PWNA/UAMCC Press Release

[Guy B 70]

Let me answer some questions:

First there is a very important Trade Show Next Week for Storm Water Regulator, it is at www.stormCon.com . Normally there is over 2,000 regulators present, do not know about this year because of the shortage of money in many jurisdictions. I have spoken several times at this event, normally I have over 100 attendees, mostly regulators but I had Wal-Mart twice.

I did not have the time for all of the proper protocol that I should have done because of a shortage of time caused in the delay in getting approval from PWNA and ***** and getting the CD/DVD produced. I have talked to both Presidents about this, and will not happen in the future. I moved ahead because of the importance of StormCom.

Second, the EPA’s Model Ordinance has been in effect since January 2, 1996 which has produced one of the lowest pollutants in the MS4 in the Nation at almost no cost to the Municipalities and the Contractors. It is Reasonable, Rational, and Logical; it makes sense. If you will study it you will see that all it requires is for the contractor to Pre-Clean and Filter his waste water. Filtration can be with an oil absorbent boom and a window screen around the bottom of a sump pump which directs the water to sanitary sewer. Cost less than $200.00. In the Model Work Shop you are shown how to comply with a child’s swimming pool for a drain blocker, a sump from Home Depot, and an oil absorbent boom. Does not look very professional, but it works and is legal! The contractor can decide what technology he wants to use.

About my being a dealer, if you look at my work for the past 20 years you will see that is does not push high dollar sales of unnecessary equipment. My philosophy has been that the easier it is to comply, the higher level of compliance there will be, which in turn will give more contractors the opportunity to save the environment. Several contractors who have pushed environmental regulations after they have purchased expensive equipment want the rules to be very difficult in order to limit competition. It takes everyone involved to develop good regulations: Regulators, Manufacturers, Dealers, Contractors, and End Users (your customers). You cannot separate one from the other; it takes everyone involved to produce a good answer.

My background: I have trained more regulators and contractors than anyone else in the nation. I know what works and what does not; have been asked to speak many times at regulatory meetings and events. I did this in order to save my business, I was forced into it. On the advice of regulators I started PWNA, again to save my business. Because of the work I did, almost every regulation today for Cosmetic Cleaning includes verbiage, and terms that I developed. I know a lot of Regulators on a personal basis.

I presented to EPA Region 6 in 2008 the fact that Houston’s BMPs were not working; Houston was represented at the event. At the time I did not know why: but as time passed it was obvious that the reason was that cleaning was not being done as contractors left Houston because of the threat of excessive fines. There is a lot of behind the scene correspondence that will be released later.

It is one thing to criticize, but you need to make specific suggestions for changes, corrections, or additions. The main purpose of the Model Ordinance, Model BMPs, and Model Workshop is so that local contractors can take the material and adjust it to their local situation. This has already been tested by Eric Flynn in Galveston County. Eric took the BMPs and modified them to fit his situation with very positive results. Eric was suppose to talk for 15 minutes, his information was so very informative that it lasted almost 1 ½ hours. I received several very positive comments from the regulators he spoke to. I will let Eric speak for himself on the details. Eric said that he did not have the time to develop the program, but did have the time to modify it slightly and make the presentation!

I know the changes that Eric made and I agree with them. They will probably be incorporated into the BMPs at the next printing which will have proper approval for. You have all properly beat me over the head with that one.

Mr. Hinderliter, your knowledge and expertise is without question, but if you would indulge me I have some questions.

Why is it so important to "Shop" this BMP around? When I was told (Personally) by the ex-ED of the PWNA said they wouldn't. You're doing this and you know you are. What is the reason for this?

Why are Pressure Washers "Pigeon Holed" as "Polluters" in the eyes of the Regulators you speak to and know on a personal level? Why were they Grouped together with Major Environmental Criminals that do things that we as Contractors, not to mention Human Beings would never do?

Why did it take a small group of Contractors (that had no where near your knowledge, influence or expertise) to point out the Major Flaws and mistakes in they're targeting Pressure Washers in Houston? Why didn't Mr. Clark recognize the efforts of these Contractors in his PWNA announcement about the last Houston meeting?

Why is what we do still categorized as "Cosmetic Cleaning"? To me (And A Lot Of Others) this is a derogatory description of the service we provide. This term degrades the service, and Industry I represent.

Why disallow hot water? Emulsification also happens (To a smaller degree) even in cold water washing?

I have immense respect for you Robert, and my opinions in this matter are not swayed by outside personalities. What you're saying, and what you're doing seem to be totally opposite.

[Guy B 70]

This is a pretty simple process really. All you have to do is follow the history. Here's how it goes:

1) Make rules and incite the municipalities to make rules where there are no rules.

