how long do I have to wait

[clean kentucky 14]

I have a customer that have a 1200Sq. Ft. deck that's not new by any means. The deck is old and moldy. I quoted a price for cleaning, sealing, replacing a few boards, and tearing down 100 linear ft. of old rail and putting new up. He accepted, but problem is that he wants to seal the whole thing once I'm done putting up new rails. The old part needs seal as soon as possible. I am going to apply Ready Seal Natural Cedar. Maybe WTW. What is the minimum amount of age time for the new wood before I can seal with anyone of these sealer's. Like I said he does'nt want to wait. Thanks Guys!!!

Doug Baker

Baker's Pressure Washing

270-268-1694

[Pete Marentay 14]

I recommend that you wait long enough for the new wood to dry to about 12% moisture if you are going to use Ready Seal. That can take as little as 6-8 weeks, but I would plan on it taking 10 weeks or so. If you are going to use WTW, you should be able to do the sealing right away.

[RPetry 564]

Doug,

Pete's right on the money. As soon as the wood is dry enough, with Ready Seal, go ahead and stain. I have not had the problem that some have reported on the new ACQ wood and applying Ready Seal. As you are fabricating the new rails, look for kiln dryed after treatment lumber for construction. Test with a moisture meter before purchasing. It should be maybe 14% or less.

With Ready Seal, moisture content of the wood is critical. From what I have read about WTW, it does not matter.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Wash the new wood with a SH mix and acid bath afterwards. This opens the structure up to accept sealant. It also removes any wax that has been applied to keep it from weathering while in transit from mill to warehouse/lumber outlet to construction. Many lumber mfr's use a 3-6% wax solution to help protect the wood during this time. It would be a barrier against sealant penetration.

The SH / Acid phase helps to chemically age the wood to keep it from being such a drastic difference compoared to the older UV aged wood.

Rod!~

[PressurePros 248]

Wash the new wood with a SH mix and acid bath afterwards. This opens the structure up to accept sealant. It also removes any wax that has been applied to keep it from weathering while in transit from mill to warehouse/lumber outlet to construction. Many lumber mfr's use a 3-6% wax solution to help protect the wood during this time. It would be a barrier against sealant penetration.

The SH / Acid phase helps to chemically age the wood to keep it from being such a drastic difference compoared to the older UV aged wood.

Rod!~

That is exactly what I would suggest as well. I call it chemical aging.

[RPetry 564]

Rob and Ken,

Strongly disagree. Why beat the bejesus out of bare wood with sodium hydroxide? Sledgehammer where a tack hammer will do? Chemical aging? The sun and moisture is going to do enough damage to the wood over the years without giving it a boost.

If there is a oil penetration problem, a light clean with sodium percarbonate will do. Adjust your stain tints to get close to the old wood. You know as well as I do that you will not exactly match color, so why beat up on the wood?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick,

Rod is not talking about heavy duty stripping on the wood. He's talking about a very light duty bath, with low concentrations and low pressure. Works like a charm.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

With all due respect, sodium hydroxide in any strength is not needed and is indeed damaging to any new, "bare" wood. You know it, Rod knows it, Ken knows it, and any of us who have worked with wood for any length of time knows it.

I am not casting stones. I have treated, and even scrubbed, sodium hydroxide mixes into new wood to try and "age" it. Kind of works, but I knew then and now understand that it is detrimental to what we are trying in the long run to accomplish.

For a couple of boards on the floor it is one thing. To advocate premature chemical aging of a balustrade constructed of new wood is another.

Responsible wood contractors have a calling that is not overtly obvious to the customer. It should be our responsibility to preserve and if possible enhance the natural properties of wood. Short term "fixes" for color variation in new verses old wood are not acceptible if they damage the wood. Sodium hydroxide, especially on unstained wood, is without question damaging.

