Land of Nuts & Fruits

[Jon 533]

Whatever your inner feelings are about people California has proven you can be a FRUIT, popular, rich and somehow find a way to pay off the jury and walk out a free molester.

Sorry but my personal feelings are he is 100% guilty.

Face it folks, for years he pays off parents with up to $500,000 to keep quite about what he does to their little boys and it is a known fact yet this nutty jury says NOT QUILTY.

How much did his people pay each jury member and how did they get to them is the bigger question.

Agree or disagree my opinion is jacko is a molester. I could live with him being a homo but to pick on little boys or in some molesters cases little girls goes against my live and let live attitude.

Someone needs to make a eunuch out of him.

(If Beth or others feel I should be removed because I spoke my mind freely here so be it.)

[JFife 14]

Doing something morally wrong doesn't equate to doing something criminally wrong.....a hundred mil. is one heck of a penalty for a lapse in judgement, and it being with a psycho broad that self-medicates her "rape" by sleeping with three other guys in the following days.....I'd hate for every moral indiscretion I have ever (or will ever) make to have that kind of a financial backlash for me......I don't think others should be able to financially gain from moral mistakes a rich guy makes........to think, this skank will never have to work again and will be extremely wealthy all because she has no consideration for others (taxpayers, Kobe, family, friends) and is basically scum, this is how the legal system works, makes me sick

[Celeste 341]

Well, while everyone is pounding our legal system and our country's questionable morality, let me thump the Bible for a minute. If people practiced living the way God had intended, none of us would be having this conversation.....but we can't teach this in school? Go figure.

Back off the pulpit :)

Celeste

[JFife 14]

Celeste,

I am a Christian, actually a rather conservative one that still makes mistakes. I believe sin has a way of making you pay---whether it be the psychological effects of sexual immorality, the character effects of lying, or the effects any of these acts will have on your loved ones. You pay, no doubt. I still don't think others should financially gain from it though.

....this'll ruffle feathers, but I am TOTALLY for separation of church and state. If ethics are taught and discussed that is one thing, but I wouldn't want my kids (if i had any) learning Biblical lessons from their math teacher. And if you think this is an amp'd up topic right now, imagine what it would be like if kids got Bible lessons?? "and Jesus said,"......oops, here come the Jewish parents, "only the first five books of the OT!!" they scream. Christmas, Easter, you lose the conservative christians that point out there is not scriptural grounds for the "exact" dates, and you lose the Jehovah Witnesses. Then the Penecostal kid catches the Holy Spirit in the middle of class and is writhing on the floor....the Catholic kid tries to excise the Penecostal's demon because he's never seen anything like this......extreme, but this would be the slippery slope we'd go down. Let kids learn math and english in school, and save the Bible for home and church. Anyone agree?:)

[Celeste 341]

I believe that Bible studies should be taught by appropriately educated teachers - not math teachers and that they should be an ELECTIVE, not a requirement. I know as the parent of four children, I'd damn sure be happier if my children were learning things from the Bible instead of *** education. I believe that there is no reason not to allow prayer in school at specified times (gee what's the harm of saying grace?) or at the beginning of a sports event.

Bottom line is that we are failing as the village raising the children - think of what tragedies could have been avoided had "Thou shalt not kill" been followed at Columbine.

Celeste

[acidburn 14]

Well, while everyone is pounding our legal system and our country's questionable morality, let me thump the Bible for a minute. If people practiced living the way God had intended, none of us would be having this conversation.....but we can't teach this in school? Go figure.

Back off the pulpit :)

Celeste

AMEN!! Sister.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I am TOTALLY for separation of church and state.

So am I. Our founding fathers were brilliant in their vision where this separation is concerned. For one thing, religion is a very personal thing, and not something I would want any form of government regulating or teaching. It is far more significant to me, to be able to worship in the way that suits me best personally.

I also feel this has helped to keep us out of nasty religious wars.

Beth

p.s. there are plenty of wonderful private schools with religious affiliations.

[JFife 14]

Celeste

Well, I cannot figure out how to just pull out specific quotes.....

APPROPRIATELY EDUCATED, by whom?? And exactly which denominations do think are going to agree on this appropriate education??

ELECTIVE, and your well-behaved kids and the other kids from Carolina Southern Baptist will be there, and not the ones you think need the thumpin'

*** EDUCATION, necessary, parents either don't or do a horrible job on this one. Too embarrassing for the kids and parents, and what comes out is, "it is WRONG, don't do it or you'll be punished and won't ever get to go out again,"

PRAYER, why do you need a special time?? Why should I as a taxpayer have to spend more to keep the lights on at the school an extra five minutes a day so the Muslim kid can face whichever direction it is and pray to Allah??

