WTW tips

[bigchaz 157]

700 sq foot all horizontal job I just sold with wood tux wet. Stripped the previous finish and brightened

Any tips for the WTW? I learned on my sample tests that it should be really thin. The wood is pine. Planning on using the 18 inch pad for it

Anything I should know or y'all recommend before putting it on?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

By the way - you should get a MSDS with that Woodrich. It's the law. But chances are you won't (unless you get it from a source who has them on file.)

Last week I again requested MSDS sheets from ESI for the new WTW (after VOC changes in 2005 the sheet should have changed) and also the Woodrich Stain & Seal. Have never gotten them. However I was finally told that if I wanted them I needed to send a SASE (self addressed stamped envelope) or an overnight envelope and they would then send them. NO JOKE.

Has anyone out there ever been told they needed to provide a SASE to get an MSDS? We have bought from many vendors in the past, and NONE of them have ever had this.....um....requirement. (for lack of a better description?) I can get most online, and have always gotten them with shipments automatically from other vendors, and by fax or email when needed.

Absolutely amazing. SASE.

Beth

[plainpainter 217]

Beth, why the witch-hunt on ESI as of late? Wasn't Woodtux and HD-80 your darling products that you continually espoused every chance you got? It seems you have been poo-pooing both products as of late. And what is the big deal about carrying an MSDS? As a painting contractor - whether I bought deck stain, paint, primer, pre-packaged stripper, paint strippers - not once did I ever get an MSDS sheet from my paint store. And to my knowledge nobody ever requires painters to carry them - is this some kind of joke? Carrying deck stain to a job shouldn't require one to be DOT certified or something - I think you are taking yourself a wee bit too seriously lately. No offense to the other companies you have been trying to push lately - but seriously any problems you have been receiving with Woodtux products whether shipping - or formula change - I don't see how that would affect the performance of HD-80, and I have heard not one complaint from anyone here about shipping on that product either. Not that I use anybodys stripper myself - just don't understand the about face change in recent weeks.

[bigchaz 157]

dealers are required to carry msds sheets on all their products dan. Your paint store should have one available for every paint they offer. Just ask for it. Even home depot and lowes have signs saying they are available. If you were to run into an accident in the field due to chemicals or paint/stain the msds is key in knowing what to do. It covers precautions for eye, skin, and respiratory safety. Not to mention if you were in a vehicle accident or something or had a fire, safety officials are going to want to know what they are dealing with.

Beth - It really is kinda ridiculous. All my timber pro and pressuretek chems have the msds sheets in with the package. SASE is crazy talk. Envirospec mounts theres to the outside of packages as well. And its not just once either. I have probably 40 msds sheets from every order ive made. Multiple copies of every one.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

We have copies of MSDS for all the products we use in the shop and binders in each truck. It's the law. You are required to carry them.

We are not on a witch hunt, but we are FED UP. We have had problems getting product, and problems with performance from time to time, mostly on the stain. There have been times when the ESI chemicals were back ordered and we did in fact have to purchase a backup product from another supplier to do a job. This is how we discovered that it is wise not to put your eggs all in one basket. ESI does have good products, but are the hassles worth it? Get to know the other chems. They do work just as well.

One of the reasons I have pushed for MSDS sheets on the ESI stains, was due to a rash encountered by our crew. They came back, reported unusual symptoms and showed us a rash, and needed the information!!! I requested it on demand and NEVER got it, although I got plenty of excuses. I'm sorry - call it a witch hunt if you like, but I take people's health VERY seriously!

I want those MSDS sheets. I have provided an email address, a fax number and a mailing address. I have been told they were mailed. We'll see.

Beth

ps... reported the employee rash and requested MSDS on demand on May 4th, 2007.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

My responses in blue:

Beth, why the witch-hunt on ESI as of late? Wasn't Woodtux and HD-80 your darling products that you continually espoused every chance you got? Yes and the operative word is "was". It seems you have been poo-pooing both products as of late. We are suggesting alternatives as we have always done. We have not always been impartial but we have always tried to be helpful to those who provided good service. And what is the big deal about carrying an MSDS? As a painting contractor - whether I bought deck stain, paint, primer, pre-packaged stripper, paint strippers - not once did I ever get an MSDS sheet from my paint store. And to my knowledge nobody ever requires painters to carry them - is this some kind of joke? On this one I will refer you to DOT [/url]hazmat regulations and restrictions that state specifically that an MSDS must be available for any liquid, powder, gas or solid that is transported on public roadways in the case of an emergency for use by the hazmat response team for containment, clean up or neutralization of same. Failure to produce an MSDS upon an inspection can result in fines and penalties. Not to mention the possibility of using inappropriately labeled containers is also a violation. OSHA also requires that in order to be compliant with the "Right to know" act, employers must make available these MSDS sheets for the employees review at their option.Carrying deck stain to a job shouldn't require one to be DOT certified or something - I think you are taking yourself a wee bit too seriously lately. No offense to the other companies you have been trying to push lately - but seriously any problems you have been receiving with Woodtux products whether shipping - or formula change - I don't see how that would affect the performance of HD-80, and I have heard not one complaint from anyone here about shipping on that product either. To remain on topic, we are addressing the sealer specifically here. Not that I use anybodys stripper myself - just don't understand the about face change in recent weeks.

