Cyclone 25 Report post Posted August 22, 2011 I'm sure for those who do not know the history, dynamics, players, facts. etc. of this can easily "arm chair quarterback" their opinion. Which is fine, it's your uneducated opinion, have at it.Barry, your above quote is really what this is all about. Good to see you. All opinions are equally important and valid in a member supported Org....at least they should be. As for the issue at hand, all the education needed is in this very thread. You could grab any reasonably intelligent person off the street, let them read page one and they would understand the two sides of the issue. It's not the science or the chemistry, it's about money. In fact I can make my point/position with two quotes from you and one from Mr Hinderliter What you're saying, and what you're doing seem to be totally opposite. it's called "Conflict Of Interest" I have been told many times by regulators that they could take comment from me as a representative of a National Non-Profit Trade Association but could not accept any comments from me for changes as a private business owner. My quote, this thread and your own questions are pretty much the basis of two years of debating and arguing with you and others. You are asking Mr Hinderliter some very good pressing questions. That's great. However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that this could not have happened without the ***** allowing it either via direct permission or by abdication of leadership on an extremely important issue....In the NCAA this is called "a loss of institutional control"....which is really really what this is all about. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guy B 70 Report post Posted August 22, 2011 All opinions are equally important and valid in a member supported Org....at least they should be.However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that this could not have happened without the ***** allowing it either via direct permission or by abdication of leadership on an extremely important issue....In the NCAA this is called "a loss of institutional control"....which is really really what this is all about. First quote is true Barry. Opinions of Members in a Member supported Org are very important, but if you're talking about "Any And All Opinions" from people that don't have a dog in the fight and or not Members, then I would have to say "No Not Really". No one is ignoring anything Barry, especially me. There has been quite the debate about this at the ***** forum. You see there is more at play here than you seem to think you know Barry. Loss of Institutional Control is not what this is about at all, but I don't expect you to understand or see that from your vantage point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Hinderliter 64 Report post Posted August 23, 2011 Lots of strong interest at StormCon; More than in past years. My recommendation now is for every contract cleaner to modify the BMPs for his area and post them on his website. Sent from my Dell Streak using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Hinderliter 64 Report post Posted August 23, 2011 Feed back from the Regulators is that for the Industry to have maximum effectiveness is for everyone to post BMPs on their websites and abide by them. This shows knowledge and intent. Sent from my Dell Streak using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Hinderliter 64 Report post Posted August 23, 2011 At this time it is obvious that everyone should be able to work with their local munipalities as Eric Flynn did. After you study the BMPs as Eric did, the only help you should need is Telephone support for modifying for your local jurisdiction. The jurisdictions would rather deal with a local contractor presenting a National Association's BMPs. The only reason everone cannot do this is because they have not done their homework. Are you going to lead or follow? Sent from my Dell Streak using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyshelton 112 Report post Posted August 23, 2011 Lots of strong interest at StormCon; More than in past years. My recommendation now is for every contract cleaner to modify the BMPs for his area and post them on his website.Sent from my Dell Streak using Tapatalk Why is that Robert? Why is there so much interest in regards to our industry now? It reminds me of a job I had when I was still in high school. It was at Stauffer Chemical plant. They mined phosphorus. They took the easy and more profitable product first, then dug into the less profitable sources. Then, as a last resort they had me, standing there with a high powered pump making mud from dirt all day. They took the mud and through some chemical process were able to squeeze the last remaining drop of phosphorus out. That's what we are Robert. Of course there was a lot of strong interest. Now that we are on the radar the interest will only increase. I don't believe the interest is following a natural increase curve, though. We work nights, we are low impact. We WERE totally off the radar of enforcement. All one has to do is look at who is exhibiting at St&rmcom and it doesn't take much to determine where the interest is being generated from. 706-708 AbTech Distributor/Waste Management 710-712 AbTech Industries Inc. 505 ACF Environmental 705 Ackerstone 728 Advanced Drainage Systems 415 AECOM 430 A-Lok Products 724 AMEC Earth & Environmental 225 American Academy of Water Res. Eng's 420 American Fiber Rolls Inc. 209 American Peat Technology 406 AP/M Permaform 602 Applied Polymer Systems 802 ARCADIS/Malcolm Pirnie 410 Arvis Consulting Inc. 807 Asphalt Pavement Alliance 625 AquaShield Inc. 