[PressurePros 248]

Rick, I think you have been brainwashed by Ed. (not mean spirited, just ribbing you)

As was discussed with that good ole boy, sodium hydroxide, in varying dilutions, is in just about every type of soap on the consumer market. Therefore it stands to reason that a light wash of sodium hydroxide on wood is not apt to cause any long term ramifications. It's all in the application. The only thing removed will be that waxy coating that is imparted (either intentionally or by the CCA process itself)

The new CCA treatment is very deeply impregnated and it positively occupies and resists penetrating oils to some degree. Rick, in your mind compare the damage levels on these two scenarios. One, deck is chemically aged (by a professional with no visible damage) and immediately treated with a quality oil. Two, the wood is left to age going through rapid high/low moisture cycles (the true cause of warping, checking, cupping and other visible signs of damage)

You know how it is, Rick. This is not an exact scince. We need to balance perfect world conditions against the reality of harsh exterior enviroment and use what we have learned about wood to meet both customer expectations as well as do what is best for the wood itself. I still stand by my technique.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Why beat the bejesus out of bare wood with sodium hydroxide

Rick, reread the post. There are several factors being covered.

No matter which 'bleach' you choose to use, there are always drawbacks. The man asked for advice now let him make up his own mind according to what he feels is necessary. This is not going to do what you say it is and is exaggerated. You also left out the neutralization part which stops the action of SH. Dwell time is important, concentration is important but it is not going to do what you are claiming if he follows the guidelines I have listed.

If there is a oil penetration problem, a light clean with sodium percarbonate will do.

I don't believe he said this was the case. I mentioned the possibility of a wax coating being present on new wood which a percarb will not effect.

Adjust your stain tints to get close to the old wood.

You should elaborate on how this is done then since Doug is considering 1 of 2 different sealers.

You know as well as I do that you will not exactly match color, so why beat up on the wood?

No, but this helps limit the sharp contrast. It's a suggestion based upon what I have learned how to do and it works quite well.

Responsibility is in letting someone know exactly what the process will do and I believe I was quite clear. Doug will let us know if he has any further questions. In the meantime...

You have your method and I have mine and based upon what customers ask us to do and our educating them as to the possible detriments of ANY chemical being applied to wood new or old is prudent. What I have described for Doug was a technique for blending old with new. It keeps the color from being so sharp against the older wood next to it.

Furniture restoration technicals will describe many bleaching methods available for accomplishing this and more. These are options that are no worse than using straight bleach and water.

I suggest a cool shower, the heat is getting to us all.

Rod!~

[RPetry 564]

Ken,

The soap, sodium hydroxide debate is stupid. Come on, you've had it on your skin, stop it. The concentrations we use it to brush teeth or wash skin are no where close to stripping. Toothpaste and bath soap, come on, silly stuff. Stop it.

I have never advocated allowing softwoods to "age". I just do not advocate aging them prematurely using sodium hydroxide, in any strength. Not needed, not necessary, and not wanted. What happened to cleaning with sodium percarbonate? Innocuous, a low pressure cleaner that does no harm to the wood or surroundings?

Ed Burke was right. As a group we all are a bunch of amateurs. His delivery was inept but the message was clear and and on point.

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

This is not going to do what you say it is and is exaggerated. You also left out the neutralization part which stops the action of SH

I cannot imagine, or have ever run into any new, bare wood that required sodium hydroxide to prepare the wood for stain. I do not advocate or use sodium hypochlorite for new or "bare" wood, only sodium percarbonate followed by a citric acid brightenter/neutalizer. Excuse me for "leaving out the neutalizaiton" step, because I do not advocate sodium hydroxide on new wood. A citric acid neutalizer/brightener is always followed by a percarb wash.

I don't believe he said this was the case.

I did not say it, you said it. "Many lumber mfr's use a 3-6% wax solution to help protect the wood during this time. It would be a barrier against sealant penetration."

I have never seen this problem, but I do not try to stain without prepping new woood with a percarb cleaning and a citric acid rinse.

Adjust your stain tints to get close to the old wood.

That is quite hard to do on a bullitin board. I'm not there, and he has not yet installed or cleaned the new wood. It will not come out near the old wood, and we all know that.

These are options that are no worse than using straight bleach and water.

I do not use sodium hypoclorite and water and detergents for new, or stripped wood. Never have and not now. I do use a conservative mix of sodium hypochlorite, water, and a touch of detergent for Ready Seal maintenance.