2) Offer certification classes to teach those rules.

3) Convince the municipalities that contractors without certifications shouldn't be allowed to work.

4) Sit back and collect all the training fees for certifying contractors so they can work.

For reference please research "kitchen exhaust cleaning" - or "PWNA" or "Delco".

If you think kec guys are rolling in the dough now that all the regulations are in place then by all means support the BMP's and more power to you. If the kec industry isn't booming then maybe that approach didn't work.

You guys decide.

Kinda looks that way doesn't it Tony. That might answer a lot of questions. Just saying.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Guy B

[Celeste 341]

Mr. Hinderliter, your knowledge and expertise is without question, but if you would indulge me I have some questions.

Why is it so important to "Shop" this BMP around? When I was told (Personally) by the ex-ED of the PWNA said they wouldn't. You're doing this and you know you are. What is the reason for this?

Why are Pressure Washers "Pigeon Holed" as "Polluters" in the eyes of the Regulators you speak to and know on a personal level? Why were they Grouped together with Major Environmental Criminals that do things that we as Contractors, not to mention Human Beings would never do?

Why did it take a small group of Contractors (that had no where near your knowledge, influence or expertise) to point out the Major Flaws and mistakes in they're targeting Pressure Washers in Houston? Why didn't Mr. Clark recognize the efforts of these Contractors in his PWNA announcement about the last Houston meeting?

Why is what we do still categorized as "Cosmetic Cleaning"? To me (And A Lot Of Others) this is a derogatory description of the service we provide. This term degrades the service, and Industry I represent.

Why disallow hot water? Emulsification also happens (To a smaller degree) even in cold water washing?

I have immense respect for you Robert, and my opinions in this matter are not swayed by outside personalities. What you're saying, and what you're doing seem to be totally opposite.

+10........Robert, you know me and my position on things that directly affect the contractor. I am right beside Guy in his questions. We have blindly followed for years.....but our eyes are opening - please explain your position(s) to the CONTRACTOR - as a person, an educator, not from the sales position you held for years.

Celeste

[offduty 25]

Quote from the Hilborn guy when he ran the Pwna a few months ago before his disgraceful exit.

Let me tell you what the BMPs are not (based on some of the points I read on the bulletin boards):

· The PWNA is not going to bring, or shop, the BMPs to municipalities, city

leaders or roll them out across the country. That was never mentioned as our

plan and I don't know where that came from. Second, we don't have the

money or resources for such an undertaking.

· These BMPs aren't designed to be the answer for every power washer, in every

part of the country, for every possible cleaning situation or challenge. They are

a guide. They are a resource to develop BMPs specific to your operation.

· They will not solve the Houston problem

I guess the Pwna has changed their mind on shopping the bmp's.

[PWNA HQ 14]

Robert asked me to let everyone know that he is in the Grand Canyon and has been unable to get service. He will respond to the posts as soon as he's able.

[offduty 25]

This is the contact info for the convention that RH is referring to. Maybe some would like to let them know that the info presented is not done with the approval of org members.

Steve Di Giorgi

StormCon Director

Phone: (805) 682-1300 x129 or Fax: (805) 682-0200

stevedg@forester.net.

[Robert Hinderliter 64]

To answer some more questions:

Most of the questions are because people have not read or studied the Model Ordinance, Model BMPs, or Model Workshop which has been made available to everyone. Eric Flynn had no problem after studying the material in making a presentation to Galveston County, which was very well accepted with a lot of information that they needed.

I am going to answer questions that you may have after studying the material that are not obvious.

Why do the municipalities need this information: NPDES Phase I and Phase II MS4 Permits require the municipalities to develop and implement Cosmetic Cleaning BMPs with measureable goals. For the Cosmetic Cleaning Industry these parameters are: Fats, Oils, Greases (FOG), and Detergents in the MS4s. Phase II Permits are in 5-year plans, this issue has to be addresses in the second 5-year plan if it was not addressed in the first 5-year plan. There was some lenience when the 5-years plans started, most municipalities’ are in their second 5-year plan. Galveston County is in their first 5-year plan in year 4, which called for these BMPs before the end of August, 2011.

These 5-year plans are not a cookie cuter, which is they all do not have to be the same. The municipalities have to submit their plans for EPA approval, which include measureable goals for reporting purposes. Each municipality can do the necessary items in the order and style that comply with their particular situation. Galveston County chose the first 5-year plan year Number 4 to address our industry. This is addresses in most 5-year plans in the second 5-year plan. This means that is going to be like pop-corn going off all over the county for the next 5 to 10 years.

