Chem Blending...Opinions Needed

[h2owizards 14]

I spoke with a local chem guy that said he had a list of mixes wth sodium metasilicate in 'em and he could mix up a brew at whatever strength I desired plus he could add sodium hypochlorite, a foaming agent, a rinse agent or anything else I needed at whatever strength I needed. Down side is that I would have to buy 120 gallons at a time but he would deliver it and fill my tank whenever I needed more. The price would be about the same as 2 barrels of Citraclean so I actually would save money in the long run. He said the shelf life would be about 6 mos. I wouldn't have to mix chems so that would also save me some time.

Any thoughts on this? I would really welcome all pros and cons for this.

Thanks

[FullBlast 14]

Sound like a good idea to me as long as the regular mix didn't change from one time to the next. Think you have certain mix and get there and it be twince as strong as it was the last time you got it, wind up ruining something. Just a down side to check on. Hey give him a try.

[JFife 14]

There are only a few reasons that you should consider doing this: 1) save a lot of money, 2) chems will work better, 3) save you a lot of headaches.

From what you said, I assume it is not saving you money. It sounds like you've knocked off another product, so yours probably won't be any better. The only plus for you that I see is that he'll deliver and fill for you, which would be nice. If you have knocked off the formula, feel free to post the recipe here to help all of us fellow contractors. Good luck with what you choose to do,

[racechaser 64]

The only thing I would consider advising you on is the ingredients.I work in chemical manufacturing. I make the world's most popular post emergent herbicide.The one thing that we are constantly tweaking are the surfactants.Each mix uses different ones.Each one produces different results.Anybody can mix up a glyphosate solution.The whole reason we are still the leader in sales is not wholly because of brand recognition. Most farmers actually see a difference.The only ingredients that need to be listed on a MSDS sheet are the hazards.You really may have no clue as to the non hazardous "inert ingredients" that are proprietary and not listed.The surfactants and soaps may play a key role in the makeup.

In short, citracleen may not be simply the ingredients on the MSDS.You may spend the money on tank full of housewash only to have something that is very ineffective and never figure out why.

If you do try it, start small.

Just my humble opinion,

Scott

[JFife 14]

well said,

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Scott makes an excellent point. There is more to making a product than just looking at a couple of the main ingredients. It takes research and time testing and evaluating, and a bit of chemical knowledge. Just one more reason to buy a premade product (contractor grade) in my opinion.

How many of us are greatful for the knowledge that vendors/suppliers have given us routinely to help us while we are in the field? So why do you want to bite the hand that feeds you, that helps you when you need help, when all these vendors are doing is trying to make a living just like you are? Sorry - but we can clearly see both sides of this - we used to sell products. I'm not a fan of trying to knock off a product just to save a few pennies, after getting hours and hours and hours of support from a vendor who was there when you needed them and helped you out as a service, making only what little profit was on the sale you brought them. I'll get off my soapbox now... :cup:

Beth :groovy3:

[Pete Marentay 14]

I would be skeptical that you could get 6 months shelf life with a bleach mix. Bleach has a short potency life, and the container must be lightproof and kept in a reasonably cool area. Sounds like you might be investing in months' worth of cleaner, and the potency (if it includes bleach) will drop off a little every day.

What Beth and Rod are saying is important. Another issue often mentioned in these discussions is the aspect of liability. If you create the recipe (along with the chem supplier) you accept liability foir the performance of the product. In this country, where people sue over coffee that is hot, we carry $1M in liabilty insurance and our suppliers carry $2M each to protect you if the product is not made properly.

I would add that buying a few weeks' worth of cleaner at a time might not be significantly more expensive if you recognize that you can't over-buy that way. You will have less waste, good costs, better cash flow, and the support of a grateful distributor who will work to help you be more profitable.

Not as easy a decision when you look at all the factors. I am prejudiced, though, because I am one of those grateful distributors!

[h2owizards 14]

All very good points but not trying make a knock off as you put it. The guy has already said the same thing about the suffuctants and is supposed to be bringing some samples for us to test and figure the right mix...for how I want it, not another brand. I agree whole heartedly with Rod and Beth but I personally have never even used Citraclean...was just using it for a price example. The stuff I get actually cost $225 for a 55 gal. drum. So, yes it would save me money. Still, y'all did make some very good points and I will consider all of them b4 making a decision. Thanks for your input.