Glad you asked.

As far as a "witch hunt" as you put it, I accept that it may be perceived as that. It has always been our aim to make information available based upon our experiences and knowledge for the membership to use as they see fit.

To further elaborate, we have endured some pretty undesirable and unnecessary experiences and feel it is the honorable thing to let anyone else considering using products from this manufacturer know that all is not well because we understand that their businesses depend on information to make decisions that concern their clientele, schedules, reputation and profit margins.

Just as in the past we had been vocal on the problems with an organization, we will continue to do the same for our membership here on TGS to make sure they have another perspective based upon actual experiences.

Yes, we in the past have sung praises for an outstanding product line but changes have occurred and in our professional experience and opinion, they have not all been good. Business people like yourselves need to know. Take it for what it is...information, and make up your own minds. We no longer feel the way we used to about the line because we (the consumer) have been left to alter the formulation in the field by adding various off the shelf ingredients (with no compensation for the additional expenses) in order to obtain the results that should have been available straight out of the container as labeled.

We created a business model based upon those products and find at this time we can no longer endorse the quality as we once did. This thread is full of many others testament to the fact they have had problems and instead of a recall of the defective product and replacement with a correct one, we are all given instructions on how to make it work. You tell me, should we be quiet about this, keep the status quo and become an accomplice or should we do the right thing and pass on the information?

People have come to know TGS's membership for being watchdogs in the industry and a source of information that has helped many make an informed decision that best suited their businesses. Being a responsible part of it, we shall not deviate from that course as it is who we are...up front, honest and caring about those who have become a part of the TGS community.

Thank you for the opportunity to explain ourselves.

Rod!~

[MMI Enterprises 289]

How long till you got your stain and seal? Ordered woodrich almost 10 days ago and my credit card hasnt even been charged yet?

Mine came by way of Scott. Directly following last weekend issue with wtw he provided tracking info beginning of the week, as I requested, and the Stain and Seal arrived Fri. same as the original wtw order did.

[plainpainter 217]

Beth and Rod - Just curious - since I sat and awed at your work for the last couple of years and finally decided to use Woodtux for myself. At what point, were you not happy with the product? And if it wasn't this most recent formulation change, then when? And why did you wait so long about your disgruntled disposition on woodtux. And if the product goes back to the '06 formula - is that a good incarnation of woodtux, or was it already not the same animal that you use to like? I bought a pail in september of '06 - and it seemed fine to me - perhaps you have data of longevity testing? So what now? Are you saying the product is no better than say a gallon of Sikkens or Aussie oil?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Beth and Rod - Just curious - since I sat and awed at your work for the last couple of years and finally decided to use Woodtux for myself. At what point, were you not happy with the product? And if it wasn't this most recent formulation change, then when? And why did you wait so long about your disgruntled disposition on woodtux. And if the product goes back to the '06 formula - is that a good incarnation of woodtux, or was it already not the same animal that you use to like? I bought a pail in september of '06 - and it seemed fine to me - perhaps you have data of longevity testing? So what now? Are you saying the product is no better than say a gallon of Sikkens or Aussie oil?

I have covered the most salient items on this subject in my previous post. If you wish to discuss this further then we welcome you to give either of us a call.

Rod!~

[plainpainter 217]

Ok - I will give you guys a call tomorrow - actually Beth left a message on my machine a month ago - and only got back to leave a message and never followed up. But I just wanted to say - that for the most part, that the grimescene for me represented a platform for using woodtux products for the very best in woodcare. Not that I haven't read your posts about using other products in the past - such as sikkens or cabots - but that woodtux and esi chems was a way to turn your business from being a casual handyman taking orders from customers. To taking over and providing a vertically integrated business approach to having customers surrendering over total deck care and providing a totally professional deck maintenance program. I like that business model. I just feel that evaporating, especially on this forum.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

The approach still works, but you can apply it using various tools.