Why consult a National Non-profit Trade Association: I do have any documentation on this but I have been told many times by regulators that they could take comment from me as a representative of a National Non-Profit Trade Association but could not accept any comments from me for changes as a private business owner. In over 20 years there has never been an exception. Galveston County reached out to the two National Non-Profit Trade Associations for advice, and when Eric made his presentation it was as a representative of *****. After Eric studied the material he asked if he could change it to fit Galveston County needs. I informed Eric that was the purpose of the Model BMPs, as there was too much material for one person to develop on their own. If a local member of either ***** or PWNA was not available and willing to make the presentation than I would have had to go.

Because of this protocol it part of National Non-Profit Trade Association responsibility to fulfill this need. This was explained to me by an EPA Regulator who mentored me about the political requirements of how regulations were developed. As a result this training from an EPA Regulator PWNA was born after CEMA refused to admit Contract Cleaners into their membership.

NPDES Requirements, Public Outreach and Education: Part of the NPDES Permit Requirements is for Public Outreach and Education; this means when ever a municipality furnishes a speaker or consultant at any function or personal advice they are filling part of their NPDES Requirements. The purpose of this is not to educate the speaker, but to educate the audience in their BMPs and how they interpret the CWA. This is not a “Public Comment Period”.

The Model BMPs do not promote Sales of Expensive Equipment: In most cases the Model BMPs can be complied with for less that $200.00 if the Contract Cleaner chooses. There are provisions for complete reclaim and remediation systems if the contract cleaner chooses for competitive reasons. Statements otherwise are made by individuals who have not studied the materials.

Discharges that do not reach the “Waters of the State” are not under the Requirements of a NPDES Permit: Discharges that do not reach “waters of the State” are not a violation of the CWA. There are a very few exception of this that are regional. It would take way too much time to explain rare exceptions here that apply to only a few like the Kansas City Area.

Municipalities that already have their BMPs in place are only concerned with their reportable contaminates in their MS4s: If the FOGs and Detergents are above target limits on their annual NPDES Reports to the EPA then the Municipalities will have to reexamine their enforcement, Illicit Discharge Detection and Elimination (IDDE) procedures, and their BMPs. At this time they may look at National Non-Profit Trade Associations for advice on what is working in other areas but are more likely to look at other municipalities for advice. EPA Region 6 has a formal procedure for this in their MS4 conferences. I have had one instance where the EPA required a municipality to open up their Sanitary Sewer System to discharges from Cosmetic Cleaners to reduce contaminates in their MS4s.

The Term Cosmetic Cleaners: This term was created by me back in 1995 when the need arose for a term to describe our industry. The City Attorney of Fort Worth and the EPA put it into legalize. It is now in a lot of regulations and ordinances with the legal description. You are welcome to change if you like, but with it acceptance and usage now in a lot of ordinances and BMPs, I believe is would be a waste of energy that could be better spent on other items.

Hot Water and Detergents are emulsifiers: This was in a letter I received from the EPA for corrections to my presentation. I looked for it but could not find it after about 20 years. Part of my presentations to Regulators is to always ask for corrections, comments, and recommendations on anything they disagree with. Watch the MS4-08 presentation to EPA Region 6 for verification of this; I believe it is still up on youtube. Due to your request I will go back and ask for another determination letter from the EPA.

I believe all of the other answers are obvious from studying the Model Ordinance, Model BMPs, or Model Workshop. Please do not ask any more questions without studying the materials. If you do not want to study it that is fine, all I ask if for you not to make any comments about its contents if you do not know what they are.

[Robert Hinderliter 64]

Byline: Lisa Patterson

Robert Hinderliter is known in the field of power washing as president and founder of Rahsco Mfg. Co. now PowerWash.com Hinderliter is a veritable force in the industry. But his work behind the scenes to regulate and streamline authority is largely unknown. Hinderliter worked for years to make sure, across the board, the standards and enforcements for power washers was universal. He still works to prefect the system today by being a watchdog in the power washing community. He ensures that power washers are not shutdown based on loose standards and haphazard chains of command. Since 1995 he has posted a website resource for Regulators, which resulted in a lot of references to PWNA and himself as Environmental Chairman of PWNA.

In September of 1992, Hinderliter founded Power Washers of North America (PWNA) to address cosmetic cleaning environmental issues. The group has become a “clear voice” in an industry of gray regulations along with United Association of Contract Cleaners (*****, which Hinderliter also founded). According to their website, with a stroke of a pen a law can be passed that puts a power washing contractor out of business. It goes on to say, a lawmaker, without the knowledge and understanding of the importance of the contract cleaner, can make an uneducated decision that can put a power washing company out of business and increase pollutants in the Storm Drains because of a lack of cleaning. Hinderliter, through his work with PWNA and ***** as Environmental Chairman, represents every power washing business and “communicates to the world that power washing is a vital part of the community.”

