Need Clarification...Please Help

[sturgisjr 14]

I am working on a bid for a job I went to this morning. He has a cedar deck that was sealed with woodscapes cedar tone transparent oil-based from sherwin williams and has legal action pending against the previous contractor because peeling has occurred after 2 years of application. It was guaranteed for 3 years. The sealer before woodscapes was CWF and a contractor stripped it off and sealed with woodscapes. I will be stripping with HD-80 and still questionable on a sealer.

He has another section of a deck that is all pressure treated and sealed with the same product or was it cuprinol? Dont remember and says it looks okay when its dry (went there when it was wet). He wants this part of the deck cleaned only and not sealed...it has mildew. I offered a strip and seal but I think he wants to spend money that fits his budget. It only would have been $500 more to do a strip and seal.

He also has a front deck that was newly built last year... pressure treated, no sealer present and wants it cleaned and sealed.

Now....

1) why did the sealer peel off the cedar deck? What do you think contributed to it? I want to prevent this kind of problem...I thought that oil based transparent stains didnt peel because it penetrates into the wood, unless the prep was done poorly by previous contractor?

2) I was going to use EFC-38 on the pressure treated deck since he wanted a clean only. It has a sealer like I mentioned and has no need for me to seal it after cleaning. I warned that some of the finish will come off. Is that right? EFC-38 can take some of the finish off? What do you use to do a clean only without removing any finish. I thought of using citralic brightener but will that remove mildew?

3) The newly built deck... I can just use citralic before staining? It is just new wood that has never been stained.

I plan on offering a maintanence program and I want to know which products will serve as a clean only. Im a little confused on when or when not to use EFC-38 and a Brightener. I know to use Brightener after HD-80 but can it be used alone?

The cedar deck is at ground level and there are plants all around it that cannot be moved. I was thinking of covering with tarp? The plants are right at the deck and some actually grown on purpose atop the deck. Im just concerned because HD-80 will be used.

Trying to get clarification and more confidence in the products I offer. Please do help me get this straight.

One other thing.. how do you prevent wood chips (if any) from the pressure washing stage from getting into the pool.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Do not let your customers drive you.

If you think the job needs a strip and seal, offer a strip and seal or walk.

You are the professional. The customer needs to trust your diagnosis, prognosis and products. If you think your customer is better qualified to tell you what products to use, then you are in trouble.

You have already stated that this man is litigious.

has legal action pending against the previous contractor because peeling has occurred after 2 years of application.

If you try to clean the mildew off the other section of deck you will very likely leave the existing finish in a less than desirable condition. If the sealer has started to degrade it will come off easier than the mildew. He will likely consider this your fault and expect you to pay for the replacement sealer. Then you will have to fix it to his satisfaction or face legal action. Essentially he gets his $500.00 of work for free.

Remember, there is more work than workers. You can choose your customers just as easily as they choose their contractor.

Now to your questions. . .

1) If the product forms a film that prohibits sufficient vapor transmission then it is susceptible to cracking and peeling. Cracking and peeling are caused by a combination of expansion and contraction of the wood as well as pressure caused by warming vapors trying to escape through the film barrier. Or the prep was done poorly by the last contractor.

2) If you use EFC-38 it will likely remove all of the finish. EFC-38 is not like other percarbonates. It was designed to strip semitransparent sealers like TWP and cuprinol. You will often see it mentioned with other percarbonate products because it is safe for use around pets and plants and you don't have to mask like you do with harsher products.

If the finish that is on the wood is two years old, I do not know of a way to remove the mildew without causing substantial loss of the finish. Stick to your guns and make them strip and refinish, or go find a job where you have less chance of getting sued.

3) You should be all right with that. If you notice mill-glaze you might throw a little HD-80 on it at about half strength for 5 to 10 min.

Brightener can be used alone when appropriate. . .rinse well.

When we are doing maintenance cleaning of a 1 year old finish we use EFC-38 at 2 to 4 oz per gallon. (about 3 oz in a measuring cup)

Protect the plants if you are using HD-80. A tarp will work, but be mindful of the heat. If it is hot enough you run the risk of steam cooking the vegetation.

Warn the customer that there is a chance that they will have to drain and refill the pool clean filters etc. If they have a cover for the pool that would be your best bet. Working near pools can be tough.

Best of Luck

Russell Cissell

[James 625]

Unless you know your product s say away from this guy

[svp07 14]

What happens to brick if HD-80 gets on it?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Hd-80 will clean it, but nothing more. Acid affects the mortar joints and brick more than a caustic will.

A good guess as to why the sealer failed on an a cedar deck is 1 of 2 things...

He either used bleach and a film formed causing the situation or...

He didnt neutralize well or rinse the neutralizer completely.

Before you go anywhere with this customer, help him understand that YOU do not make the product and cannot be held liable for the product should it fail before its time and to take it to the manufacturers level where it should be. If you followed the label dierections in preparation and the product failed, blame the product not the person applying it.

Another hint I may add is avoid using heavy film forming finishes on cedar. The wood is too soft to hold onto them for very long and will eventually fail. Just the weight of a person walking on the deck is enough to cause the wood fibers to flex under the finish. Also, if the deck is 2' or lower to the ground, the moisture conditions are too high for a heavy film forming product to endure.

Use an oil based sealer on cedar and walk away from this customer if you dont feel confident enough to make sure you wont become his next suit.

