RS redwood only formula on redwood deck

[RPetry 564]

Advice needed. Am working on a 25 yr. old redwood deck, constructed of 2x4's, that had been neglected over the yrs. Cleaned normally with sodium percarb and brightened with citric acid. Spot sanded some areas and the entire surfaced has been buffed with defelting pads.

Put down three separate Ready Seal color samples and the tannin in the wood immediately came to the surface, coloring the wood nearly black in each case and making the samples nearly indistinguishable. Ok, best go with the Ready Seal redwood only formula to minimize tannin bleed.

Problem is that I have never applied the redwood only formula. With regular RS and softwoods, I normally spray with a Pump Tek unit, with one heavy coat on the vertical wood and two on the horizontals, back brushing the second application with a large bristle brush.

Anyone have any tips on application? I understand the redwood formula is subject to lap marks. One or two stain applications? Wet on wet or let the first one dry before hitting the wood again? Back brush on all staining?

The deck is full southern exposure and with the weather remaining brutally hot and sunny here for the next week, I'm wary of any flashing problem. Also, the wood is extremely dry and will accept a lot of stain.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Celeste 341]

Have no idea what to suggest for using the Redwood only product, however, in another thread, several folks suggested laying a tarp over the deck prior to staining in order to cool the surface temp down. We are starting to consider "tenting" some of the decks we're doing (clip a king size white sheet to the roof edge or gutter and the other side to the hand rails. Our deck surfaces are hellish hot down here so I feel your flashing pain!

I'd call Pierce Fitchett on the application issues if no one on the board voices advise :)

Celeste

[James 625]

Just do 3 boards at a time- dont let an area dry then go back over- If its very hot out this stuff dry's fast- Redwood doesn't take much product. You can do the whole deck then do the second coat. It will be dry.

[RPetry 564]

James,

Thanks. I'm not sure what you mean by "- dont let an area dry then go back over- ". Kind of like a quick wet on wet coat? A second coat when dry makes sense. I assume back brushing all stain?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick,

I agree with Jim on just doing a few boards at a time, and yes it is a quick wet-on-wet. This works well in many situations.

Beth

:groovy:

p.s. You have said here it is 25 years old and pretty neglected. Without photos and without knowing how much sun exposure this deck has each day, I'll venture a guess that:

1. one reason it darkened up so much on you is the amount of UV damage the deck already had. A deck can look beautiful when you clean it, and due to neglect the product will go on pretty dark.
   
2. Also since redwood is a softwood, it is more porous and will take the product a little deeper, darkening the color.
   

Add the UV damage to the fact that it is fairly absorbent and you have what you saw first hand I would think. (add to this the tannin issue as well - redwood can get very dark) Again, this is based on our own expereince with redwood, and to be real sure a photo or two might help.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Also....what product has been on there in the past??? Sometimes you will get residuals from prior applications that can add to this, down in the substrate. Looks clean when washed but you can only clean so deep.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

Attached is a photo of a floor section before cleaning. I have not yet taken any pictures after cleaning/brightening/sanding and buffing with defelting pads, but the wood came out quite nice, with different colored redwood boards standing out etc. The deck does get full sun, by 11 AM this past Thursday I was ready to pass out from the heat.

Regular RS, med. red, natural cedar, and light brown were applied as samples. The three were almost identical in color, as the tannin rose to the surface immediately on application.

Ok, lets see if I've got this. A wet on wet first application, doing a few boards at a time. Allow to dry. A second single application after drying, back brushing all stain applications. Is this right?

Thanks.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Dark colored product = dark colored pigment. Add that to dark colored wood = even darker result.

To avoid darkening you need to get past the UV damage. I don't know that you sanded the whole deck, but this is one thought. If sanding is not an option, choose a sealer with a very light pigment color. Think of it like this... if you were a kid, coloring...if you had really dark construction paper and were using dark crayons you would get a very dark picture. If you had a dark paper and chose lighter color crayons, you would get a different picture. The color of the paper (canvas) is a factor. Hope this helps.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

Did not see your 2nd post prior to responding. There was just a hint of prior stain at the top of the balustrade, underneath a wide custom "shelf" that was shaded and protected from rain. There was no tint, I'm assuming it was some kind of clear. The owner did not know of the previously appled product, but it was last serviced at least 12 yrs ago.

After cleaning, the entire deck was "sanded" with the Makita and defelting pads. RS light brown is IMO, a very light pigmented stain. The sample patch was just as dark as the other two, so I can only assume tannin bleed was the culprit.

This is why I obtained the redwood only formula from ACR. Med. red is the only color available in the redwood only formuta. I'll try a small section first on Monday to see if the redwood only formula does not turn black.

I just wanted to confirm application procedure, ie. wet on wet, followed by a second stain application after the first wet on wet has dried, back brushing all stain.