[PressurePros 248]

Rick, you missed my point with the analogy. Sodium hydroxide can be reduced to levels that will not harm your skin. What I am trying to say is, your all encompassing statement is not grounded in fact. I am surprised you would take such an alarmist stance on this topic as I know you to be a man of fact and science. What Ed Burke did was spout off studies that, in my opinion, do not have the all encompassing answers, nor incorporate a bit of real world conditions nor practicality. If sodium hydroxide can be made safe for something as sensitive skin, it can certainly be diluted to use on exterior wood.

I am not sure how much PTP you have worked with these last couple of season but unfortunately people are not using KD15 from quality yards. They (or their contractors) are using the Home Depot D grade crap that is practically dripping with gren flourescence. Even left out for a month this stuff laughs at paraffinics and spits them right back out. I HAVE tried sodium percarbonate. On the three decks I used it (that had repair work), it not only did nothing to alleviate the contrast of new/old, it did nothing to prep the new boards. After attempting to alleviate the mess that would not penetrate the wood, I ended the aggravation by stripping those areas and starting again.

You just may not have come across the scenario yet. When you do, you will understand. At that point I would like to see what viable solution you offer the customer.

[RPetry 564]

Arrg,

Never mind. Just spent a wasted hour reponding to two threads and the site trashes with a new look.

Do whatever you all think is fine. Ed Burke was a lot more correct than many may think.

[PressurePros 248]

That's frustrating Rick. I have had that happen too.

Real world, Rick. Keep it in perspective. I don't expect anyone's deck is going to crumble to the ground prematurely using the procedures we all use. Regardless of prep, we are talking about cosmetics. The customer knows their deck will last at most 20 years. I venture to say that even if I used stripper every single time (ie stripped it every year) the sher fact that I was oiling it would keep it healthier than letting it sit exposed.

Don't believe the hype. Question for ya, Rick. After confering with Mr Ego, how have you modified the way you do things? I am not being facetious, I am actually asking if you re-evaluated and changed your procedures? You are a believer in using F-18. F-18 was designed for concrete, not wood care. I could make issue with that fact and say you are not doing all you can to preserve and protect. To a certain extent we are all at the mercy of manufacturers, chemists, and "experts". Who to believe?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick, if you look at the posts Ed made you'll see I agreed with him.

Sorry you lost your post. So do you like the logo?

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Ken,

I am not sure how much PTP you have worked with these last couple of season

Too much, but nearly all old PTP. Did two "new" ACQ decks last year, but they had weathered 5 and 8 months over the winter. Cleaned with sodium percarb, brightened with citric and stained with RS. Obviously the wood did not take as much oil as older wood, but did not have any problems with penetration. Have replaced boards with new good quality ACQ purchased at real lumber yards and have not had problems. On the one WTW job I did last Nov., the new ACQ replacement boards took the stain fine.

Maybe I'm just lucky or maybe I purchase higher quality lumber. But I have not experienced this "wax" problem or if I have and not known it, sodium percarbonate took care of it. If and when I do, I'll probably sand the new wood if it is replacement boards.

I honestly would have to think long and hard before using sodium hydroxide on a completely new deck. It is not that I think sodium hydroxide is bad for wood, it is bad for wood. Why did everyone run out and buy Makita's a few years ago for defelting? Why the constant questions and even polls on this site about "fuzzies". You are removing lignin from the surface of the wood and leaving behind strands of cellulose fiber. Why does ESI offer EFC-38 and other stripper manufactuers carry sodium percarbonate based wood cleaners?

I have no qualms with those that use HD-80 as opposed to F-18, they are both sodium hydroxide strippers. In the poll I stated that subjectively, F-18 seemed to stay wet longer and was less harsh on the wood. But this may be due to more personal experience in using strippers. Over the past 5 years I have gained a much better intuitive sense of mix concentrations, dwell times, and water pressure. In any case I avoid using NaOH if at all possible. Its not only bad for the wood, its bad for people, plants, and your customers property. One of the primary benefits and an important reason why I use RS stains is that they do not have to be stripped.