[PLD 14]

I believe that Bible studies should be taught by appropriately educated teachers - not math teachers and that they should be an ELECTIVE, not a requirement.

I agree but from a different perspective. I would hate to see the Book of Mormon taught by the uneducated. It is simply complex for a non-practicioner to try and convey to our children. I however, would like to see it as a requirement for all children. If they understood more about it, the world would be a better place for all.

I believe that there is no reason not to allow prayer in school at specified times (gee what's the harm of saying grace?) or at the beginning of a sports event.

Must be different in the Carolinas from Georgia. It's been awhile since I graduated, but I never had anyone here stop me from saying grace over my meal.

[Celeste 341]

The Bible can be taught interdenominationally (is that a word?) The Bible - what it says, not interpretations. Just the 10 Commandments for pete's sake...not full blown A-Z.

I'm afraid I've sent this thread a little left of center. My only point earlier is that there are laws set out that are not followed, not by society, not by schools, parents, etc... If His laws were just mentioned, things may be different.

Celeste

P.S. No one has ever stopped me from saying Grace over my meal either, but I remember in the private school I attended, we did it as a class before eating.

[PLD 14]

The Bible can be taught interdenominationally [...] what it says

Yes, but it cannot be taught inter-faith. Mormons do not use your bible, nor do Jews, or Muslims, Wiccans, or Pagans.

The Bible - what it says, not interpretations. Just the 10 Commandments for pete's sake...not full blown A-Z.

To which I would respond; Why not the Torah? Or the Qur'an? All three possess the ten comandments. And all three have two nearly identical commandments:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

10. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

All three disagree on #1 with respect to who "God/me" is. And, all three disagree on #10 regarding which day is the sabbath.

For example: You are as public school teacher instructing an inter-faith audience on commandment #1 and the following question arises "Ok, teacher. I get it. No other gods. But who is the God that I must place highest?" How do you answer? Yahweh, Jehova, Allah, Jesus, Buddah, Zeus? If you answer at all, you are a public employee establishing a given religion as "right" If you answer, "whoever you choose it to be" what is the point of the lecture? After all, "thou shalt have no other gods before whoever you choose it to be" is not a commandment. It is a weak suggestion at best.

I'm afraid I've sent this thread a little left of center. My only point earlier is that there are laws set out that are not followed, not by society, not by schools, parents, etc... If His laws were just mentioned, things may be different.

Yes, but you, I, and parent #3 may differ on who "He" is and what "His" laws are.

I remember in the private school I attended, we did it as a class before eating.

Keyword there: private I have no problem whatsoever if a private institution chooses to stop and pray 125x/day.

For those who haven't guessed it already. I am not a Mormon. I am a Christian of southern baptist origins. But if it bothered you one second that I suggested that we read the Book of Mormon in school instead of the Bible, you should think long and hard about the merits of seperating church and state. State sponsored religion is great as long as it is your religion. It's not so much fun anymore when the government exposes your children to a religious doctrine with which you disagree.

Philip

P.S. If there are any Mormons in our audience, I meant no disrespect by singling you out. I picked on your religion only because it is well known enough to be recognized by name but has a smaller following so that the teachings of the Book of Mormon would be unfamiliar to most readers.

[PLD 14]

If people practiced living the way God had intended, none of us would be having this conversation

FWIW, you and I agree strongly on this one. I just strongly support a complete and total seperation of church and state.

Oh, and did I mention that I LOVE a good debate? :)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

APPROPRIATELY EDUCATED, by whom?? And exactly which denominations do think are going to agree on this appropriate education??

ELECTIVE, and your well-behaved kids and the other kids from Carolina Southern Baptist will be there, and not the ones you think need the thumpin'

*** EDUCATION, necessary, parents either don't or do a horrible job on this one. Too embarrassing for the kids and parents, and what comes out is, "it is WRONG, don't do it or you'll be punished and won't ever get to go out again,"

Jon, you click the quote button to get the first bracket, then paste your text in, then click the quote button again to close the bracket. Hope this helps...

APPROPRIATELY EDUCATED - even within the same church, people's views on religion and what is taught will vary. If those who worship in the same church are not always on the same page, how are you going to get those who have different beliefs to see the point of view taught in school? What if what is being taugh is NOT the same as your belief system? I'll be you are against it then. It's a nice idea, provided that what is taught is your belief system. Problem is, we all have our own set of beliefs.