So for many power washers one question remains, why would the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) set standards without consulting the experts in the field? This was a question Hinderliter asked before he started offering and holding seminars for power washers, business owners and regulators. By using industry leaders to educate the outside world it allowed the power washing community more control of their practices. In 2006 two seminars were held in San Antonio, TX. The first seminar that was for regulators resulted in the development of the city’s Best Management Practices (BMPs). The second seminar was held for business owners along the River walk and contract cleaners in San Antonio to explain the BMPs. It just seems clear that the people who should be helping to steer this planning should be the experts. By having direct communication with the 2 groups, business owners and regulators (Storm Drain and Sanitary Sewer Departments), the implementation of such plans are smooth and organized.

But not every city in EPA region 6 is eager to adopt such practices. This hesitation isn't because of need or because of efficient practices already in place. It would seem to Hinderliter, from his years of diligently trying to educate regarding better practices, it's the city's lack of organization that limits their effectiveness for better pollution control. This disarray not only brings harm to the environment but also cause the city’s economy to dwindle. Hinderliter was instrumental in getting the EPA standards set for power washing regulations. EPA's Region 6 office reflects Hinderliter's perseverance and determination. Although cities are receptive to such seminars, Hinderliter has to take copious amounts of time to meet with the designated officials and get these seminars underway.

One such city that has not been receptive to this planning is Houston TX. Efforts in Houston, TX are taking some time considering they have three departments handling enforcement. These departments are: the Public Works Department; Storm Water Enforcement Group which enforces municipal code; the Health Department which also enforces municipal codes; and the Houston Police Department; Major Offenders Division (under Officer Stephen Dicker) enforces Texas & US Ordinances with criminal prosecution. These three departments do not work as a cohesive team. So there is no real guideline in place for enforcement. In fact, calls to 311 non-emergency number (verses 911 emergency number) are routed to one of the three departments randomly for cosmetic cleaning complaints. Depending on which department shows up to handle the complaints will determine how you are going to be treated; “Education and Compliance” or “Criminal Prosecution”. As stated by Officer Dicker, “in criminal law there are no allowances for warnings written into the law.” So if the police department showed up citations are being issued. This caused many power washers to pull their operation out of the City of Houston, which resulted in cleaning not being done and pollutants being washed into the Storm Drains during the next rain event.

Hinderliter's efforts in Houston began in 2005 when he was in contact with Lanice Blue, Environmental Investigator II. At the time there were seven contract cleaners that held Class C permits for waste water transportation. Moving on to 2007 after a successful round of seminars in San Antonio TX in 2006, Hinderliter had several contacts with Houston TX including: Amy Boyers, Senior Environmental Planner; Naomi Marcias, Environmental Investigator; Sylvia Brumlow, Community Liaison, HPD; Dorene Hancock, Supervisor Stormwater Enforcement; Nancy Sullins; Almika Millage, Department of Health and Human Services. Through these contacts he was under the impression he was going to do Environmental Workshops for Houston TX similar to the ones he had just done for San Antonio. According to Hinderliter, “There was a lot of conversation along that line then Houston just stopped talking to me without any explanation.”

Hinderliter found this silence to be unprovoked considering that during the process of negotiations with Houston, TX he did a seminar for EPA region 6 explaining the effects of heavy enforcement vs voluntary compliance with ordinance being reasonable, rational, and logical. After the presentation he had a group of panelists from various municipalities come up to answer questions about their ordinances and the effect they were having. Dorene Hancock represented Houston and explained their enforcement efforts and asked him to return the following year to emphasize the demonstration of BMPs. According to Hinderliter, Dorene Hancock was “easy to work with, being reasonable, rational, and logical.” He worked with her on two MS4 Conferences for Region 6.

So what has caused this silence in an area that seems desperately in need of structure. Hinderliter feels that part of the problem is “jealousy” between regulators and departments within the city of Houston. Hinderliter sees egos getting in the way of efficiency. Also it's a major case of departments being uneducated in needed practices. Because each department works autonomously from one another there is no protocol to handle waste coming from another department. An obvious example of that is the Storm Water Enforcement and the Sanitation Department. Storm Water Department claim they do not want the runoff in their drains while Sanitary Sewer Department claims they can't handle the waste since it is composed of chemicals they are not accustomed to sanitizing and only allow 3 discharge points in the City of Houston; which increases the cost of cleaning because of transportation cost. Because of the deflecting of authority and the over use of one department as the official criminal enforcer there is a breakdown of the city’s economic flow and a negative effect on pollution control. As Hinderliter pointed out, based on EPA reports, a city such as Fort Worth, TX who has an ordinance in place that is rational, reasonable, logical and depend on voluntary compliance has the same level of contaminates in Storm Drains as Houston who has over enforcement. The problem, as Hinderliter would argue, is not the amount of enforcement but the lack of a structured plan where all departments work together to enforce a set BMPs that are reasonable, rational, and logical. Hinderliter feels that Houston, TX understands this because of their attendance at the EPA Region 6 MS4 Conference where he presented this information with Houston in attendance and Dorene Hancock serving on a panel at the end of the presentation.