Thanks.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rod and I were discussing this, and his concern was that a prior product may still have traces in the substrate.

I would echo Celeste and call Pierce regarding applying the RS Redwood formula. We can speak for the regular RS formula, and for other things we have applied to redwood, but we have not used RS Redwood formula.

If we were sealing this with one of the products we normally use on redwood, we would apply wet-on-wet, with the goal being to apply what the wood will hold, without puddling - puddles lead to shiny spots.

Beth

[JFife 14]

Rick,

I've done RS Redwood Only Light Brown with beautiful results--and found it as easy to apply as regular RS. I know what you mean about the wood turning dark--i don't think it is residual stain left over or anything else, except old, porous wood that is degraded. You can sand to good wood as beth said. Now, one of the manufacturers for log products I use came out with the most brilliant product last year, it is called Afterblast. You see, when you blast wood it gets an orange peel texture, becomes extremely porous, and the stain colors go on darker than you would expect. Now, since the products are waterbase, they build on top of each other. So, they came out with Afterblast, which is a clear sealer which is used as a primer coat. So basically, when you go with the pigmented stain coat, you are sealing Afterblast, as opposed to pitted, porous wood. The colors come out even, vibrant and beautiful.

Here is what I'm wanting to test---what if you saturated this deck with RS clear and allowed it to dry, then came back the next day and stained it with a medium coat of RS tinted stain?? I remember from using RS that a second coat about 1hr later made the color better, but I wonder if you did a true saturation with clear, allowed to dry, and then went with Light Brown or something if the color would come out vibrant?? If this did work, it would solve all of my issues with RS, which is basically that it doesn't look good on anything that has aged much at all. I think I'll call Pierce and harrass him a little and see what he says.

That is the best I've got Rick. Only other thing is to try TWP, it is pigmented enough to usually "save" you on a drab-looking deck. Good luck,

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Here is what I'm wanting to test---what if you saturated this deck with RS clear and allowed it to dry, then came back the next day and stained it with a medium coat of RS tinted stain?? I remember from using RS that a second coat about 1hr later made the color better, but I wonder if you did a true saturation with clear, allowed to dry, and then went with Light Brown or something if the color would come out vibrant?? If this did work, it would solve all of my issues with RS, which is basically that it doesn't look good on anything that has aged much at all. I think I'll call Pierce and harrass him a little and see what he says.

Bingo! Worth a try. We have done this in a similar circumstance, but not on redwood. Had a client who had Western Cedar applied, and when we did the maintenance wash and seal we used the Honey Gold, so it would not darken.

Jon, really cool idea....clear first, then a pigment coat. Pigment sits higher up near the surface, and is at 50% of what it would be in the substrate.

Cool.

Beth

[JFife 14]

Beth,

Some will probably say, "why not just use two coats of the pig. stain?" ....And, the reason that won't work is that the wood is already darkened from the first coat, and RS doesn't have large enough pigments to do any masking. ...But, clear looks clear, no matter how bad the wood is, and if the wood is sealed in clear, and then stained, the color may be great!! I called Pierce and told him to chime in (voicemail) or call me and discuss. We may have just solved the world's wood sealing problems:)

[JFife 14]

Yeah Beth,

Dead-on with the lighter colors. I've heard people complain about multiple coats of stain darkening, but you have to lighten the successive coats. I.E., i've cut TWP cedartone in half with clear, which makes it a lighter color, but makes the re-coat look the same as original Cedartone. If you don't, maintenance work gets dark in a hurry.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Yeah well....two coats of a pigmented stain...not all stains have the same amount or kind of pigment either. But of the products we have used and have applied maintenance coats with, the second application is always a little darker or richer looking. If there is a shade lighter than what you applied the first time, to do your maintenance with, it's a good choice.

Some products will also darken over time - some of the acrylics are notorious for that. Remember Wolman Extreme? Heaven help you if you had to apply touch up on a deck that was in the sun a couple years. At that point you had to give everything a coat or it was splotchy since the acrylic would darken. But that's a whole other nasty issue....Ick! (Sikken Cetol DEK - polymer resin will also do this...)

Have a great day!

:groovy3: Beth :groovy3:

[tropical wave 22]

Rick,

Ive done 1 redwood project with RS and when I talked to Pierce and I gave him the details and history of the wood, he said to use regular RS without the special redwood only formula. This thing was old and nasty too, like the pic you posted, that is really dry....... my point being when I sprayed it with RS natural cedar it was pretty damn dark which concerned me, but when it reached it final color in about 10 days it looked good......I stripped it with SH and when I neutralized it, I used Oxalic and I really hit it and let it stay on there for a long time, so when I sealed it, it was BRITE !!!

the thread is further down in this forum......

http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2238

best bet is to call Pierce....

good luck :cool:

[RPetry 564]

Mike,

In four yrs. in this business, this is the first redwood deck I've seen. Aside from hot tub fascia, redwood is rare in this area. Before starting on this deck, I spoke at length with Pierce. He also advised trying the regular RS.

