New Deck Prep

[Cannon 14]

What is the process on a new deck? Here is what I think it is... feel free to shoot holes in it and give me other methods that work.

1. Let it age over a winter.

2. Clean it with 1/2 water, 1/2 bleach and dawn soap.

Here is where I have the most questions... Is Sodium Percarbonate an option here? What else??? I have heard of an "EFCxx" product. (some name similar to that anyways)

3. Brighten with Oxalic or Citric acid... Is this optional if certain chemicals are used in the cleaning process?

4. Seal. As long as I'm here... what are the best sealers for semi-transparent and opaque? I have used Ready Seal and I liked it... but I assume some customers will want an Opaque finish.

[Firedkm 14]

Jeff,

You should not let the deck "age" of the winter. This is when most decks get damaged! The deck still needs to be cleaned eventhough its new. Beth and Rod have some good products that will work for you. Just contact Beth and she will give all the info you need.

After the deck is cleaned then seal it. If you have had good results with Timber seal I would stay with it. Beth has a product called Wood Tux. I saw it over the weekend at the round table she hosted. I have not tried it yet, but I did get some samples from her. The Guy who makes Wood Tux was there and if this does just half of what he says I will be impressed.

Dale

Sparkling Detail

Tabernacle, NJ

[Brian Keating 14]

Jeff,

I would recommend getting a copy of the Wood Restoration and Residential Powerwash Profit Seminar manual. I'm not sure if Beth sells it but you can get it at www.sunbritesupply.com. It will give you all of the information you need to get started in wood restoration. It is also the manual used by PWNA for wood restoration certification.

Brian

[Guest rfitz]

If your new deck is cedar, wait 6 months to 1 year before doing anything,

if pressure treated, wash with a sodium percarb, briten with a oxilic acid,

wait 2-3 good dry days, more if deck is say 3 feet or closer to ground,

apply ready seal or wood tux 2+ coats wait at least 1-3 days inbetween coats, when washing dont go over 600-700 PSI I always stay under 1000 and wood wont get tore up, keep wand tip at least 8-12 inches away from wood at all times, if deck is cedar and newer wood, you will have a hard time getting sealer into wood, therefore if you choose to seal new cedar I suggest 1 lite coat of wood tux, it is more of a flim finish than a penetrating oil like ready seal,

[Paul B. 523]

Wood can be sealed as soon as its moisture content is down to a level that is acceptable by the stain to be applied. This varies by brand, but is in the range of 12 to 15%.

Wood pH is critical and should be kept within 6-8 range when applying stains. Most cleaners and strippers have a high pH between 8 to 14. After cleaning or stripping, to bring the wood pH level back to neautral, you need to use an acid treatment (these have pH levels from 1 to 6).

If only mild cleaning and brightening are needed, use a sodium percarbonate (Disodium Peroxydicarbonate) based chemical. Sodium percarbonate based cleaning is followed by an acid bath to brighten the surface (remove any tannin) and to balance out the pH for sealing. If in doubt about the wood pH, you can purchase Litmus paper at a pool supply store and check it on a damp deck surface.

- If it's new wood, the removal of Mill Glaze will be necessary - this will allow better stain penetration. Mill Glaze can be removed with Oxalic Acid, Bio-Wash Mill Glaze Away, Woodpal New Deck Prep Mill Glaze Remover or numerous other products available on the market.

- Stripping existing coating with a base or alkaline type chemical such as HD-80, then brighten and neutralize (1 step process) the wood with an acid chemical such as Citralic or Citric acid to bring pH to between 6-8.

- Clean to remove debris from between boards

- Re-set nail heads that may have raised out of the wood

- Sand hand railing top for smooth finish. Sand other areas to remove furring caused by stripping. Sand to remove Mill Stamp if deck is new.

- Allow wood to dry (wood moisture content to be between 12-15% - some stains, such as Flood's Spa-'N-Deck, will accept much higher moisture content and even wet application). Most stains will tell you what moisture level is acceptable before application.

- Apply stain (there are 1 coat, 2 coat wet-on-wet, 2 coat with dry time inbetween and solids that require a primer and 2 top coats). Follow sealer manufacturers recommendation for best results.

In most cases over-application is just as bad as under application and as a good rule of thumb, two light coats are better than 1 heavy - but these are application preferences.

www.PrimeShop.com/prep.htm has a lot of good detailed info on wood preparation.

[Cannon 14]

How do I know if a deck still has Mill Glaze on it?

[ron p 500]

just put a few drop's of water on it. If it bead's for more then 5 sec. then it has mill glaze.