The key to success with the seminars that Hinderliter offers is that all parties involved attend; Storm Water Department, Sanitary Sewer Department, and Contract Cleaners. This way the BMPs can be demonstrated and molded for efficiency. But Hinderliter continues on in Houston to meet with the departments that did not attend. But it’s been a struggle. Houston, TX has been the only municipality to ignore the Industrial Trade Associations input & most Open Records Requests. Although based on emails sent to Hinderliter, it wasn’t a matter of ignoring rather a matter of departments relinquishing the responsibility to other departments. But Hinderliter feels it is stalling which is only causing the city to become more polluted and unclean.

He has had tremendous success with other areas of EPA Region 6 which services, Arkansas, Louisiana, New Mexico, Oklahoma and Texas. Hinderliter's unfailing commitment to his industry has allowed power washers to continue working and business's to continue growing based on curb appeal and this allows the city's economy to grow as well. Houston, TX has had three Power Washing Workshops sponsored by the Police Department, one in 2007 and two in 2011. These seminars were recorded and are online for free viewing. But more work is needed.

Hinderliter will continue on in his efforts but encourages the power washers in the industry to be a “voice”. He encourages the power washers, business owners and regulators to support PWNA and *****. As the PWNA website extols, every business of every size, from 1 to 10,000, needs to be one of the many voices of the PWNA. The more members we have, the stronger and clearer our voice becomes. The stronger and clearer our voice is, the more protected and secure our businesses are. Become a part of that voice and protect the investment of time and money that you have put into your business.

[Robert Hinderliter 64]

False Accusations:

False Accusations has been part of the job of being an environmentalist and leader in the Cosmetic Cleaning Industry, most false accusations are for competitive reasons. I would like to share a few humorous examples.

The EPA called the City of Fort Worth because they were getting a large number of accusations about me and my company. The EPA told me that the City Of Fort Worth responded by saying that if Hinderliter was doing that they would eat their shorts! (How is your reputation?)

The City of Fort Worth was getting a large number of calls from other Regulation Agencies about Cosmetic Cleaning. When I asked why they explained “Because of you and all of your activity”.

The State of Texas Department of Natural Resources monitored my location for several weeks because of all of the complaints they were getting about me. After which the Agent that was charge with doing the investigation came into my office and introduced himself. He said that he did not normally come in and introduced himself, but in my case he made an exception because it was obvious that everything I was accused was false and was making a good faith environmental effort do everything correctly. And that it was also unfortunate that leaders generally attracted these kinds of accusations. As he said “it goes with the territory”.

George at StormCon thinks this is funny and enjoys teasing me about it; in front of more people the better. It’s been an ongoing joke for several years, especially my request for a speaking time slot.

I have gotten use to these kinds of attacks, and do not pay much attention to them. Others are more upset than me. Since most of these attacks come from a very small group of people I tend to ignore them. However, I have been requested to start responding and defending myself, I have depended on others to do this in the past because it has more validity. But as with everything else I can change to coincide with today’s environment and request.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

stormh2o.com

William they actually publish a magazine that for Storm water people to read.

I'm sure they will be running a story about this in there publications and there affiliation with these national Associations in the cleaning world.

This is the contact info for the convention that RH is referring to. Maybe some would like to let them know that the info presented is not done with the approval of org members.

Steve Di Giorgi

StormCon Director

Phone: (805) 682-1300 x129 or Fax: (805) 682-0200

stevedg@forester.net.

[Doug Rucker 31]

stormh2o.com

William they actually publish a magazine that for Storm water people to read.

I'm sure they will be running a story about this in there publications and there affiliation with these national Associations in the cleaning world.

Thanks for posting that info Ron. That is great educational material

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Thanks for posting that info Ron. That is great educational material

Yes because as a responsible party they are held liable to the material that's published. I'm waiting to see if that happens, I'm also having our storm water staff contact them about cleaning story's in the real world.

It would be interesting to have them follow a story about the truth in Houston and how influenced regulators and enforcement got lead astray.

[Robert Hinderliter 64]

Summary:

1. The concerns around environmental issues have become very clouded by conspiracy theories and constant misinterpretation of what has taken place. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but if you really are concerned then do the home work to reach an honest and independent decision. Don’t let hearsay be the guide to more misinformation and making a wrong decision that has the potential to seriously cause a negative impact to your business.

