Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)

[John T 744]

If you look at the news you will see that people put religion way up there. They Live by it and they will die for it. 9-11 for example.

Why do people have blind faith?? My Nephew who is very intelligent and somewhat religious attends Rutgers University. He went to an organize debate titled EVOLUTION v. CREATION. Evolution is more or less stating that we came from a cell and went from there. Creation is that God put us here(Adam and Eve) and we came from there.

The debate in a nut shell went like this....All the facts that the Evolution side put on the table the Creation side tried to tear it apart but the Creation side really couldn't put up any facts for themselves since there side is built on faith and hearsay(Bible which is past down thru men/women)

So I ask why do people put faith ahead of fact? Is it a character flaw that we as humans have?? Is it the guilt that is bread in us that if we don't believe in God we are terrible people and we will go staight to.......

In the shortest words possible since most of us can write a book about this ---Why do you think Faith does thru-out the Planet beat Fact most of the time when it comes to Religion???

[John T 744]

The beauty of Science is that eventually thru trial an error they will come up with the right answers like they have in many cases. Some Science Idea's will take 100's of years to get the right answers but they will get there.

Religion on the other hand will always be an interpretation idea which will ALWAYS have flaws because it most likely can never really be based on FACTS.

Science in the end when proven correct thru there trial an errors will be FACTUAL and the 100's if not 1000's different religions will be based on Stories right or wrong.

My Own Opinion-Most people in general need a Belief system to give them HOPE and also to be able to COPE when Tradegy hits them such as Losing a Child(Tough Example but just trying to make a point). They have to Believe that there Child is in a better Place or they will just go to Pieces if they haven't already. For this I think Religion is great and I will always never deny anyone that who might have experience some tragic event in there life.

With that being said when I deal with emergency's I might tell someone "Thank God this wasn't worse then it could have been and that they'll be alright as I rush them to the Hospital HOPING that a Doctor can help them. IF a Priest has to be notified then most of the time there really is no hope..........

[Mike Williamson 198]

There are just a few things I'd like to point out here.

First, the story of Eve and the apple is not in the bible. There is no mention of what type of fruit Eve at from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It very likely is a fruit different from anything we have today. Thus, the "Eve and apple" is not a mistranslation, but simply a slightly (and harlessly) mistaken tradition.

As far as Mary being a virgin, the bible is clear on that. You are correct that the Aramaic word can also mean young woman, but taken in context with the entire scripture, it is clear she was a virgin. She was also not married at the time of Jesus' conception.

The one thing everyone ought to keep in mind is that it is God who decides what is the way we can approach him, what He requires of us...it is not we who decide these things. Too many look inward to their own desires in their search for "truth", rather than looking outward to God and His desires. It is the most important thing we can do in our lives, in my opinion....which is why we are told to work out our own salvation. Not flippanty, not whenever we feel like it, not how WE want it to be...but "with fear and trembling". Why? Because our relationship with God will determine where and how we spend eternity. What's more important than that?

[Dale 16]

Hi Mike,

I just used the story of Adam & Eve and the reference to virgin as general points to show how we as humans create the "truth" even if its inaccurate. I'm suprised that Adam & Eve isn't in the Bible...always thought it was...goes to show how much I know lol...where does the story come from?? Not being a believer in creation stories, I'm usually puzzled when people say things like ...without God's laws anything goes and people will rob,steal, kill, and partake of all forms of debauchery....why? I don't rob, steal, kill or partake of too many forms of debauchery because...its just common sense wrong. If one doesn't do something only out of fear of punishment then it would seem that the person MAY do those things if there wasn't something to fear or tremble about. If thats the motivation then possibily the person doesn't think those things are wrong in the first place. So what sort of person is that??....the person who follows the "laws" based in a clear and sincere understanding of how ones actions can harm others..uhh..goes to hell on a technicality? and the one who would harm others but doesn't because of fear goes to heaven??...it would seem the misinterpretation of that is way more significant than the Adam & Eve story.

Although in a way fear..for lack of a better word..can be the greatest teacher...the "fear" that comes from the realization that life isn't a dress rehearsal...there is no second chance..and you can only forgive yourself... so make sure you say those things you should say...don't say the things that hurt..help when you can..live life like death IS the end... if it isn't and you open your eyes to all the people you've missed since they've died...GREAT!!! I WAS WRONG!!!....but if it is the end..you did what you could to avoid hurting some of those same people while they were here.