[JFife 14]

I say try their sample and see what happens. I would buy chems from someone else up to a certain point--and once you are generating a certain amount of work, you should consider making your own to save money. On small quantities, you'd be better off buying from someone else.

Pete's point about liability is a significant concern, so figure that out if you have employees. This has been discussed in the past, and Beth and I respectfully agree to disagree. An emotional argument just doesn't cut it for me--besides, the 100 or so stripper products out there are basically very similar, and each has been knocked off from the other. I doubt when Sunbrite (I use them because they do such a massive amount of work and biz) started their own chems they told a chemist, "here is a dried stain, figure something out to take it off." I am sure they went to a chemist with a jug of DeckStrip and said, "this works good, can you make something equal or better?"

I remember from a marketing class that Gillette spend about 1 billion dollars creating the SensorExcel, and once it hit the market, Schick came out with something nearly identical within a very short amount of time for a few million dollars. They let Gillette do the legwork, and knocked it off. I've heard that Wendy's does no market analysis--they just wait and see where McDonald's (lots of analysis) puts a location and they are close behind.

I guess my point is, if you have a buddy/buddy relationship with your supplier (which they'll try to create) it will be hard for you to leave them. You'll be sympathic to their cause, and try and help them as much as you can. Heck, I know established contractors that buy re-packaged Oxalic and re-packaged Percarb for 10 times what they could buy it for at a chem supplier, all in an effort to help and support the pwashing supplier. If a guy has gone to an effort to make a product different, I'll try and use it, if it works better or is safer (like F18).

Stripped a house the other day that had five coats of Behr Liquid Rawhide (the lawsuit stuff) and the wood felt like it was coated in semi-dried strawberry jelly, and was black with mildew. There are solutions all over the country of how to tackle this---Removall, followed by cornblasting, blasted water, Meth.Clor. strippers, etc. I mixed up 12oz. Naoh with Dawn dishsoap and it was falling off with about 10 minutes of dwell. This is considered to be one of the hardest things to remove. I just try not to get caught up in the whole thing about how you "owe" your supplier to always do biz with them, etc. I think you "owe" it to your family and yourself to be as profitable as possible. If this attained by buying your chems for 10 times what it would cost you to make them, due to the support you receive, then so be it.

Still the liability is a factor to consider, so weigh that.

[PLD 14]

I would add that buying a few weeks' worth of cleaner at a time might not be significantly more expensive if you recognize that you can't over-buy that way. You will have less waste, good costs, better cash flow, and the support of a grateful distributor who will work to help you be more profitable.

Pete,

Post a recipe for a good GP housewash using only SunBrite products!

[PLD 14]

Heck, I know established contractors that buy re-packaged Oxalic and re-packaged Percarb for 10 times what they could buy it for at a chem supplier, all in an effort to help and support the pwashing supplier.

John,

I don't buy "basics" like Percarb and Oxalic from a PW distrib because 99.9% OxA is just 99.9% OxA. I just can't justify paying 50-200% more for staples in 5# quantities. Nor do I care to place orders/handle for 25 jars of XYZ. No disrespect intended to our distribs, buy my bottom line comes before yours.

That said, there is merit to supporting your local supplier. I am an amateur rocketeer, and the local hobby shops have been decimated by WalMart internet vendors (of which I was one). At first it seemed like a dream come true saving 50%. Many shops failed, but it was inconsequential in light of how much more affordable the hobby had become. That was until you really needed that essoteric part that WalMart/xyz.com didn't carry no would they every consider special ordering. And product advice? Forget it. Joe employee only gets 6bucks/hr and was in wallpaper last week.

It's a balancing act in which win-win truly is the best situation. You need to control costs. You need to keep your local vendors alive.

[Mike Williamson 198]

If you do try it, start small.

Why try it at all? All this to save a few bucks on soap? I'm too dang busy as it is without worrying about trying to copy someone's product that works. I mean, it isn't like citracleen costs $20.00/gallon or something.

If some folks would spend 1/2 the time on marketing and selling as they spend on trying to save $1.00/housewash, they'd be busier than they can imagine.

Now let me finish posting this so I can get back to trying to figure out the formula for Coca Cola...Bet I can save at least 50% on soda if I can just figure out what makes it taste that way. When I'm done, I'm going to go order all the parts I need to build my own appliances...bet I can save a few bucks on those too. :lgbonk:

[Mike Williamson 198]

I would be skeptical that you could get 6 months shelf life with a bleach mix. Bleach has a short potency life, and the container must be lightproof and kept in a reasonably cool area. Sounds like you might be investing in months' worth of cleaner, and the potency (if it includes bleach) will drop off a little every day.