Rod~

[sturgisjr 14]

percarbonates...these clean mildew without removing any finish? This is what you would use to do a yearly maintanence that consists of a light wash?

What are percarbonates? Is that like Oxygen bleach? Where can I find it and what brand?

When applying this, use the pressure washer to rinse? Will the pressure washer remove any finish even while using a percarbonate?

[Joe Chadwick 14]

Russell, when you say warn customers of possible pool draining, filter removal, etc. when using HD-80, when would I know if that had to be done? How much rinse water entering a pool is too much? thanks Joe

[sturgisjr 14]

Please get back to me on what percarbonates to use. I was under the impression that EFC-38 was a good percarbonate but that it also acts as a mild stripper. What percarbonates do I use that does not act as a stripper? I am looking for the right product to use for my maintanence program. This is my first year in business and after just a few weeks, it has been successful. Because this is pretty new, maintanence wont start until next year or later. Just want to prepare ahead of time with information.

Can Citralic Brightener be use in place of a percarbonate (whatever that is) for a light wash maintanence without stripping off a sealer? If so, does the Citralic remove mildew like a percarbonate would? Also, you would use a very low pressure as to not remove any finish.. I know that the pressure can remove a little bit and I want to know just the right amount of pressure you would use for the light cleaning.

Thanks

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

You can use EFC in a weak concentration if you don't want it to strip... 3-4 oz per gallon.

Beth

[Rick G 14]

I would walk away from this job so fast I would make a sonic boom. Read the wrighting on the wall. Choose your customers carefully. Sorry I didnt contribute more to this post but I think you should pass.

[sturgisjr 14]

Thank you all for your responses. I have gained confidence through your responses and wanted to let you all know that I decided to go with the job. The cedar deck will be stripped off of the sealer which is cuprinol so HD-80 will be used. Warm Honey Gold will be applied. The PRessure Treated Deck (also with a cuprinol sealer applied 2 years ago and has a bad case of mildew on it)...we had the homeowners sign and initial on the invoice/contract that they denied our offer for a strip and seal and that they are aware that there is no guarantee that the sealer will still be present after cleaning. We sat down with them for more than 2 hours to cover all bases. They were extremely impressed with our concerns for their deck and really appreciated that. About the pressure treated deck up front, it has been stained with cuprinol only on the spindles and the railings and they had leftover stain for us to use on their deck floor that has not been applied yet because the deck was too wet last year when it was newly built. There is no grey present and will clean with a brightener only. We strongly advised against using their leftover stain but they wanted it to match what was already on the spindles and railings. Again, they realize that we are not responsible for the sealer failing if it ever does.

I think they are trying to save money during this stage and was focusing on the more important parts (to them anyway).

If there is something I am missing here or if there is anything you want to add.. negative or positive...please do so.

This is a great board and I hope to someday be able to contribute in some way.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Sturgisjr

Cuprinol will come off just fine. The key is patience when you let the HD dwell. Brighten with Citralic. Once back to bare wood, go back when it's dry and hit the nail pops (if not screwed down) and sand the hand rail tops lightly and any bench seats. Defuzz the deck and put up your plastic, and put down tarps. Then seal.

Beth

[Paul B. 523]

The stripping action of EFC-38 comes from the TSP content.

On stained surfaces, mold and mildew can be removed with a bleach/water (liquid pool shock or household chlorine) mix without stripping the finish.

Brightener will not clean the wood surface so it's use alone will not get you the proper prep needed to apply a film forming stain. If you do not clean it first, you will trap dirt under the finish.

[sturgisjr 14]

Yeah, I went to do the job today on the pressure treated deck... I started out using EFC-38 at 2 oz a gallon and found that it was stripping off the cuprinol that was applied 2 years ago. I quickly decided that this was not the way to go.... I did not have any bleach with me so tried just using water alone to see what would happen. Water alone, to my surprise, took off all the mildew and black film and I was using low pressure. The stain was not touched at all. Is this good? Should I have used bleach anyway? The customer seemed very satisfied that the deck looked much cleaner and brighter without all the black film and mildew, but I want to make sure I was not promoting any problems by not using bleach. Besides, I am leery about using bleach because of the many opinions with all you professionals who do and do not use bleach.

Also, I did the Cedar deck and is my first cedar deck I've done. I used low pressure and full strength HD-80 that dwelled for 45 minutes. It took off most of the stain and furred up a little bit. I neutralized. There are some stains leftover but I am thinking that while I remove the fuzzies, that I can remove the leftover stain with no problem? Despite the leftover stains and fuzzies, customer seemed satisfied and did not realize that we could actually get it to the new wood look.

That reminds me, when we offered a strip and seal on the pressure treated deck, they were hesistant to go along with it because they said everytime they do that, the deck gets darker. (thus the reason for a clean only) I was thinking maybe because it never was prepped correctly? Maybe now that they saw our result from stripping the cedar deck, they will call us again and ask us to go ahead with the strip and seal of their PT deck. Let's see. Maybe next summer.

[Paul B. 523]

There should be no concern using bleach on stained surfaces to remove mold and mildew. Water will only remove the newest layer and will actually promote the regrowth. You most likely removed more mold & mildew with pressure than water.

I had the similar situations with EFC-38 - even with low concentrations it would strip stain off adjacent cedar siding or even 1 year old stain (granted that older stains will strip much easier). If in doubt, we use percarb without TSP.