[Mike Williamson 198]

Dale:

Adam and Eve are in the bible, but the "apple" isn't. The fruit Adam and Eve ate was not mentioned, and since we don't have any "Knowledge of Good and Evil" trees these days, the fruit they ate from that tree is likely unlike anything we know today.

As far as people being inherently good, I disagree. I think society has taught most of us what is right and wrong, and we try to live that way, for varying reasons. However, most of us, given the right circumstances, are capable of terrible things. Maybe you're unique, or maybe you don't, won't, or can't recognize those things within yourself. If you look at the world, and the way people treat other people when societal/religious/moral restraints are removed, you begin to understand the evil that man is capable of.

As far as any misinterpretations about who would or wouldn't go to hell, whether those things are technicalities, etc etc, that's a vastly more complicated discussion than I want to get into here. Suffice it to say that God is the one who sets the standards, based on what He desires, not us based on what we desire.

By "fear and trembling" I don't mean we should sit around shaking in fear of God. That phrase simply conveys the gravity of the issue.

[John T 744]

Oneness,

Its sad to see that you have a cynical attitude concerning whether people are inherently good or not. I couldn't disagree with you more on this. Most people I know are good whether there religious or not. Religion teaches us they we are born with original sin(How bad is that to accuse a newborn of being a sinner until he's baptised)

Also answer me this if you can-- If you feel that most people are inherently bad and they need religion as a guidance to be good then how do you explain in the history of man kind the biggest reason why people are murdered/killed is because of RELEGION?? Could they be coerced because of religion to do things inherently bad??

[Dale 16]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the clarification an Adam & Eve.

I don't think I'm unique or blind to the part of myself that could and sometimes does make selfserving choices, but the choices are made with good intent and I honestly don't think this is a unique trait. It seems when people get distracted by the point-counterpoint minutia of "this" idea versus "that" idea that the real "refusal to recognize" the potential of a possibly evil path goes unnoticed and its wouldn't be suprising to have a brawl or lynching.What I've learned to be true based from direct experience and observation is that when something happens that causes all beliefs to fall away..whats left is the true nature of people, and that core nature is good..when there's a disaster a flood, a fire, a earthquake, a tornado, whatever..people risk and often lose their own lives in saving others..I would bet that religious choice plays no part in the decision..the impulse is simply to help......Seriously..how many evil people do you know?? when you go about your life..working with people... walking in shopping centers..losing your car in acres of parking lot..looking at people on the sidwalk as you drive through town...how many are evil??....not how many could be evil..how many are? shouldn't we be judged by the positives of what we are and not the negitives of what we could be???...I want to mention again that I am by no means anti religion...I have on myself.....I honestly think that not only would any religion not be harmed or its precepts violated by a more accurate interpretation of the teachings...the teachings would be helped and adapted and be a vehicle to help mankind.

[CCHSNC 14]

To start off I am not a scholar so I will speak simply and with many typing errors:D

Evelution:

It takes more faith to believe in evelution than the truth of God's word. If evelution is true why have our bodies not evolved to protect themselves from a common cold, the flu, cancer, aids, etc...Why do we still need to buy shoes we've been walking for many of years, shouldn't they come as a standard not an up grade? There really aren't hard facts to support evelution when you get down to it, it's all theory with man made facts.

The Bible:

It is God inspired through the people he chose to write it. It is perfect and true from beginning to end. Now with that said yes man went in there are scewd some stuff up with different translations just look at the new so called bibles today that say homosexuality isn't a sin. Not!!

A Story

I grew up in a religous home. We played church on Sunday morning then Sunday afternoon we would drink beer and curse at the football game on TV. I grew up to hate the church, thinking it was filled with nothing more than fake finger pointers that didn't have their own lives in order. When old enough I stopped going to church. Years later (through God's grace I now Know) I found my self in a God fearing, Jesus loving, Bible beleiving Church that showed me that it's NOT about Religious things, it's about a Relationship with God through Christ spoken through the Holly Spirit.

Facts:

The lost will not see, hear or undrestand the words of God. Look in your Bible that's one of the reasons why Jesus spoke in parables. So only the true believers could understand.

The world has may religions but God intended for there to be just one (Christianity). If you read the old testimate the problems started when all the people who believed in false gods were not wipped out like God ordered.

I titled this post The hard facts because that's what they are. God clearly says you are for me or against me. There is no gray only black and white, just because you think your nice, never killed or raped anyone or you give to charities doesn't meen your going to Heaven.

For those of you who say all religions believe in the same God that is not true. If they did than we would not have so many religions. God does not lie does he? Of course not.