[Everett Abrams 501]

Paul B,

Awesome reply to post.

A couple of things I would like to add.

Jeff,

In regards to mill glaze, you should do a splash test just as you always do. If the water beads up as if it were sealed then there is mill glaze. It will not weather off by itself.

Also, in regards to letting wood "age", this is a very common misconception. You don't have to take my word for it though, The Western Red Cedar Lumber Association issues this statement "Caution: Cedar should not be left unfinished for 6 to 12 months as suggested by some finish manufacturers and others" This can be viewed at the following site: http://www.wrcla.org/ look on page 6 of the pdf file. This is also a great site for info.

In regards to multiple coats. Where sealers are concerned a wet on wet coat is recommended. If you let the first coat dry and apply a second coat the first coat may repel the first. Further, by letting the first coat dry you are taking away just what the properties of the sealer are supposed to do when applying a second coat. Understand that many of the products are oil based and are a food source for mold and mildew. If the second coat doesn't completely dry all you are doing is feeding the mold and mildew, attracting it. With that said, as was stated always refer to the manufacturer's recommendations as some products may be able to be recoated in different ways.

[Brian Keating 14]

Rob - What is the reasoning behind waiting 6 months to a year to seal cedar?

[reed 500]

DON'T LET IT SIT. As stated above, letting wood age "is old school thinking". Decks should be protected as soon as the moisture content is correct for the sealer you choose to use, this applies especially to new Cedar. Protect the beauty of it. Pressure treated MAY need to sit in order for moisture content to subside, but it depends on how long the wood sat exposed to the elements at the lumber yard and how new the PT wood is as far as when it was treated. Go to the link Everette provided and read up.

Multiple coats are recommended for certain sealers. Some not at all.

Do your customer a great service and do it as soon as all the elements are correct, but don't let it "age".

Reed

[James 624]

I totally disagree. I wait 6 months to a year depending on which type of cedar. The site says nothing about protecting the wood right away. It does say if you do it to soon it will not absorb the oil. It also says to clean with bleach. Cedar is very dense and has natural extractives that prohibit penitrating oils from going in. There is no benefit to sealing cedar right away. Unless you are going to use a film forming finish. The test the site was talking about was wood used for siding and those were film forming finishes.

Most of my work is new cedar (refered by builders)and stripping cedar decks done to soon by people who don't understand cedar.

I even tried wood tux samples on 3 month old port orford cedar. Would not go in ! I have 3 cedar deck s ready to go in spring.

[Guest rfitz]

I had 2 cedar decks this fall that were both only 2 months old, and tried ready seal, and neither deck would absorb oil, so I washed off and will do again next spring, wait 6 months at least for new cedar, maybe even up to 1 year

Good Luck

[Cannon 14]

Paul B,

You said to remove Mill Glaze With Oxalic acid or some other product... Does the Oxalic Acid become the first step then? Do you follow up with bleach or Percarb to get the PH back to nuetral?

Will HD-80 followed by Oxalic Acid work for Mill Glaze?

[Guest rfitz]

If I may answere this, I think all oxalic acid does is briten the wood and neutralize the stripping agents, whenever you use sodium hydroxide products on wood or high alkaline cleaners, they tend to darken the wood, so to reverse this the oxalic or citrolic acid will stop this action and reverse the Ph of the wood, I think this is the way it works, someone may be able to help more on this subject...?

[Paul B. 523]

Oxalic acid will remove mill glaze.

HD-80 is a heavy duty finish stripper that is mainly used to remove existing finishes. A few folks use a very diluted mix of HD-80 to clean with which would also remove the mill glaze however that would not be my approach.

For new wood, wash with a percarb cleaner and then use the mill glaze remover or oxalic acid. If you use oxalic acid after the percarb, you need to make sure you rinse adequately to remove all oxalic acid residue and achieve neutral pH.

Depending on what brand mill glaze remover you use will determine the sequence. Some mill glaze removers will brighten wood, while others along with cleaning or stripping will darken it and would require a brightener afterwards.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

To remove mill glaze be gentle. Use EFC-38 or another percarbonate based cleaner, then brighten if needed depending on the spiecies of wood. I do not suggest Sodium hydroxide on new wood unless we are talking maybe 20% strenght, and even then I would rather go half strength on a percarb like EFC-38 and wash gently.

Defurr the deck, pound in nails and prep, and seal.

Never wait to seal wood.

Would you go bake in the sun at the beach for 6 says and THEN on the last day of vacation put on sunscreen? No...you would end up with a horrific sunburn. UV damage happens regardless of when the deck was built or the lumber was milled. Check your wood moisture, and seal that puppy up.