ELECTIVE - I agree. I don't think this is the answer to reaching the problem kids, but I think the parents are the key.

*** EDUCATION - better educated than uneducated, this is no exception. Consider the consequences of not educating our children on this topic.

Beth

[Celeste 341]

ELECTIVE - I agree. I don't think this is the answer to reaching the problem kids, but I think the parents are the key.

*** EDUCATION - better educated than uneducated, this is no exception. Consider the consequences of not educating our children on this topic.

Beth

Parents are failing all over this world....again, look at Columbine. And looking at the welfare system, one can see how education is working on *** education......Have babies, collect check. Irregardless of what religion one chooses, choosing to live that way inevitably would keep you out of trouble more so than in it.

I'm done.

Celeste

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I would rather they know about STD's. I would rather they understand what their bodies are going thru as they mature. Teaching them to abstain, is something I think a parent should do. Teaching the what and the how of the human reproductive system is important. It fits in with biology 101. This is how a female body works, this is how a male body works. These are your STD's and this is what they can do to you - some can kill you. It's not like they break out the kama sutra or anything....at least not in Maryland. Here is it pretty much an extension of Health 101, and Biology 101. They also learn nutrition, and the basics of caring for their bodies - blood pressure, cholesterol, etc., good excersise....

Beth

p.s. the columbine kids (shooters) needed professional mental help, and the parents were just blind to the kids goings ons.

[Scott Stone 604]

Yes, but it cannot be taught inter-faith. Mormons do not use your bible, nor do Jews, or Muslims, Wiccans, or Pagans.

To which I would respond; Why not the Torah? Or the Qur'an? All three possess the ten comandments. And all three have two nearly identical commandments:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

10. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

All three disagree on #1 with respect to who "God/me" is. And, all three disagree on #10 regarding which day is the sabbath.

For example: You are as public school teacher instructing an inter-faith audience on commandment #1 and the following question arises "Ok, teacher. I get it. No other gods. But who is the God that I must place highest?" How do you answer? Yahweh, Jehova, Allah, Jesus, Buddah, Zeus? If you answer at all, you are a public employee establishing a given religion as "right" If you answer, "whoever you choose it to be" what is the point of the lecture? After all, "thou shalt have no other gods before whoever you choose it to be" is not a commandment. It is a weak suggestion at best.

Yes, but you, I, and parent #3 may differ on who "He" is and what "His" laws are.

Keyword there: private I have no problem whatsoever if a private institution chooses to stop and pray 125x/day.

For those who haven't guessed it already. I am not a Mormon. I am a Christian of southern baptist origins. But if it bothered you one second that I suggested that we read the Book of Mormon in school instead of the Bible, you should think long and hard about the merits of seperating church and state. State sponsored religion is great as long as it is your religion. It's not so much fun anymore when the government exposes your children to a religious doctrine with which you disagree.

Philip

P.S. If there are any Mormons in our audience, I meant no disrespect by singling you out. I picked on your religion only because it is well known enough to be recognized by name but has a smaller following so that the teachings of the Book of Mormon would be unfamiliar to most readers.

You knew that there had to be one out there, and I am it. I am Mormon and have been all of my life. Just to clarify a few things.

1. Mormons do use the Bible and believe in it. We also believe that men are frail and that in all of the translations that have taken place, many by Hand writing before the Gutenberg press, the Bible had a potential to be mistranslated, or incorrectly copied. Some of it may have been intentional and some may not, but stuff happens.

2. I would not want the Book of Mormon or the Bible taught in School. The potential for abuses by someone that does not believe in either book would be considerable. I think that it is most appropriately taught in the home, and at the church of your choice, with whatever interpretation that a person feels comfortable with. I may not like your interpretation, but you do have a right to believe what you want.

3. Many other religions do believe in the Bible, or at least portions of it. The Muslims and Jews both believe in the old testament. The Wiccans and Pagans do not believe in any of it, but have developped their own belief system. I don't agree with it, but I respect my friends (and yes I do have some) that believe this way, as well as those that are Catholic, Methodist and Southern Baptist, etc.

4. I also believe that *** Education should be taught in the home, according to the belief systems of the family. Unfortunately, many parents do not take this responsibility seriously. Then they wonder how come little Junior, and his girlfriend are expecting a baby.

Just thought that I should throw in my two cents.

Scott Stone

[Don Phelps 85]

You knew that there had to be one out there, and I am it. I am Mormon and have been all of my life. Just to clarify a few things.