Facts:

Gods loves you the way you are even if you don't believe in him. In fact He loves you so much he sent his only begotten son (Jesus Christ) to make attonment for your sins on the cross at calvery so He can have a relationship with you on earth and in Heaven. When accepting this perfect sacrifice made for you, you will receive Salvation (which means you will be saved from the punishment you desereve for you sin). Some may ask how or what do I do to get this free gift of salvation made possible by

Christs shed blood on the cross.

Romans 10:9-10,13 says 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you beleive and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 13for, Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Fact:

There is a heaven and I don't care what you believe the truth hurts and hear it is. If you are not Saved you will go the Hell. Don't belive me or think I'm a NUT, you will one day find out and I hope it's when you see the face of God saying Welcome my good and faithfull servant.

Love to all in Christ,

His Servant,

Robert Wielhouwer

P.S. If you are not sure about salvation or have some questions please call or email me my info is available to all.

[Dale 16]

Hi Robert,

What I write is meant with no disrespect.

A non-believers answer to some of the questions might include.

Why have our bobies not evolved to protect us from colds,flu,etc. Because the process of evolution happens faster in organisms that have a short life cycle..actually this helps prove that evolution happens..one of the problems with antibiotics and vaccines is the organisims evolve to get around the effectiveness of the treatment. Why haven't we "grown" shoes?..no one is saying evolution is perfect..everything is in constant change, but we have changed considerably and noticeably in the last 100 yrs.

I think a persons personal experiences, no matter how profound and life changing for the person involved...doesn't make it factually accurate ..a seemingly important criteria in a "Hard Facts" post. Please don't be offended but when you say ..this is what God means....basically, accept it or go to hell..... You don't KNOW its true..You BELIEVE its true...thats a big difference

[CCHSNC 14]

No offense taken. And I hope none is taken, but that is the truth. That is what open forum is for. I KNOW it is true. Yes it is as I said before, you either believe or you don't. The gate to heaven is narrow and the gate to hell swings open wide. The Bible supports everything stated in this and my previous post. By the way, evolutionists sure do excuse a lot of things about evelotion. Lots of things made by mans mind sure have a lot of errors. But Gods design is perfect. He made us and that is the way it is. It is because of mans sin that there are things like disease, famine, sickness, etc...... I will pray for those of you who choose to believe the lies of the devil. I am eternally grateful to him for opening my eyes.

Love to all in Christ,

Robert Wielhouwer

[Dale 16]

Robert,

Thanks for not being offended..no offence was intended to anyone. I very much respect your views and strength of your spirit..don't let anyone weaken it and it will serve you well through life.

Dale

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I have held off responding to this thread as religion is a deeply personal topic. I'm not certain as I compose this post, how much or what I will say, but I will share this will you all...

I have expereinced some amazing things in my lifetime. While I realize that science has a place in our lives, I also believe that it does because God created us and gave us many talents, and the world we live in. I have been with loved ones as they near their passing and shortly after and have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit (I suppose that's what it was) and it is the most amazing sense of calm and peace at a time when you have such incredible pain in your life.

I have expereinced that when you just don't know how you will get through something, and you pray, your prayers are answers and there is a way. I believe God takes care of His children. He does listen, but you also should talk to Him.

I believe God is the purest form of love and does not descriminate or love any one of us more or less for being who we are and doing the best we can with our lives. I believe we are supposed to try and be the best people we can be to honor Him, and ourselves as well.

I believe God works through us all, and that during our lives we touch the lives of many, and have impacts in ways we can't possibly understand.

Have you ever had a day where something a stranger said to you really meant something to you? Perhaps you found it to be profound, or just what you needed to hear, or an answer to something you had been thinking or praying about? Angels are everywhere. The Lord works through us all.

I hope my post is not offensive to anyone.

Beth

[Texas Best Service 14]

Beth you couldn't have said it better.

[Mike Williamson 198]

JohnT:

My attitude isn't cynical, it is realistic, educated, and based in scripture. As a person who doesn't accept His Word, I can understand your view of my comments as cynical. It would be wonderful if we could just think positive and ignore mankind's dark side, and make it so. That's not the way it is, however.

Why do people do good things, regardless of their religious background? Because they have been taught by society that these are the things to do. How selfless and giving is a 1 year old?

How bad (or wrong?) is it to call a newborn a sinner? I don't think it is bad or wrong at all. The problem here is that you and I are looking at this from totally different perspectives, and we will probably never agree on this.