Actually, there's a post here on this board by Rod that shows statistical data to the contrary...Bleach lasts quite a bit longer than many folks think.

[Don Phelps 85]

If some folks would spend 1/2 the time on marketing and selling as they spend on trying to save $1.00/housewash, they'd be busier than they can imagine.

Isn't funny how some cleaning contractors constantly whine about how 'cheap' residential customers can be, yet they're just as cheap themselves? Those seem to be the same ones that constantly slam others for having superior equipment that they deem 'overkill!' Go figure!

:lgbugeyes

[Mike Williamson 198]

Isn't funny how some cleaning contractors constantly whine about how 'cheap' residential customers can be, yet they're just as cheap themselves? Those seem to be the same ones that constantly slam others for having superior equipment that they deem 'overkill!' Go figure!

:lgbugeyes

Amen to that. :growl:

[PLD 14]

Isn't funny how some cleaning contractors constantly whine about how 'cheap' residential customers can be, yet they're just as cheap themselves?

I agree, but we're not exactly talking pennies. Citraclean is $3/gallon+ shipping on a 55gal drum ($70) for a net of about $4/gallon. The recipes I have seen here call for 2 gallons per bucket. The house wash "soap" I use is 1-2/bucket and works well. $6 may not sound like a big savings but at 4 houses/day it amounts to $500/month. And in my business, $500/month saving is worth looking into.

[Don Phelps 85]

I agree, but we're not exactly talking pennies. Citraclean is $3/gallon+ shipping on a 55gal drum ($70) for a net of about $4/gallon. The recipes I have seen here call for 2 gallons per bucket. The house wash "soap" I use is 1-2/bucket and works well. $6 may not sound like a big savings but at 4 houses/day it amounts to $500/month. And in my business, $500/month saving is worth looking into.

No further than you are from Steve Rowlett, you can drive up and check out a roundtable sometime and pick up enough chems to last you a year and not pay shipping or hazmat.

The problem with those that speak out against 'dish soap' are just like most of us that aren't chemists and they tend to think very small when talking about surfactants because of the name on the label. Dish washing detergent will sell very well if labeled as 'foaming agent' or whatever. I tend to use what works. Whether it's a home brew or purchased from a vendor, the bottom line is results.

[Mike Williamson 198]

I agree, but we're not exactly talking pennies. Citraclean is $3/gallon+ shipping on a 55gal drum ($70) for a net of about $4/gallon. The

recipes I have seen here call for 2 gallons per bucket.

At most, a gallon, if that. between 1/2 and 3/4 of a gallon per bucket of housewash is just fine. I coudn't save $500.00/month in soap...I don't use that much. Even if I cut my soap costs in 1/2 if I could find a product as good at 1/2 the cost, I might save $100.00/month. Just not worth my worrying about and spending hours trying to find a solution.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

It's always going to be a topic for discussion...but really, it comes down to a company looking for a way to reduce cost and increase profits. Sometimes you can do this, sometimes you can't. It depends on what you are going to cut and the effect it will have on the company.

We would not trade premade contractor grade chems for a bunch of raw materials in the wood care department. Our results are consistant and the products we use work as advertised through various scenarios.

And yes, liability does matter. By the way, don't forget that at some point if you get all your own raws and make your own brew, you need to come up with your own MSDS sheets as well to keep in the truck with the brew.

Beth :cup: :sunshine: :groovy3: :dancing:

[PLD 14]

No further than you are from Steve Rowlett, you can drive up and check out a roundtable sometime and pick up enough chems to last you a year and not pay shipping or hazmat.

The problem with those that speak out against 'dish soap' are just like most of us that aren't chemists and they tend to think very small when talking about surfactants because of the name on the label. Dish washing detergent will sell very well if labeled as 'foaming agent' or whatever. I tend to use what works. Whether it's a home brew or purchased from a vendor, the bottom line is results.

I need to do just that. It's about 4 hours for me. As for picking up a years supply, that's not going to happen unless he finances... Actually, that's not true but I do need to try some other forumlas just to see if the increase of decrease productivity.

