan type wood color sampler (like TWP or SuperDeck). Or has that been changed?

I was going to make up a sampler package on photo paper from the color selector on their web site but their quality has a lot of room for improvement. (I'm aware of all the hazards of color variations but I like to have a basis or point to start from.)

I was told I could have samples to make my own.

I have product samples, but it's hard to carry the shadowbox fence to the customers house.

Like I said, I'm only an average sales person - I look for all the visual aids / help I can get (I believe a piture tells a thousand words). I have color charts for all the stains I present to the customer. Is anyone willing to share good quality photos of RS in action for my customer presentation? A couple in each color would make for a good start. I will promise not to claim it as Genesis work. (I'm trying to be creative so I had to ask.)

I wish the manufacturers and these distributors would try to help make the contractor's life a bit easier. Where are the old days when they would literally trip over you to help? When I find a good service oriented distributor I try to reward them as they are few and far between (sorry to say that). This is a general statement and is not intended to reflect on any specific distributor.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

The solid content for Wood Tux is over 80% as I understand it. :)

Beth

[Paul B. 523]

Thanks!

[James 625]

The only way to get a true gage of color with penitrating oils is to make your own. I take piece's of every kind of wood and do to it what I will do to their deck. I have different type's of wood in my aging laboratory( side of house ) getting ready for my spring sample's.

[James 625]

I use read seal and i make my own semi's. i also use ready seal clear as a first step in the preservation of older decks then a semi on top of that. There is a big difference between all these product. You have penitrating oils, film formers and hardeners. A subject for after the new year !!! I do not use any product that I would have to strip off .

[Aaron Ochsner 14]

Rymar!

Cheers,

:yoda:

[Tim McCulla 14]

Paul B.,

What does solids content tell you? I've used all the products that you listed the percentanges of solids. As a contractor applying the material, what type of insight to quality does that give you? In my mind I've rated all the products in that you listed and it in no way carolates to the "solids content".

Not being a wise guy - I really want to know.

[Paul B. 523]

Solids are defined as anything remaining in the product after curing.

Non-Solids are defined as anything that evaporates during the curing process.

Higher solid content by itself is not necessarily an indication of a better product.

In general, sealers consist of Binders, Fillers, Thickeners and Additives, etc.

Generally:

Fillers are ALMOST always 100% solids.

Thickeners can vary from 10% to 100% solids.

Additives can vary from 0-100% solids.

Binders can vary from 25% to 70% solids.

Many factors determine the quality of sealers and no single characteristic is a determining factor of the performance of the product, but rather the proper balance and quality of the components.

[Henry B. 4]

Wow, I'm suprised that so many people are using wolman. I'm not kicking the product or anything but I personally don't like it that much. It seems to fade to orangish tones after a while. I heard cabot was good also and of course I love ready seal so I'm not suprised its in the top three.

[James 625]

Wolmans has a good marketing program and it is easier to get , same with cabot. Starting in a week every paint store and hardware store in CT. will have a CABOT flag flying on them. Using wolmans is like throwing minerial spirits with a color on wood.

[CompletelyClean 14]

I use read seal and i make my own semi's. i also use ready seal clear as a first step in the preservation of older decks then a semi on top of that. There is a big difference between all these product. You have penitrating oils, film formers and hardeners. A subject for after the new year !!! I do not use any product that I would have to strip off .

Interesting! D.J. (Diamond Jim), would this method, using 1 coat of RS clear adthen a 2nd coat of RS Natural Cedar be recommended for a 6 year old cedar deck that has never been treated?