Beth :cup:

[PressurePros 249]

It's an alkyd emulsion, it's sticky pretty quik after. Might want to wipe excess sooner then 10 min. The 'after the fix' stuff I used doesn't cure where applied excessive. Soaking doesn't seem to deepen the look of a thirsty board much to me. All that will dry is what is IN the wood is my feeling whether your out east with high humidity or blistering dry heat of the West.

Not into fiddling around putting on a little then wiping..that's a bunch of bs.. Spray the whole deck a good coat in like 5 min then back brush with shurline on an extension pole.

I am hoping for good things from the Stain and Seal...Shows no separation in the container after a night sitting. How hard it is to create a top film remains to be seen. Hoping it is real hard.

Once again, kevin, I have to ask you exactly how much experience you have with A) WoodTux in general and B) WoodTux on hardwoods. I'll give you mine. tens of thousands of square feet on both A & B in addition to frequent correspondance with the manufacturer of wood Tux and other high volume hardwood service companies.

[James 625]

Ken ,probably as much experience as you have with Ready Seal. That one time you mis applied and let the customer tracK it in the house. LOL !! HE HE HE HO HO HO. The morning is starting good today ! Couldn't resist.

TEN'S OF THOUSANDS OF SQUARE FEET?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Current MSDS sheets fro two of the products are here: http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/chemicals-safety/11261-wood-tux-woodrich-msds-sheets.html

Beth

[PressurePros 249]

Ken ,probably as much experience as you have with Ready Seal. That one time you mis applied and let the customer tracK it in the house. LOL !! HE HE HE HO HO HO. The morning is starting good today ! Couldn't resist.

TEN'S OF THOUSANDS OF SQUARE FEET?

Ready Seal.. Maybe 6 decks. Three complaints. Too expensive to use. I'm not into applying four coats of a product for it to look finished. That means, no expert on Ready Schpiel. That's your forte.

We should finish the season with between 130-150 decks. (we don't have to wait for dry days and I DO advertise and have multiple guys working at once)Average s/f of wood on each deck comes in about 900.

900 * 130 = 117,000

I'm sorry about that Jim, I meant to type hundreds of thousands. Thank you for pointing out that error.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Once again, kevin, I have to ask you exactly how much experience you have with and B) WoodTux on hardwoods. I'll give you mine. tens of thousands of square feet on both A & B in addition to frequent correspondance with the manufacturer of wood Tux and other high volume hardwood service companies.

Hi Ken,

"Once again" ?..when's the first? If your implying something stood to be corrected then refresh me..if there is something new let's talk about it. What's on yer mind? :)

You seem to be implying I incorrectly described my own recent experience with the 'after the fix' version I received or gave bad advice on application? Container itself reads 3-5 min. then wipe, a 4-8 hour dry time, and that for a "richer" look you can "TRY" two coats . You yourself told me, based on manufacture communication, that the latest stuff that was supposed to have been fixed won't ever cure and/or implied to me that it should not be expected to so am unsure of what your getting at concerning my recent posting.

"A) WoodTux in general " ...very limited with a curing version.. more limited with a non curing version.

"B) WoodTux on hardwoods" ....none...why you have need to mention hardwood when I dealing with redwood, doug fir, and cedar?

With that said, I've had experience with alkyd emulsions of various brand and they pretty much all are about the same animal for the most part.

Unsure where ones extensive experience with one version of a product translates into more experience on another one or a new uncuring one though so I find us both talking about experience levels pretty much useless as of late...

BTW, it was denied that wtw was an alkyd emulsion at one point..did you know that?

Can't find it on here now but I find it interesting anyways..

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Alkyd is listed on the MSDS sheet....

Beth

[Scott Paul 164]

We started using the total square footage as a marketing tool for our restoration services about 10 years ago. If you do the math it really shows. Example: if you have done have done 300 decks it would be 300 x average square footage (500 feet or so) = 150000 square feet restored. Looks very good on paper and customers like it. I have sold numerous jobs on that alone.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

We started using the total square footage as a marketing tool for our restoration services about 10 years ago. If you do the math it really shows. Example: if you have done have done 300 decks it would be 300 x average square footage (500 feet or so) = 150000 square feet restored. Looks very good on paper and customers like it. I have sold numerous jobs on that alone.

Now if you just expand that to cover other trades some would read more like McDonalds #'s... am only up to a tad over 10 million sf.ft. of surface maintained myself so am way shy of zillions..lol :)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

We ordered our Wood Tux "classic" from Scott today. It will be good to have the "classic" Wood Tux back. :)

Beth