1. Mormons do use the Bible and believe in it. We also believe that men are frail and that in all of the translations that have taken place, many by Hand writing before the Gutenberg press, the Bible had a potential to be mistranslated, or incorrectly copied. Some of it may have been intentional and some may not, but stuff happens.

2. I would not want the Book of Mormon or the Bible taught in School. The potential for abuses by someone that does not believe in either book would be considerable. I think that it is most appropriately taught in the home, and at the church of your choice, with whatever interpretation that a person feels comfortable with. I may not like your interpretation, but you do have a right to believe what you want.

3. Many other religions do believe in the Bible, or at least portions of it. The Muslims and Jews both believe in the old testament. The Wiccans and Pagans do not believe in any of it, but have developped their own belief system. I don't agree with it, but I respect my friends (and yes I do have some) that believe this way, as well as those that are Catholic, Methodist and Southern Baptist, etc.

4. I also believe that *** Education should be taught in the home, according to the belief systems of the family. Unfortunately, many parents do not take this responsibility seriously. Then they wonder how come little Junior, and his girlfriend are expecting a baby.

Just thought that I should throw in my two cents.

Scott Stone

That's the most lucid thing I've ever read from you.....Amen!

Respect of others religious beliefs seems to be a huge problem for many. They tend to adopt the 'My way or no way' approach. Fundamentally everyone should have the right to believe in whatever they choose as long as they don't force it on others to believe in or abide by. Otherwise what's the point in having your own life to live?

My opinion, for what it's worth!

[StainlessDeal 16]

Don, Scott, Phil, I am impressed and heartened by this thread and the way you disagreed with Celeste (Whom I respect very much). I think that religion is the most personal part of anybody's life and I pity those who never have any positive exposure to it and anybody who can't countenance differences of opinion concerning it. As a matter of faith, religion is here to give answers that cannot be explained rationally. This being true, we will never have a definitive answer for any but ourselves concerning which religion is 'best'. This leads me to the conclusion that we must not allow any religion to enter into state institutions where any people might feel the considerable coercive power groups can exert, even without intending to. Any person who wishes to pray in school may do so whenever they may feel is appropriate. If this is not true where you live, somebody in power is misreading much law. The caveat is that one person's (or group's) praying must not disrupt the normal routine. There is no provision for led prayer or prayer time. I know that when I was in public school and college I prayed often and hard. Especially immediately before, during, and after testing. I'm not joking. If people lived the way most religions require, we would probably live in a better world. This also is no joke, but most of the people I've met who ascribe to no religion and even those I know who eschew religion altogether, require ethical behavior of those with whom they associate. My ethics are bound in the Protestant Christianity I was raised to know. I know of no large religion whose moral and ethical standards are so far removed from mine that I find it impossible to respect those standards. I know I couldn't happily live in a fundamentalist society based in any religion.

[Celeste 341]

Well, I said I was done but our local news has prompted one last remark about what is being taught in schools today - We have a "Safe Surrender" law in our state - any mother "in crisis" can abandon their newborn babies up to 7 days old at any Law enforcement, Fire Dept or hospital without ANY question or repurcussion. I get this and it's fine, better there than a dumpster HOWEVER, some stupid teenager didn't get the memo with all the rules and left her child in a parking lot of a Pregnancy Crisis Center this morning - when they were closed. The baby was found and is recovering, however, now the deal is to teach IN SCHOOL that you, after being unable to abstain or wait long enough for the rain coat to get put on, can legally abandon your newborn baby!!!!

My only point I was trying to make in this thread - and apparently rather badly - is that if society followed the rules of their religions, whatever religion is chosen - ALOT OF THE CRAP TODAY WOULD PROBABLY NOT BE HAPPENING! There are far too many things being taken on by our school system as part of their responsibility that shouldn't be there. If proper morality shouldn't be taught, then there's no reason for the schools to be teaching the measures to be immoral. So fine, keep religion out of schools - but damn don't teach my 12 year old to go to her Guidance Counselor who can take her to an abortion clinic without my knowledge because she's knocked up since she missed the part of the class that taught about condoms.

[racechaser 64]

The founding father's never intended for the "separation of church and state" as it is trying to be litigated today in the courts. This is a fallacy. There was no separation of church and state in the constitution, Bill of Rights or the Declaration of Independence.

The intent was to not have a state sponsored religion as in the church of England.The government wanted to stay out of the religion business as it was founded.