2. BMP’s do not create law. As the name suggest, they are best management practices. Municipalities, Contractors or any authority that has influence on how to recovery or even not recover needs to decide what to take from them and what not to take from them. There are many factors that will affect this: 1) There immediate area Urban or Rural; 2) The area of the country plains, coastal or mountain; 3) What kind of discharge limits does the EPA require the city to comply with. That is the Cities have to answer to the EPA or State for discharges of their storm drains to the “waters of the state”; 4)etc – I am sure you have more to add.

3. The BMP’s are recommendation

4. Contractors should get involve at the municipal or state level to help influence what will happen in their areas.

5. Municipalities are not looking to regulate our industry. They are being force to do so by the clean water act. If we as an industry sit back without offering solutions then we are at their mercy. And no offense to regulators; but it is not their job to find solution but to enforce the law. If we are not finding solutions for our industry then they will or simply outlawed mobile power washing.

Simply put many of the major municipalities already have regulations / ordinances in place. It is interesting to see so much focus and concern over the issue so many years after it first raised it ugly head. I hope that it continues and we as an industry can continue to find new and improved ways to protect the environment and the future of our industry.

[Celeste 341]

Adding to Robert's bullet point #2.......BMP's are NOT law. That being said, it is the contractors responsibility to "keep up with them" as they can be changed at any given time with no notification being required.

[M Hinderliter 64]

At the Houston Envirmental Enforcement meeting this past July, Sargent Michael Walsh expained why enforcement became so aggressive toward power washing. I strongly recommend watching these four video's if you want to know first hand. At the end of the video's I have also added the complete playlist for all the video on youtube to see the meeting in it's entirety.

Link to see the entire Houston Environmental Enforcement Meeting:

Edited August 20, 2011 by M Hinderliter

[tonyshelton 112]

Adding to Robert's bullet point #2.......BMP's are NOT law. That being said, it is the contractors responsibility to "keep up with them" as they can be changed at any given time with no notification being required.

The nationwide campaign to "buckle up" was not law either......at first.

[Guy B 70]

Again, I have no problem with the "Meat" of the BMP's, but I do have a problem with local Regulators going "Above & Beyond", where does this end? When will it be a crime to have wash water hit the ground when washing houses or apartments? When will it be deemed illegal to sump into a "Landscaped Area"? If I have blocked a drain but by chance 10 or 20 gals seeps by, am I put in jail? Is it a $10,000 or $20,000 fine? Where will it end?

It is my understanding that developers (In Houston) were suppose to have complied with Regulations as to regards to "Interceptors" being installed to stop off property discharge. I heard no mention of interceptors in any of the videos. Are all parking decks in Houston equipped with these now? If not are the owners of these parking decks violating the law by not being in compliance? At any time was the subject of "Interceptors" brought up in the Houston meetings?

Why do I care about what is happening in Houston? Because it's happening in my area. This spring we were washing apartments in a small town near my main service area. I noticed a City truck cruising by a couple of times when he decided to stop. He introduced himself as a "Environmental Enforcement Tech". He explained to me that "Someone" had called and said I was discharging in the storm drain, I told him nothing could be further from the truth and to check for his self. He did and found I was Compliant. He then bragged that he had caught a couple of washers cleaning fast food joints in town, and Popped them $1000.00 a piece, then went on to explain their Towns BMP's, I explained to him that I was not aware that their Town had any Bmp's but that I was pretty sure I could recite them back to him, and was fully aware of what they were and what they meant....In a nice way. He really didn't seem impressed when I told him I was a licensed waste water operator in N.C. for the last 12 years.

We talked about the drain and "What If" I told him that I would block it and sump the wash water to a "Landscaped Area" to which he replied "Well We Would Really Rather You Send It To A Sanitary Clean Out Drain" quite smugly. So I ask him "Does Your Waste Water Plant Know This"? His reply....No. I let him know that if he or his boss had any questions to just give me a call, didn't seem to like that either.

Sorry Back On Topic........... I just don't see why City Officials and Contractors can't work together for the same common goal.

[Guy B 70]

To answer some more questions:

Most of the questions are because people have not read or studied the Model Ordinance, Model BMPs, or Model Workshop which has been made available to everyone. Eric Flynn had no problem after studying the material in making a presentation to Galveston County, which was very well accepted with a lot of information that they needed.

I am going to answer questions that you may have after studying the material that are not obvious.

