2yr AC CS

[Tonyg 14]

Just thought I would post these so others can have an idea what it can look like after a couple of years. I just happen to be across the street at another customer so I walked over to see how it was holding up. To me it is always helpful to know what to expect so I can manage expectations. This was a small deck and fence I did 25months ago which was stripped/sanded/stained with Armstrong Clark Cedar Semi.

Willis Deck 4.pdf

Edited May 22, 2012 by Tonyg

[Tonyg 14]

Same project with the fence

Willis Fence 3.pdf

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Thats great work

[Tonyg 14]

Thats great work

Thanks Ron. It's not much of a deck but I was pleased at how the stain was holding up.

[plainpainter 217]

I know from taking a lot of pictures - that deck probably looks better in a photo than it does in real life. Woodtux looked like that after 4 years. Heck, even timberoil looks better than that after 3 years. At least you don't have to strip it - that stain could probably be maintained

[Tonyg 14]

I know from taking a lot of pictures - that deck probably looks better in a photo than it does in real life. Woodtux looked like that after 4 years. Heck, even timberoil looks better than that after 3 years. At least you don't have to strip it - that stain could probably be maintained

You're kidding right? Even with your anti-Armstrong Clark crusade, and a penchant for the obscure, this is a lame brain statement. Because this deck looks good at this point in time it must be smoke and mirrors, camera angle, or the way light interacts with the digital processors. Then you say that timber oil looks better after 3yrs? Please show me pictures (assuming the pics are not distorted by the digital camera) So now you're promoting ESI instead of knocking their products so you can tear down another product?

The point of my original post was to show what a 2nd year deck can look like compared to those great looking pics we all have of a newly restored deck. Your zeal against the AC stains has gone beyond product research and into this obsession that's seems very similar to past years where mud was slinging at ESI. Personally I like the way Rick handles the stain issue - I use Ready Seal because it has worked great for me - rather than trashing every other product on the market.

I use Benjamin Moore paints, drive a Ford van, and use Armstrong Clark stains. These are preferences that work for me in my business. I will try not to say that Sherwin Williams, Chevy, and Ready Seal are trash and anyone who chooses them are using inferior products that will ruin your customers and your business. Enough already - try a more balanced approach.

[bigchaz 157]

Looks great Tony, you can see it gets the heavy sun and still holding lot of pigment on the wood. No graying at all. If you get the maintenance job on it, you'll love how easy it recoats. I haven't been good at pushing maintenance but we've done some going on 3 years and it hardly takes any stain at all since that oil is still in the wood if you don't strip it. Really finishes up great on repeat applications

[AAPaint 14]

Looks good to me. It's certainly lightened up over the past 2 years, but still, no graying, which means the stain is doing it's job of protecting the wood. I would say this is exactly the desired result.

[plainpainter 217]

Here is a photo Scott Paul posted on his own deck of TWP 1515 at the 20 month mark, it may be 5 months less of weathering - but to my eyes looks worlds better.

[Tonyg 14]

Here is a photo Scott Paul posted on his own deck of TWP 1515 at the 20 month mark, it may be 5 months less of weathering - but to my eyes looks worlds better.

Well, my first question would have to be is that really what it looks like or is that just the way the picture makes it look? The picture looks great but you've probably taken more pictures than I so you can tell when they look different in person. I have never used the timber oils before but I was under the impression it was similar to a toner. Is the TWP 1515 the same as the timber oil and how does your 3yr timber oil deck look compared to this TWP?

I offered the TWP to a large deck last year and would have been happy to use it but the customer chose an AC semi-solid. I was going to try the 500 (?) series but I believe that is the one that was changed/discontinued. I also think it is smart to use more than one stain line as I don't believe there is a one-fits-all product. Scott carries multiple products because there is a market to sell to for multiple products and as contractors I think having options in addition to our primary products is smart as well.

[RPetry 564]

Tony,

Do not beat your head against a wall. Daniel has proven himself over many years as a misanthrope. My best advice is to just ignore him.

[plainpainter 217]

My gripe isn't so much aimed at the semisolids line of A.C. I think their performance can be decent, especially on Mahogany. It's a good thing you didn't go with the 500 series of TWP. I tried that stain, and it was discontinued for a good reason. It never dries - fortunately I put it on a really dried out deck, so it was able to soak in enough. I have looked at the photos of timberoil, but I have to make sure the time stamps are right and exactly when I applied the stain. The initial application photos are on another computer.

TWP 1515 is not the same league as timberoil - timber oil is most like readyseal. My timberoil pics look probably worse, but I'll have to put them together and let you judge. But I noticed at the time the photos always made the stain look better than in real life. And timberoil always turned black with mildew. But they aren't toners, they do have tons of trans-oxide pigments that put them into the semi-trans line.

BTW - TWP 1500 series is the replacement for the 500 series. I believe in having several products as well, these pictures are from decks I did 13 months ago - taken a couple weeks ago. This is when I really began to realize the failures I was having. The pressure treated is Defy Extreme in Cedar, the Fir deck is A.C. cedar toner. I did alter the A.C. to promote better results - I thinned it 25% to promote better penetration, as Fir is considered a hardwood. I added a couple of ounces per gallon of jap drier to promote it to set up faster and lock everything down, and an ounce bottle of M-1 Mildewcide to each gallon. Well to each 3/4 gallon, as the final gallon was 3/4 original A.C. stain and 1/4 extra mineral spirits. See the results for yourself. The corner is where the customer tried a bleach cleaner to see what it would do. I honestly don't know what to do with this job/customer. Still trying to figure out the next steps to rectify the situation.