307 BaySaver Technologies Inc. 803-805 Belgard 826 Ben Meadows 711-713 Bio Clean Environmental 531 Bio-Microbics Inc. 533-537 Brentwood Industries 633 Campbell Scientific Inc. 414 Catch-All LLC 630 CBI Systems 422 CIF Composites Inc. 830 CISEC Inc. 801 Clean Way Environmental Partners Inc. 811 ClearTec Global/Haz-Mat Response Technologies 709 Clearwater Solutions Inc. 503 Coanda 511-513 CONTECH Construction 419 Contractors-Services LLC 620-622 CULTEC Inc. 611 Dandy Products Inc. 424 DHI Water & Environment Inc. 636 Dungeness Environmental 825 EarthGuard by Terra Novo Inc. 607 East Jordan Iron Works 725-727 EcoRain Systems Inc. 632 Elastec/American Marine 726 Elgin Sweeper/Vactor Manufacturing 837 EnviroCert Intl. 806 ESRI 730-732 Fiberweb 408-410 Filterra 306 Filtrexx 507-509-606-608 Firestone Specialty Products 613 Fresh Creek Technologies 525 Global Water Instrumentation (ITT Corporation) 222-224 HaloSource/StormKlear 309 Harco Fittings 210 HESCO Bastian USA 811 Haz-Mat Technologies 603-605-702-704 Hydro International 501 HydroScreen 624-626 Imbrium Systems 323 Inland Pipe Rehabilitation LLC 307A Innovative Turf Solutions 828 InterClean Equipment Inc. 308 IPEX USA LLC 521-523-525 ITT Corporation (Global Water) 736 J.W. Faircloth and Son Inc. 214 Jensen Precast 313-315 JM Eagle 228 Kanaflex Corporation 813-815-817 Kristar Enterprises Inc. 833 Landmark Earth Solutions (Scourstop) 324 Layfield Group 834-836 LRM Industries International Inc. 802 Malcolm Pirnie / ARCADIS 804 Mar Mac Construction Products 223 Miller Pipeline 711-713 Modular Wetlands 916 Myron L Company 310 National Precast Concrete Association 311 Neenah Foundry 604 Neptune Automated Wheel Wash 207 Oldcastle Precast Inc. 406A ORCO Block Company 527-529 Park Environmental Equipment Ltd. 635-637 Penda Corporation - Smart Ditch 210 PermiTrack 703 Press-Seal Gasket 600 Presto Products 206 Prinsco Inc. 319 RBF Consulting 329 REM Inc./Revel Environmental Manufacturing 627-629 Rinker Materials - Concrete Pipe Division 609 Roscoe Moss Company 729 Rotondo Environmental Solutions 321 Saertex multiCom LP 831 Soil Retention Products Inc. 808 St. Anthony Falls Laboratory 735-737 Storm Water Systems Inc. 734 StormChamber 821 StormTrap 428 Stormwater Equipment Manufacturers Association 405 Stormwater Magazine 733 Stormwater USA 835 StormwateRx LLC 810-812 Suntree Technologies 628 Superior Gunite 707 SYMMLOC Company 211 Syracuse Castings West 829 Tec Inc. 218-220 Teledyne ISCO Inc. 331 Texas A&M University–Kingsville 426 Torrent Resources 731 Trelleborg Pipe Seals 809 TYMCO Inc. 824 UltraTech International 827 UNI-GROUP USA 212 United Stormwater Inc. 808 University of Minnesota - St. Anthony Falls Laboratory 412 Vieux & Associates Inc. 631 Water & Wastes Digest 413 Water Environment Federation 325-327 WDD Engineering and Construction 832 West Coast Storm 322 WesTech Engineering Inc. 427 Wheelwash Inc. 417 XP Software 418 Yardney Water Management 429 Zweigwhite I posted this so everyone would know what "StormCon" really is just in case some were fooled into believing it is anything more than a bunch of people trying to convince their customers and the government to buy their products out of fear. STORMCON is NOT some kind of government boot camp on how to SAVE OUR CHILDREN. I had already called Ron and decided to go with or without him till I did a little more research on what Stormcon really is and then realized I'd be wasting time there. Robert, with the universities that were represented there were you able to come back with any potential sources for studies to show the truth of our positive impact on the environment? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John T 744 Report post Posted August 23, 2011 At this time it is obvious that everyone should be able to work with their local munipalities as Eric Flynn did. After you study the BMPs as Eric did, the only help you should need is Telephone support for modifying for your local jurisdiction.The jurisdictions would rather deal with a local contractor presenting a National Association's BMPs. The only reason everone cannot do this is because they have not done their homework. Are you going to lead or follow? Sent from my Dell Streak using Tapatalk Robert that says it all tbere. I Don't know for the life of me why the internet guys can't grasp that what your saying above. Well check that. I Do know why and its obvious. I should have gone to Houston myself because this can and soon will have an effect ony business. What was said on the net was selective as in guys only saying whatt they wanted to let out because it will possibly benefit them with $$$$. I alsp heard one of the most rediculous auch as the "PWNA shot themselves in the foot that came from a reliable source" Yet the person won't release who that 'Relable Source" is. So in essence they can't back up what there saying along with they only want to tell the masses what they want them to hear. They also want to do something that they can alone take credit for because an org/association they determined has no right to do anything----TOTALY MISLEADING!! And that alone is another reason I should have wemt to Houston because once again where not getting all the facts from some individuals who were there and what they came out with. I'll give one big case in point and its factual which in the court of Law the only thing woth Merit is the Facts. These individuals not once that I can reacall mention what SGT. WALSH makes very Clear.."YOU SHOULD BELONG TO YOUR INDUSTRY ASSOCIATIONS!!! These suppose guys said they were there and yet they leave out a clear and obvious point of what was said down there because it doesn't benefit them to say it so they dismiss completly what the expert in his field SGT. WALSH has clearly and emphatically said. That to me Robert is disturbing to say the least. I want to see the rest of the Video if I can get it because to me I Don't want the "SALES PITCH"......I WANT THE FACTS!