Why do the municipalities need this information: NPDES Phase I and Phase II MS4 Permits require the municipalities to develop and implement Cosmetic Cleaning BMPs with measureable goals. For the Cosmetic Cleaning Industry these parameters are: Fats, Oils, Greases (FOG), and Detergents in the MS4s. Phase II Permits are in 5-year plans, this issue has to be addresses in the second 5-year plan if it was not addressed in the first 5-year plan. There was some lenience when the 5-years plans started, most municipalities’ are in their second 5-year plan. Galveston County is in their first 5-year plan in year 4, which called for these BMPs before the end of August, 2011.

These 5-year plans are not a cookie cuter, which is they all do not have to be the same. The municipalities have to submit their plans for EPA approval, which include measureable goals for reporting purposes. Each municipality can do the necessary items in the order and style that comply with their particular situation. Galveston County chose the first 5-year plan year Number 4 to address our industry. This is addresses in most 5-year plans in the second 5-year plan. This means that is going to be like pop-corn going off all over the county for the next 5 to 10 years.

So why did the P$na tell everyone that they were not going to shop the Model BMP around to Municipalities? So they lied?

Why consult a National Non-profit Trade Association: I do have any documentation on this but I have been told many times by regulators that they could take comment from me as a representative of a National Non-Profit Trade Association but could not accept any comments from me for changes as a private business owner. In over 20 years there has never been an exception. Galveston County reached out to the two National Non-Profit Trade Associations for advice, and when Eric made his presentation it was as a representative of *****. After Eric studied the material he asked if he could change it to fit Galveston County needs. I informed Eric that was the purpose of the Model BMPs, as there was too much material for one person to develop on their own. If a local member of either ***** or PWNA was not available and willing to make the presentation than I would have had to go. This makes perfect sense it's called "Conflict Of Interest"

Because of this protocol it part of National Non-Profit Trade Association responsibility to fulfill this need. This was explained to me by an EPA Regulator who mentored me about the political requirements of how regulations were developed. As a result this training from an EPA Regulator PWNA was born after CEMA refused to admit Contract Cleaners into their membership. And the ***** was born after a conflict with the P$na.

NPDES Requirements, Public Outreach and Education: Part of the NPDES Permit Requirements is for Public Outreach and Education; this means when ever a municipality furnishes a speaker or consultant at any function or personal advice they are filling part of their NPDES Requirements. The purpose of this is not to educate the speaker, but to educate the audience in their BMPs and how they interpret the CWA. This is not a “Public Comment Period”. May be not, but it should be. How they interpret the CWA...I Love That

The Model BMPs do not promote Sales of Expensive Equipment: In most cases the Model BMPs can be complied with for less that $200.00 if the Contract Cleaner chooses. There are provisions for complete reclaim and remediation systems if the contract cleaner chooses for competitive reasons. Statements otherwise are made by individuals who have not studied the materials. In most cases sump pump and a pool won't get it, but it's an option

Discharges that do not reach the “Waters of the State” are not under the Requirements of a NPDES Permit: Discharges that do not reach “waters of the State” are not a violation of the CWA. There are a very few exception of this that are regional. It would take way too much time to explain rare exceptions here that apply to only a few like the Kansas City Area. This would be another "How they interpret State Waters" Houston says ditches are State Waters, along with sewers, dry lakes, or any depression of land that collects water. I may be wrong but I believe they include septic systems in this also.

Municipalities that already have their BMPs in place are only concerned with their reportable contaminates in their MS4s: If the FOGs and Detergents are above target limits on their annual NPDES Reports to the EPA then the Municipalities will have to reexamine their enforcement, Illicit Discharge Detection and Elimination (IDDE) procedures, and their BMPs. At this time they may look at National Non-Profit Trade Associations for advice on what is working in other areas but are more likely to look at other municipalities for advice. EPA Region 6 has a formal procedure for this in their MS4 conferences. I have had one instance where the EPA required a municipality to open up their Sanitary Sewer System to discharges from Cosmetic Cleaners to reduce contaminates in their MS4s. Again makes sense. If Municipalities are above their limits the EPA could withhold Grant Monies.

The Term Cosmetic Cleaners: This term was created by me back in 1995 when the need arose for a term to describe our industry. The City Attorney of Fort Worth and the EPA put it into legalize. It is now in a lot of regulations and ordinances with the legal description. You are welcome to change if you like, but with it acceptance and usage now in a lot of ordinances and BMPs, I believe is would be a waste of energy that could be better spent on other items. As BMP's evolve, as Environmental concerns evolve, so should the description of our Industry evolve. You're right, waste of time.