Now if these men wanted GOD out of public eye and off Government property why does the senate,supreme court and the house ALL open in prayer. Why does the President openly place his hand on the Bible to be sworn in? Now if a muslim ever gets elected he could place his hand on the Quo'ran and all would still be well because that is his belief. When someone takes the witness stand he places his hand on the bible and makes his vow to tell the truth "so help me God". Looked at any of your money lately?

Every state constitution that was written to declare the allegiance to the new nation (on the east Coast for sure) I PROMISE YOU mentions God and asks for his protection in their new government.

My local parish (county, not a catholic church) is being bombarded with lawsuits from the ACLU because our school board opens up with a prayer. Our sports events open with a prayer. Then we lost that so we had a moment of silence....... Now we find that that is wrong also because we could still be praying.

I don't want organized religion taught in school. I just want to be allowed pray before a football game, my leaders pray to their god, even if it's not my God, before decisions are made that affect everyone.

Why does what one person feel offends them need to be carried out on everyone else. Now 99.9999999% of the people are offended or inconvenienced by the the new rule, So does it go back the old way? No!! Example, God is taken out of the pledge so another nutcase Michael in California can be happy. While the whole country is up in arms. Thank the Lord that never flew. Of course the Supreme Court gets to pray for wisdom before their session. Maybe that's why they saw the issue as silly.

We are slowly litigating God out of school and government and then publicly wonder why he would allow things like school shootings and alll the horrible things our children go through to happen.When we want him gone he will respect our wishes. Better be sure that's what you want. It will only get WORSE!!!!

Scott

[JFife 14]

Racechaser,

Without getting theological, I'll lightly touch on your last paragraph......regarding what God allows or doesn't allow, i personally don't feel that happens. Could he change courses of events?? Sure. Does he?? I don't think so. What I am saying, I don't think if we still had the Ten Commandments on the wall at Columbine that God would have stopped those boys from killing their fellow students. Everyone likes to say the world is coming to an end because of all the bad things that are happening.....how could any God allow it to keep going?? TV shows are SO dirty, and kids have *** and kill people, and little girls have abortions....

For any that think these things are so awful, I'd suggest reading the Bible from front to back and you'll see much worse stuff happening. Ever heard of the Romans?????

Celeste,

You said you stated your point, "rather badly", and I don't agree. You stated your point the way you see it, I don't agree and others may not agree, but it is still your point and still respectable. What you want is a good thing--people learning golden rules and to love thy neighbor, etc., but we just disagree on the how and when it should be done. I'd personally never send my kids to private school, but this is the exact reason they exist.

Pretty screwed up story about the baby. It is astounding how ignorant people can be. What is sad is that the girl didn't have anyone to ASK where to take the baby....and if I were guessing myself, I'd also have dropped it off at a Pregnancy Center. When I was in college (private,christian) I don't know how many girls had abortions, but the number would have been shocking. And then, a girl I was friends with (as well as her BF) got pregnant and carried the baby. Guess what?? Got kicked out of school. Set a bad example, and her un-christian-like behavior started the problem, and this was the punishment. I was furious. I thought that was hands-down, the worst decision I'd ever seen made. She could have taken the easy way out, but did the right thing, and got punished for it. She had one semester left of school, and I don't know if she ever finished or not. I guess what was so troubling to me was, okay, if the faculty is going to take a stand, then why allow her to ever come back, because there would have always been a reminder of her transgretion (baby)?? the point was, the school didn't want to tarnish it's repution by having a girl walking around pregnant. Made me sick, and still does,

[racechaser 64]

I don't disagree with you at all.The ten commandments posted a week before would have had no effect.But, morality taught and lived at school the last 45 years may have.

As far as God changing the course of events, he will if we ask. It will never happen if we don't fervently pray as a nation for change.If you really believe that we would never pray for loved ones or anything else.

The only reason we are still going on as a prosperous nation is because of our stance on Israel. God protects those who protect Israel he says so in the Bible.

You're right about the Old Testament look at the sin and disobedience and how he dealt with it. He purged the evil and people repented and put God back where he belonged.It's cyclical and generational with all people.

All I'm trying to point out that this is a nation formed on Christian beliefs and morality.We overcame great odds to gain our freedom.I believe it was at the hand of God that it happened. Now 200 years later we shouldn't try to reinvent what this Government stood for,FREEDOM.Freedom to pray to allah,buddha,your wiccan high priestess or Jehova.But instead we are allowing the few to dictate to the many through judicial activism.

No hard feelings with anyone here. I think this has been an interesting thread to read even if it did get off topic.

Scott