Question for ya, Rick. After confering with Mr Ego, how have you modified the way you do things? I am not being facetious, I am actually asking if you re-evaluated and changed your procedures?

Yes I have. On light cleaning prep jobs I am using a natural bristle brush to lightly scrub the sodium percarbonate cleaner on horizontal wood and a corresponding lower rinse pressure. Same thing with all RS maintenance, a light scrub of a weak sodium hypochlorite mix followed by a low pressure rinse.

Not sure if it makes that much difference with some sodium percarb cleanings, but intuitively it makes sense. The lower rinse pressure has to be of some benefit. With RS maintenance, you have to understand that the trick is to preserve as much of the existing oil and pigment already in the wood. This procedure helps.

What is surprising is that the time necessary to scrub the wood is pretty much made up in less time rinsing. Mind you, this is only horizontal wood. I'm not and do not plan on hand scrubbing 4 sides of each balustrade spindle!

Beth,

So do you like the logo?

To be honest, no. I kind of feel like I'm on the set of "Dragnet", waiting for Joe Friday to put the cuffs on.

[clean kentucky 14]

I realy do appreciate everyone's professional opinions and options to handle this job. I should have asked more in depth, but I was thinking the wood had to season for at least a few months. Pierce called from Ready Seal and helped me out with this. I have yet to stain one brand new. The customer knows there is going to be a contrast. I was going to wash the new wood with the old when everything is built. I realized it would help to wash it, but I was up in the air about what to use on it. After reading your replies I believe I will use Hd-80 and citralic afterwards. I will probably use a mix of HD-80 at 3oz. to gallon let dwell for 10 minutes and wash. I may use EFC-38 full strength mixed with 2 oz. of Hd-80 on the whole deck instead. How do these mixes sound? One more question, would the WTW or the Ready Seal do better at helping hide the contrast? I have WTW and Ready Seal Natural Cedar. If I use Ready Seal, this will be the first time. I bought it while waiting on 30 gallon of WTW that took a long time to get here so I would have a back up.

Doug Baker

Baker's Pressure Washing

270-268-1694

[RPetry 564]

Doug,

You may want to talk to Russ Cissell of ESI before mixing EFC-38 and HD-80 together.

The quality of the wood you purchase to build the 100' of balustrade may dictate the best process to use in prepping it.

Others will have advice on WTW. For Ready Seal, in general, for older PTP I have found natural cedar to be a bit too light of a color. Medium red is by far my most popular color for this type of wood. But as you already have natural cedar, for the new wood a 50/50 mix of dark. red and med. brown may give you a "darker" natural cedar, which will look lighter on the new wood and may help to blend in colors. I have not tried this but you may want to get a RS sample kit and try it. Pierce may have better suggestions.

Without actually being there and seeing the wood after it is prepped, its kind of difficult to be accurate on custom colors.

If you do use Ready Seal, just make sure the wood is at 12% or less moisture content and get as much stain into the wood as possible. For first time RS customers, I always put two separate applications on the horizontal wood, allowing at least 12 hours of drying time between stain applications.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

To be honest, no. I kind of feel like I'm on the set of "Dragnet", waiting for Joe Friday to put the cuffs on.

Then I would say Keith nailed it on the head, because Dragnet was the example I used. After all, Grime Scene and Crime Scene...the site was named for that play on words and with a detective theme in mind....

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I will probably use a mix of HD-80 at 3oz. to gallon let dwell for 10 minutes and wash.

Then apply an acid to neutralize then rinse thoroughly.

I may use EFC-38 full strength mixed with 2 oz. of Hd-80 on the whole deck instead.

Overkill. Use one or the other but apply an acid afterwards for neutralization.

I'll let Russell answer the question pertaining to WTW blending old to new wood.

Rod!~

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

Then I would say Keith nailed it on the head, because Dragnet was the example I used.

Thats funny, and it really was my initial reation. The artwork, colors, lettering and all are very high quality and professional. I guess I must just be guilty of something or another. Know any bail bondsmen?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Well, come to think of it you did dress like the bleach bandito that one time... hmmmm....

Beth