[PLD 14]

At most, a gallon, if that. between 1/2 and 3/4 of a gallon per bucket of housewash is just fine. I coudn't save $500.00/month in soap...I don't use that much. Even if I cut my soap costs in 1/2 if I could find a product as good at 1/2 the cost, I might save $100.00/month. Just not worth my worrying about and spending hours trying to find a solution.

You must be using a 5 gal bucket. I use a 15 so adjust accordingly.

I agree that $100/mo is trivial in the big picture. But, I'm doing 2-3/day at one 15 gallon "bucket" each. How does that work out in $/day for citriclean? I'm presently at $5/day for my present soap (soap only).

[Mike Williamson 198]

You must be using a 5 gal bucket. I use a 15 so adjust accordingly.

I agree that $100/mo is trivial in the big picture. But, I'm doing 2-3/day at one 15 gallon "bucket" each. How does that work out in $/day for citriclean? I'm presently at $5/day for my present soap (soap only).

How big are these houses??? 15 gallons of mix per HOUSE??? Wow. With the downstreamer, I'm using about 5. With the Xjet, it was 10 at the most, for a typical ranch style 2500sf house.

Doing three houses/day, I'd spend maybe $8.00/day in soap. $40.00/week, $160.00/month.

If your present soap works well, why change? If not, maybe you're getting what you're paying for. :)

[PLD 14]

How big are these houses??? 15 gallons of mix per HOUSE??? Wow. With the downstreamer, I'm using about 5. With the Xjet, it was 10 at the most, for a typical ranch style 2500sf house.

Doing three houses/day, I'd spend maybe $8.00/day in soap. $40.00/week, $160.00/month.

If your present soap works well, why change? If not, maybe you're getting what you're paying for. :)

I think we have a semantics issue regarding usage. I use 3 gals 12.5%, 1-2 qts of soap from a local supplier and the balance water. That yields 2.5% in the bucket. Figure in 1:2 through the xjet and you get a TTW ratio of 0.833%

Why consider a change? Simple. Because of comments like yours (and others). I am pleased with my results, but there are a significant amount of kudos being awarded here to e-plus and citraclean.

My questions concern some of the statements about the usage of these two products. I have heard 2-3gal per "bucket" (inc'l Steve's site) and $3.00 per gallon mentioned frequently. If correct, that takes me from $8/day ($166/mo) to $27/day ($594/mo). Hence, my financial issue is not one of cutting my $8/day in half as mentioned earlier, but rather one of not raising them by a factor of 350%

I'm totally on board with spending money to get better results, but it had better be a heck of alot better to justify that kind of jump.

Since we've gone this far, can someone shed some light on usage emulsifier plus? I inherited an unopened 40# box with my new rig and don't even know where to start with it. That is one criticism I have of both e-spec and rowlett. Docs on the site regarding product usage are non-existent and e-spec doesn't even list prices. I've sent e-spec an email w/o response. Yes, I know I can pick up the phone, but I'd prefer to hear from an end user.

Also, anyone near fayetteville wanna sell me a couple (3-5) of gallons of citraclean? I'll even bring my own bucket. I just want to give it a try w/o paying for product, shipping, hazmat, etc.

[tropical wave 22]

Docs on the site regarding product usage are non-existent and e-spec doesn't even list prices. I've sent e-spec an email w/o response.

QUOTE]

Phil, never used the e-spec stuff that you got with the rig, but since I had their catalog next to the computer, the 40 lbs is sold for $79.95....

[Mike Williamson 198]

I think we have a semantics issue regarding usage. I use 3 gals 12.5%, 1-2 qts of soap from a local supplier and the balance water. That yields 2.5% in the bucket. Figure in 1:2 through the xjet and you get a TTW ratio of 0.833%

Either way, 15 gallons of mix seems an awful lot. That's all.

And it's 1:2.2 through the Xjet. You seem awfully concerned with exact ratios, etc, so I though you'd want to have the correct Xjet ratio. :)

My questions concern some of the statements about the usage of these two products. I have heard 2-3gal per "bucket" (inc'l Steve's site)

As much time as I've spent on Steve's board, and elsewhere, I've never seen anyone mention using 2-3 gallons of citracleen per bucket. I think you're confusing someone's usage of chlorine with their usage of citracleen. Were someone on Steve's board to say they were using 2-3 gallons of soap per 5 gallons, there would be several posts questioning the overusage of soap and mentioning the correct usage.