Hot Water and Detergents are emulsifiers: This was in a letter I received from the EPA for corrections to my presentation. I looked for it but could not find it after about 20 years. Part of my presentations to Regulators is to always ask for corrections, comments, and recommendations on anything they disagree with. Watch the MS4-08 presentation to EPA Region 6 for verification of this; I believe it is still up on youtube. Due to your request I will go back and ask for another determination letter from the EPA. Never said anything about Detergents, I know they're emulsifiers. I was talking about the use of hot water, yes it emulsifies, so does cold water to a certain extent.

I believe all of the other answers are obvious from studying the Model Ordinance, Model BMPs, or Model Workshop. Please do not ask any more questions without studying the materials. If you do not want to study it that is fine, all I ask if for you not to make any comments about its contents if you do not know what they are. Got nothing for that one

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Adding to Robert's bullet point #2.......BMP's are NOT law. That being said, it is the contractors responsibility to "keep up with them" as they can be changed at any given time with no notification being required.

Yes but the ordinances they create around them or interpretations of current laws they enforce.

Funny how Houston's bpms read on way and they enforced another.

They even went as far as saying and ordinance was created to allow they to have jurisdiction on private property. To this day I cannot find this ordinance they spoke of in the meetings. We also cannot find any other violations than ms4.

They intentionally create bmps because they are just

Guidelines. Somewhere along the way sgt Walsh fit frustrated as he claims in his own video. He got tired of giving warnings. So he decided to start handing out tickets.

One thing for sure is the ball was dropped by who ever was responsible for helping Houston set this up.

I'll thank doug for bringing this to the attn of the industry. Through his efforts the city was sent messages that the pressure washing industry was not contributing to pollution. Proving to them we could actually reduce pollution opened there eyes.

Don't kid yourself there was party's that knew this. Talking with city engineers they understood what we do and in some respects they had been looking the other way. Why? Because no one group or organization was watching our interests. It was that simple!

[Cyclone 25]

This thread is pretty amazing reading for me. There are 5 complete flip-flops and 1 double flip-flopper. Could you people please pick a lane and stay in it?

I'm not going to single anyone out, but let me say....welcome to reality, we saved you a seat!

[Ron Musgraves 240]

This thread is pretty amazing reading for me. There are 5 complete flip-flops and 1 double flip-flopper. Could you people please pick a lane and stay in it?

I'm not going to single anyone out, but let me say....welcome to reality, we saved you a seat!

And now a guy who ducks in and out!! Lol

[Cyclone 25]

I encourage all members to cancel their memberships in protest of this blatant attempt to sell out the individual contractors by the vendors.

I agree and it will be quite interesting (and quite telling) watching the PTB, industry leaders, Org members and BOD position themselves on this.

I don't understand why it's been so difficult for some people to follow the breadcrumb$.....the direction of both PWNA and ***** wasn't hard to read, it was like a huge neon sign. The revelations in this thread is not news....it's confirmation. Like someone said.....sheep being led to slaughter.

Starve the beast....

[Cyclone 25]

And now a guy who ducks in and out!! Lol

We could add pushed out and a dash of edited out to that if we wanted to be totally factual, and the ironic part is that it's been because of similar points being made in this very thread. However, in all honesty....I've been slammed for three months....I haven't had a lot of time to visit forums.

BTW, I'm going to ask you for like the third time since our first conversation (by-for Org) last fall.....if not now, when? You were spot on then and the dynamics (the need) appear to be greater than it ever was.

P.S. Did you just hang up on me LOL!!!

[Cyclone 25]

Why? Because the ***** stands against everything they stand for,

Apparently not everything

I'm sure the other Org. would love for you guys to Drop or not renew your Membership to the *****, just gives them more power. They don't need Membership dues to survive, the ***** does.....Think About It.

There might be two Org's with separate boards but the wording of the first post, the statement by John Orr and the justification by Mr Hinderliter "I did not have the time for all of the proper protocol" should clear up your confusion over the "Us vs Them". The difference with respect to environmental policy of the two Org's seems about the same as Chevy vs GMC. While I'm sure the Board at GMC want's to out sell the Chevy trucks it's just a different column in the GM accounting ledger.

Don't get me wrong, Vendors are one of the most important assets of any Org., but the most important asset is it's Members and the best interests of it's Members..... Period.

If there was a 2000 contractor member org, without any vendors on the board or involved in any committee....would they be any less valuable an asset? They would still pay for associate membership, support conferences and round tables, buy ad space and booths.....they'd be insane not to. You don't need to give them the power to steer the industry regulations and authority to make policy decisions and press releases.

[Guy B 70]

You don't need to give them the power to steer the industry regulations and authority to make policy decisions and press releases.

I'm sure for those who do not know the history, dynamics, players, facts. etc. of this can easily "arm chair quarterback" their opinion. Which is fine, it's your uneducated opinion, have at it.

Barry, your above quote is really what this is all about.

Good to see you.

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