Beth;)

[Everett Abrams 501]

Cedar is not considered a dense wood. Here is another link to check on many types of wood. http://www.worldagroforestrycentre.org/sea/Products/AFDbases/WD/Index.htm

Use the search function and check out and compare the different types we usually run into. This is a great reference tool actually. When comparing densities the lower the number the least dense. If we refer to the link above and the pdf file on page 4 it addresses the wood density. Further, if you also refer to page 10 it does go into "new wood" and it does not recommend an aging process. This can further be followed up with a phone call to "The Western Red Cedar Lumber Association. They actually recommend that no wood "sit" for over two weeks.

A comment on penetrating oils, these work very well on cedar, specifically if it is knotty. The penetrating oils are usually recommended for hardwoods, this is why it works well around the dense knots. It leaves the appearance much more even. It has also been relayed to me in a study that Cabot did that the penetrating oil lasted approx. 6 months loger than their other products. Penetrating oils are also recommended on page 12 of the file by the same association.

I can also tell you in speaking with them they do not endorse chlorine bleach for any purpose as well as they don't even endorse pressure washing. There reason behind this is that as an industry we cause to much damage because of lack of knowledge and proper education. Most of the problems come from too much pressure, lack of knowledge of chemicals, and lack of knowledge of coatings and their applications.

Another topic we often discuss is Mill Glaze. Their feeling is there is no such animal. Second hand information tells me that the Forest Products Lab in Madison, WI has tried to replicate mill glaze and can find no way to do so. Thet have also asked for samples and found nothing in studies. They also state that while they can't prove that it doesn't exist , they also can not prove that it does. I also find this thread extremely interesting and informative. I hope others reading this are enjoying it as much. I know I got a great idea I wouldn't have had if not for this thread.

These are all interesting topics and no one has to believe me but, feel free to call these folks and see what they have to say. I just follow what these folks tell me. This is where I get my education and advice. I am sure the debates will continue. I don't want to refute what others say necessarily, I am merely offering up other information. I do think though for us to grow as an industry these items will eventually have to have a standard answer. This is what the USDA and the WRCLA are trying to do.

[Paul B. 523]

To build on what Everett has just posted, if you check out this site: www.fpl.fs.fed.us/DOCUMNTS/finlines/willi01a.pdf

you will see the write-up they did regarding their unsuccessful attempt to duplicate mill glaze.

Be it "mill glaze" or not, my experience is that new wood has a much tighter outer grain structure than one that has been aged or "de-glazed" and accepts stain much better.

Having some experience in machining and materials, I can say with certainty that changes in material structures do take place during a machining process. I think something does happen from machining as heat is generated. Sap may also be a culprit in the equasion.

[reed 500]

Great thread. Lots of info with varying thoughts. One way I tell customers in that they could understand mill glaze, is imagine thousands of boards cut on one blade. Blade changes cost the mills $$$, so blades aren't changed that often, or often enough, so when a blade gets dull it glazes the wood, kind of like a small burn than closes the pours. Removng the mill glaze opens the pours back up. The customers understand this explanation, though we all know there is more to it.

Great links.

Reed

[James 624]

Another factor with mill glaze is the wood is wet and has a lot of extractives . When its milled they heat up and come to the surface leaving a burnished affect on top of the wood.

Ive been doing this for 8 years First 4 used pre-carbs and treated cedar right away. 2 nd 4 years started trying bleach and started letting all wood except pressure treated sit for 6 months to a year. Best move I made !!!!!

[Brian Keating 14]

James - Would you let a new cedar deck sit through a winter of freezing and thawing? It seems to me that you are promoting cracking and checking when you let a cedar deck go through a wnter without sealing it. I ran across a 3 year old deck this season that had already started to rot. I had to replace 6 boards. Letting it sit six month through a summer is probably OK but I would not recommend letting it sit through a winter. Just my opinion.

[James 624]

Yes - Cedar doesn't check or crack like PT- I started doing this because cedar doesn't hold or let a sealer penitrate deep enough to last. Once I started letting the wood age a year ( OH BABY WHAT PENITRATION). That one year of abuse helps the wood open up. Now I hold support groups for people who treated cedar pre maturally.

Cedar thats 3 years old should never rot . unless it's a foot off the ground. no spacing between boards',, pine trees all around' , constant shade ,leaves were left for two years on top of deck , otherwise; sounds like bad lumber

[Cannon 14]

Some replies touched on this....

Do I take a different approach on wait time and chemicals used if I have Pressure Treated wood vs. Cedar?

[James 624]

Some pretty good old stuff ?