[bigchaz 157]

I would never use an AC toner on hardwoods, of course it didn't last. That's why they have hardwood formula Mahogany and Amber stain

[plainpainter 217]

Why shouldn't it last? What's your rationale? The deck is under trees and hardly gets much direct sunlight - so why should the trans-oxide pigments burn up? Is Mahogany and Amber truly a different formulation? From what I understood, they're only color changes - but the basic makeup of the stain is no different. And the failure as you can tell is from going black, mildew ate right through the stain and coughed it right off the deck. Understand I put a full 1 oz bottle of M-1 mildewcide into every gallon of thinned stain. This is just one example. I have second hand reports of decks I never had a chance to visit or was already redone - but the feedback was never good. And the remainder of the work I have been able to see was very disappointing at best. So-so results at best on pressure treated with the semisolid line, somewhat acceptable results on mahogany with the semitransparents. Mildew is a severe problem with every deck I saw, and the stain would strip off way before I was able to kill the mildew. Even ESI's timberoil would clean up relatively well.

[plainpainter 217]

BTW - l love how everyone trashes on waterborne products such as Defy. That pressure treated deck I did with Defy - I seriously couldn't tell it from when it was first done. I'll keep track of it as time goes on, but not one shred of mildew or peeling. I'd probably not choose the cedar color for the future, as it's a bit orangey for my tastes - but they have a more pleasant 'pine' tone that I would be proud to offer.

[plainpainter 217]

Tony, this is my front porch at the 4 month mark. Notice how nice the finish is where the mat layed down. Look how bad the mildew is on the remainder. Look at the top board - you can

see an area between areas of mildew, notice how the pigment is totally gone from the wood. This was no simple surface mildew that a 2 cups of bleach per gallon of water could clean up.

By the time I got the mix strong enough to kill the mildew - this finish was totally stripped off the wood. This happened twice in a row to this front porch, died at the 4 month mark. Then

I gave it a finale bleach strip and have left it ever since. The wood is greyed out - but no mildew.

[RPetry 564]

... I gave it a finale bleach strip and have left it ever since. ...

The words "bleach" and "strip" when it comes to exterior wood do not belong in the same sentence. Unless you are in some strange wood restoration performing arts, the correct word is "final".

[plainpainter 217]

My intention was not to strip it with bleach, Rick. I've never seen a stain you could strip with bleach unless it was on it's final legs and 6+ years old. My intention was to clean the mildew, and in the process when I was done, I noticed a 100% removal of the stain. That's when Istarted to learned that this stain had very little tolerance for being cleaned - I ruined a customers one year old finish on Mahogany as well and had to restain much of it for free to keep that customer happy. I think another customer must have cleaned their own deck with some store bought bleach/soap product and killed their finish as well.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

Very odd. I had my helper clean my ipe' deck with a 1.5% bleach/soap solution late March and apply another "coat" of AC mahogany. And it is a coating, due to the linseed oil. No problem, a fair amount of pigment was left after a year, and this is ipe'. It will be good to go for another year.

At least with AC mahogany, it is a good stain. The vertical PT spindles and lattice did not need any servicing, but I like to keep my wife happy.

Talking with Diamond Jim, here in NJ we do not get the mold/mildew problems that you seem to experience further North and East. I've got an AC Rustic Brown cedar job that has held up very well for the past 3 years. Including T&G fascia boards embedded in the ground. Go figure.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

BTW - l love how everyone trashes on waterborne products such as Defy. That pressure treated deck I did with Defy - I seriously couldn't tell it from when it was first done. I'll keep track of it as time goes on, but not one shred of mildew or peeling. I'd probably not choose the cedar color for the future, as it's a bit orangey for my tastes - but they have a more pleasant 'pine' tone that I would be proud to offer.

Good to know but our experience with the epoxy fortified version was not as good.

It was on a log home and we had to strip the west side and further sand it because of the blue stain it left in the wood afterwards.

Rod!~

[plainpainter 217]

Daniel,

Very odd. I had my helper clean my ipe' deck with a 1.5% bleach/soap solution late March and apply another "coat" of AC mahogany. And it is a coating, due to the linseed oil. No problem, a fair amount of pigment was left after a year, and this is ipe'. It will be good to go for another year.

At least with AC mahogany, it is a good stain. The vertical PT spindles and lattice did not need any servicing, but I like to keep my wife happy.

Talking with Diamond Jim, here in NJ we do not get the mold/mildew problems that you seem to experience further North and East. I've got an AC Rustic Brown cedar job that has held up very well for the past 3 years. Including T&G fascia boards embedded in the ground. Go figure.

It's not just mildew issues, I had some hardwood customer - not sure what the species was, could have been ipe - whose deck I stained with a rustic brown and sierra redwood blend that looks a lot like that new Mahogany color. And that was the year we had over 100 inches of snow, but still 9 months later he said the entire deck was all white. Now he never gave me a chance to look at it and see for myself before he let his uncle restain it. But I'd assume that meant there was no pigment left. And that stain was lambswooled spread out - no chance of over application.

Don't get me wrong - the stuff is beautiful when it goes down - it's just soon after that I don't like it. Not to mention I was in the shed looking through all my cans of stain - and noticed a color I haven't used on a customers deck 2 years this coming september. And the stain on the top of the can is still really goobery - most stains I would have used in the past would have been rock hard by now.

[plainpainter 217]

Good to know but our experience with the epoxy fortified version was not as good.

It was on a log home and we had to strip the west side and further sand it because of the blue stain it left in the wood afterwards.

Rod!~

One year old Defy on pressure treated, Rod. I wish all my work looked this good.