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John T 744 Report post Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) Duplicate post. Edited August 23, 2011 by John T droid phone mishaps Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyshelton 112 Report post Posted August 23, 2011 John, a guy who stood behind the fining of Doug ********** for a non-existent is not the guy who I want to be looking to for advice in how to run my business affairs (Walsh). Maybe he should learn his own job before he tells us how to do ours. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Hinderliter 64 Report post Posted August 23, 2011 The Trade Show is 2-Days plus an evenimg reception and Trainining and Certification Courses are 5-Days which is the main focus, not the Trade Show. Sent from my Dell Streak using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Hinderliter 64 Report post Posted August 23, 2011 There is game changing technology being tested in a major american city that we need to be a part of. I suggest that information be released only to a local contractor who is a member of the associations. It will be a major competitive advantage for someone during the test period. I'll need advice from both Persidents on how to proceed. Sent from my Dell Streak using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Hinderliter 64 Report post Posted August 23, 2011 There is another Play Maker making a presentation to their State EPA. Sent from my Dell Streak using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Hinderliter 64 Report post Posted August 23, 2011 I recommend that every member of PWNA OR ***** that would like a copy of the BMPs place their order with Association Headquarters: 1-copy for $20.00, 2-copies for $35.00 including shipping & handling. That is an extra copy for your local regulator. Sent from my Dell Streak using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigchaz 157 Report post Posted August 23, 2011 Wow are you kidding me? You now have to pay to see the document that is not being shopped (read: is being shopped) behind everyone's back. And here I thought rape was illegal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
offduty 25 Report post Posted August 24, 2011 This whole thing has turned into a huge joke Charlie. There will always be suckers that fall for this kind of stuff. Can't fault someone for trying to make a buck I guess. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
offduty 25 Report post Posted August 24, 2011 For those that accepted for truth that the PW NA was not shopping bmp's to muncipalities, check the last page of this document. http://www.sactostormwater.org/documents/brochures/PressureWasherBMPs.pdf Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyshelton 112 Report post Posted August 24, 2011 This is now MLS. Similar to Multi Level Marketing, but it's multi level shopping. Sounds like they were telling the truth. They aren't shopping the BMP's, They're selling them to us so we can shop them. I suppose if you sell to 5 municipalities you move up a level. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyshelton 112 Report post Posted August 24, 2011 Alright, I was just being a smart alec in the previous post. I still don't understand how you could come to us asking for advice on the BMP's while adamantly declaring that you were NOT going to shop them and then can come in front of the same people and make a post like the one above. It's just completely confusing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John Orr 206 Report post Posted August 24, 2011 The ***** does not sell copies of these BMPs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guy B 70 Report post Posted August 24, 2011 (edited) This is a quote from Chris Chappel in another thread. This is what really scares & pisses me off the most. This is what can and will happen when Municipalities start calling around to other Municipalities for further information on how to handle this situation. Leaches & Vultures descend on the Contractor to suck the profit from their Business and in most cases put them out of Business. There are no provisions to help protect the PW Contractor, only ways of sucking every bit of money from his pocket. Are the people and Organizations that have shopped these BMP's around to blame??? If they do nothing to protect the Contractor from this beyond the BMP I say....Yes You Are!!! You knew this was going to happen because it already happened in your area. You will be responsible for every Contractor that is put out of Business Where are the BMP's for the parking decks, dirty building & sidewalks, restaurants, etc. that says they Must have they're property cleaned For The Health & Safety Of The Public & The Children! Don't you care about that? Yea I played the Kid Card. Here's the quote. "I agree with a lot of you out there, there is a lot of mis-information and lies out there and that was a huge part of the problem there in Houston. They wanted you to get registered with the city, haul hazardous waste (without informing you that you need to have a CDL, D.O.T. approved Tank and vehicle to haul the waste, Placards to show what is being hauled, the necessary information and insurance, get registered with the D.O.T. for hauling hazardous waste, and a lot more!), they wanted you to haul the wash water across town and fill out manifests