You are right that "religion" is the driving force behind many conflicts in mankind's history. Does that make religion a bad thing? Hardly. In my mind, it is further proof of our need of God. It isn't a case of man being tricked by religion into doing terrible things, but of man using religion as a justification for doing terrible things.

One last thing...It isn't "blind" faith. To you it may seem so, and there's no way I could adequately convey to you my experiences in God. For some it may be a blind faith, but that is simply because those folks have never allowed themselves to move beyond that first step of faith. God is very real, very personal, and very willing and desireous of an intimate, personal, and very real relationship with His creation. Once you have truly walked with Him, it doesn't really matter what the doubters have to say...You move from that first step of faith into an ever growing knowledge of Him. Not faith, not imaginations...KNOWLEDGE. I can't imagine going through life without Him.

[John T 744]

All above post from all sides are well written no matter what one's belief is.

Me personally I fall in the middle in this discussion. I believe in God but I don't believe in alot of what the Bible states. I also believe in Evolution because it makes sense to me.

I am holding on to God but sometimes I wonder if I am really doing this because of the guilt that is installed in me thru my Roman Catholic upringing. Who knows. One day I'm sure I will get a better understanding of this but for now I just do the best I can which is to be a Good husband,Father and provider for my family. Also to treat everyone fairly no matter what there race,religion or sexual orientation is(Tough one but working on this).

This is my belief system

[Paul B. 523]

Mary was a virgin and she was also young (thought to have been about 15 at time of conception of Jesus). An Angel conveyed to her about the events to unfold.

An Angel also informed Joseph about the events to unfold and to confirm that Mary will conceive as a virgin. Mary was promised (or if you wish, was engaged) to Joseph.

They were married prior to the birth of Jesus (but the timing is not discussed).

They were in Bethlehem to pay taxes as were many others and most likely had to stay in the manger because all the inns were full of tax payers.

All the details are not written in the Bible, but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence.

Mary being a virgin is important as it was one of over 100 points of the prophecy regarding Christ’s arrival and life on earth. Many argue the points of the prophecies as the test of a true prophet is if any predictions are not accurate. One inaccurate prediction disqualifies you from being a true prophet.

Jews (non-Christian Jews) do not believe all the points of the prophecies have been fulfilled and therefore have not accepted Christ born to Mary.

The definition and description of evolution varies by many, as you can see on these posts.

The evolution of major argument is the perfect gradation from the lowest to the highest in plant and animal structures. For example: Evolutionists have theorized that reptiles by several minute steps have gradually evolved into birds. Yet the fossil records reveal that birds made their presence suddenly and dramatically with full feathers and wings; and no intermediate types of creatures between reptiles and birds have thus far been found.

In other words, there should be evidence of evolution in small or smaller steps.

The same missing links exist between anthropoid ape and mankind.

Darwin and many evolutionists have admitted that geology does not support their theories. Darwin himself made this frank admission:

“Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory.”

Darwin and many other evolutionists have admitted to relying on faith, that with time, these links of the chain will be discovered in the future. In the time from Darwin’s death (over 100 years ago) the gaps have not yet been filled. Yet they still have faith in evolution.

Another scientific point of argument against evolution is the existence of sponges, echinoderms, mollusca, and worms (along with many others) that exist today in the same form they existed millions of years ago without evolving.

If you are an evolutionist, spend some time and study arguments on it and you will find many major gaps in the theory. You will also find many scientists that have spent lifetimes and have admitted not being able to (scientifically) prove their evolution theories.

[Paul B. 523]

My thoughts concerning whether people are inherently good or not.

Mankind is born without knowledge and the ability to distinguish difference between good and bad. We are all born innocent. People are born indifferent and have to learn everything. There are physical limitations (some of which are hereditary) along with limitations that we impose on ourselves that limit our learning.

Example: Little boy sees a bicycle on the neighbors lawn, goes over, gets on and rides it. When he’s finished riding it, he takes it home with him.

Is the boy evil and a thief? I don’t think so, not at that time. He has not yet been taught the meaning of stealing.

An extreme example: Two very young children are playing. One picks up a rock and hits the other on the head with it, killing the other. Is the one yielding the rock a murderer, and or evil? I don’t think so. The child just has not yet learned the dangers of rocks and the fragileness of a human being, or even the meaning of hitting another.