After cleaning and brightening, spot sanding some bad areas and buffing out all the redwood with defelting pads, I put three separate samples of different regular RS colors on three contiguous redwood 2x4's. All three turned black immediately. There was no appreciable color change the next morning when I checked. RS natural cedar, med. red, and light brown all looked virtually the same black color.

Called Pierce again and described the situation. He suspects that the stain is forcing the tannin in the wood to the surface and suggested trying the redwood only formula. I don't have a clue to the chemistry difference in the RS formulas, but from what I understand, the redwood only RS helps prevent this "tannin bleed". Pierce also mentioned that RS has many contractors in the Western US that use regular RS on redwood without the tannin problem. I guess it just depends on the type of redwood and possibly environmental conditions, maintenance, and maybe the original quality of the wood. It will be interesting to see if there is any difference with the redwood only formula. I'm scheduled to start staining tomorrow morning.

Jon,

Your clear base coat idea is brilliant. Wish I had some in stock to try it out. My problem is that my RS distributor is a 160 mi. drive roundtrip. Got lucky in that he had deliveries in my area of NJ and was able to drop off some redwood only formula yesterday. It would be enlightening to see if the RS clear also turned black, which would be definite proof of the stain forcing the tannin to the surface.

Thanks to everyone for their help and advice. I'll take some pics and let you know how things work out.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Can't wait to see it Rick! Keep us posted.

Good luck on the deck!

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Hey one other curious thought...if alkaline things darken tannin, and acidic things lighten tannin, then is it really tannin bleeding/leaching that is taking place when a sealer darkens wood, given that alkaline products typically are associated with cleaners that break down sealers? Can anyone elaborate?

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

In talking with Pierce about redwood, it was my understanding that the "tannin bleed" problem is actually a physical phenomenon, where the stain penetrating into the redwood forces the tannin in the wood to the surface.

How the redwood only formula tries to prevent this must be of a chemical nature, but I certainly don't have a clue as to how that may work.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I understand the phenomenon, just thinking out loud about why it shows up. Alkaline things will highlight the tannin, acidic things lessen visability. Makes me wonder if a sealer for redwood needs to be a tad more acidic...just thinking aloud...

Beth

[Celeste 341]

Since everyone is thinking out loud here.......There is only so much space for something to absorb something else, thinking of a sponge, when it's full, even if more water is going in, the same amount is leaving simultaneously. If you're trying to put something, a chemical, into a piece of wood, it stands to reason that if there is no extra space in there, something's gotta move out. Can it be a chemical in the stain that the wood prefers over the tannin, therefore some species will force tannins out in order to hold the stain? This seems far to simple to be correct, but again, the question remains.

Celeste

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

If you have old, dry, uncared for wood, wood that is very open and porous and is a softwood, like this... then it may possible (theoretically) that as you introduce the oil, the oil is going far enough in to the wood to carry some of the tannin back up too. Also the deeper the oil goes, the darker the result will be. ( I think this is more likely) If the UV damage is that bad and the client wants lighter wood, then you are faced with sanding.

Hey Rick, snap some clean and dry pics as well as some sealed pics.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

Attached is a picture of pool litmus paper. Ignore the far right pad as it measures free chlorine ppm and the far left pad which measures total alkalinity in ppm (the color chart on the container doesn't come close to the red or brown on the test strips so I can't speculate). The middle pad is pH. The pH color scale on the paper container is facing the front of the picture.

Top strip is untreated paper. The middle is RS redwood only formula, medium red. The bottom strip is RS regular, also medium red color.

I'm not sure if or how the stain pigment may influence the litmus paper but both stains are medium red. There is a definite difference in pH between the RS redwood and regular stains.

Ignoring any pigment influence, the RS redwood formula seems close to 7.0 pH, whereas the RS regular (bottom strip, brown) color is off the chart but I would guess to be much lower, or more acidic. Opposite of what we might expect.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I'm thinking several things here...

1. pigment interfereing as suspected...
   
2. this test might work better if the sealer is applied to wood, allowed to dry and cure, then the wood is rewet and the paper applied....
   
3. even oils/resins have a slight color...like a pale amber
   

Interesting idea to test the sealer tho...

Beth

[James 625]

Redwood does not take much product -Two light coats- the grain is tight and dense- better to work with than cedar- after the first application of redwood only switch to the regular formula- Newer redwood will look light brown, old growth will have reds browns and black hightlights using the same oil.

Because Redwood only has a lower solid content ( like TWP 100) it dry's very faster in hot weather. I had a problem tring it on hardwood. It dried to fast and I had dark over lap marks for a while. Blenda took care of it and a second coat.