and pay for each manifest for each job no later than 4 days from the time the job is completed and pay for the wash water to be disposed of (never found out from the city what the rate per load or gallon cost to be disposed of), pay a monthly or yearly fee to be registered with the city (yearly fee was over $450 per year) and if you are hauling wash water that vehicle had to be registered also. There is more to this but you can get an idea of the hoops they wanted you to jump through just to work there." Again I say...I don't have a problem with the BMP, I have a problem with all the Crap that will come with it. Edited August 24, 2011 by Guy B Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cyclone 25 Report post Posted August 26, 2011 There is game changing technology being tested in a major american city that we need to be a part of. I suggest that information be released only to a local contractor who is a member of the associations. It will be a major competitive advantage for someone during the test period. I'll need advice from both Persidents on how to proceed. Incredible.... no...beyond incredible. Some unlucky PW'er in a major city who is not a member of both Org's is about to suffer the consequences of ignoring the environmental cartel. Is this a new membership campaign technique? Maybe the Orgs should merge, you know, to avoid annoying technicalities like the Sherman Act. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douglas Hicks 128 Report post Posted August 26, 2011 Top of Page 3, rewards for those PW'ers who comply w/the regs. Free air miles? Over time, we will see 2 options for PW'ers. Be proactive and get involved in your local/state about these regs or just complain. For those who complain, you have 2 options, try to go under the radar and find out how expensive that can be, or comply with something you chose to not be involved in. What UMACC and PWNA have done may not have been handled as well as it could have been, but what happended has happened, it is time to move on. Be part of the solution or not, your choice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thad 135 Report post Posted August 29, 2011 I would like to clarify that the ***** had no prior knowledge of this press release before it was posted. Also, Mr. Robert has resigned his position as Environmental Chairman of the *****. http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/organizational-news-information-discussions-area/22113-thank-you-robert-hinderliter.html#post195161 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron Musgraves 240 Report post Posted August 29, 2011 Doug is that because you work for these Folks? I mean you sub work from there business, is that the case and point? Are you involved in the procurement of contracts with these same individuals? Its just a couple of questions, not really my business. You just really seem to be all for this and that seems a bit strange knowing your back ground and how it relates with other associations your involved with. Top of Page 3, rewards for those PW'ers who comply w/the regs. Free air miles? Over time, we will see 2 options for PW'ers. Be proactive and get involved in your local/state about these regs or just complain. For those who complain, you have 2 options, try to go under the radar and find out how expensive that can be, or comply with something you chose to not be involved in. What UMACC and PWNA have done may not have been handled as well as it could have been, but what happended has happened, it is time to move on. Be part of the solution or not, your choice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cyclone 25 Report post Posted August 29, 2011 Top of Page 3, rewards for those PW'ers who comply w/the regs. Free air miles? Over time, we will see 2 options for PW'ers. Be proactive and get involved in your local/state about these regs or just complain. For those who complain, you have 2 options, try to go under the radar and find out how expensive that can be, or comply with something you chose to not be involved in. What UMACC and PWNA have done may not have been handled as well as it could have been, but what happended has happened, it is time to move on. Be part of the solution or not, your choice. You mean give up not move on. You make it sound like what was done is done and cannot be changed when in reality, it's still the beginning, still happening and not unchangeable. There are more than 2 choices.... The choices you mention are 1. Be proactive and get involved (I'm assuming this means via the Org's)" and 2. Complain The truth is that choice #2 is the beginning of many other choices. In fact, we are seeing a few already within one of the Org's. We are also seeing people advocate dropping their membership which is really choice #3 but probably starts with complaining that is ignored. There are also people actually discussing a new Org....which I hope is not modeled after the two failures. As a PW'er that has never joined either of the other two, I would support an Org that was truly for the contractor. I'd wager there are other like me....still others that have joined one or both. BTW...complaining is the beginning of all change....either political or organizational. Nothing changes if people are happy and happy people don't complain. Complainers are the instrument of all change. Not all malcontents are complainers and not all complainers are malcontents.... What P@NA and UA@CC did was not handled well as you said and this seems to be a repeating cycle, and you are correct, it is time to move on. Repackaging them again and again has not worked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