[Dale 16]

Hi Paul,

About people being good or bad...I agree that at the "blank" stage of life, when we're infants we don't know right from wrong or hot from cold until its extreme...but thats a given...and the example of the kid who takes a bicyle, thats already grey area..by the time he/she could walk over and take someones bicycle I'm bettin' they would know the difference between right and wrong..they're just testing the system..lol. But after that phase of life my direct experience has been that people are fundamently good..not all good..nothing is completely either this or that but the natural human tendency is to be good....this is to me a more accurate evaluation of reality..not meaning I find people all good or all bad, but if one is to conclude that peoples hearts and minds are generally evil you would have to have at least half the entire human population on the evil side of the room and that just seems like it must be false...there are just no examples of this being an accurate evaluation of people in general...don't believe me..check it for yourself..keep a score card for a week of all the people you contact in a week.. people you work for, family,friends, ( are family members"different" people somehow exempt from the evil) ..store clerks, etc..just people you meet..and at the end of the week would you feel confident in your heart to judge an least half of them as bad people??..I would bet not..because your human heart/spirit/intent is toward good...and this is not a unique trait.

[Jon 533]

I have been reading this whole thread with interest and have tried to stay out of it for personal reaons. No I am not going to voice my personal feelings as I have pro/con on this whole subject.

I do have a question for all of you and I bet it could be a whole new thread but here goes.

Does believing OR not believing in a God make you a good or bad person?

Said another way if you believe are you good and if you do not believe your bad?

It will be interesting to see the replies here.

[Paul B. 523]

Dale,

I agree with the premise that people generally try to be good or for my taste, described as "not necessarily intent on being bad".

Being bad or evil is generally a choice or path people decide to take. For some, being bad is habit that can't be broken or something they can't seem to control. With some others, it's the lack of ability to recognize the things that they do as being bad.

Like the hit man that went to church and as long as he confessed, and said his hail Mary's, he thought he was OK to do it again. Some see their actions as a job and not a personal thing therefore they are not evil.

That premise is however not enough for GOD, according to the old testament, as it pertains to the 10 commandments:

- Have no other god before me

- Do not take GOD's name in vain

- Keeping Sabbath day holy

- Honoring your mother & father

- Not killing (or is the translated word Murder?)

- Not committing adultery

- Not stealing

- Not bearing false witness

- Not to covet.

Breaking any of these commandments makes a person a sinner (not necessarily a person that intends on being bad, but still a sinner).

This is why Christ gave his life, so that all human beings that believe in him can keep their lives in heaven.

This is not to say that there will not be recourse for our sinful actions, but rather that we will not be separated from GOD.

What could be worse than your soul floating in space for ever with no one to love you or for you to love. Now that could be described as hell!

Keeping track of people for a week is not necessarily a way of finding out if people are good or bad as most will show their good face in public. How many child molesters do we know in public?

If that person is good all week but molests one child for one minute, is that person a good person?

How many adulterers can you see at the grocery store?

I knew a man that was the kindest and gentlest man at work and in public, but beat his wife at home.

So to say people are generally good is somewhat misleading.

How many commandments can I break and still be considered to be generally a good person? Or which one would make me a bad person if I broke it? Or how many times can I steal office supplies from my employer before I am no longer considered a good person? What would I have to do to be considered generally bad or evil - torture one puppy or a kitten?

Can we imagine where we would be without the 10 Commandments, Prophets from GOD and Christ?

The issues we have been discussing are very complex, as I said in one of my earlier posts.

[Dale 16]

Hi Paul,

I think i get what you mean, but it seems to miss my point..I didn't mean to imply that I thought all people WERE good..just that the natural tendency of people is to choose to do whats right over whats wrong. I'm sure that in the course of a week we unknowingly bump into pathologically bad people, but the vast majority of the people aren't.

I don't think being bad is a habit, and if it were ANY habit can be broken..if a person can't control behavior the need help.

The analogy of the hit-man sort of touches on why I think living from the basis of faith in a belief instead of from direct experience is faulty...the hit man intrepreted the laws of his faith to fit his needs without question from the "common-sense" part of his brain...(in alot of religions just accessing that part of your brain that questions your judgements is seen as an attempt to be decieved by satan.)...If he would have exercised reason in decision making and not just fit things to preconcieved notions he probably wouldn't have been a hit man in the first place..lol.

The problem with being forced to believe and live by something literally chisled in stone is that NOTHING is chisled in stone.... the commandments are relative..... thou shall not kill ? how about someone who is about to kill your child? honor thy father and mother ? what if your father is the wife beater or molester?

thou shall not steal ? what if stealing was the only way to obtain medicine for a dying child? thou shall not bear false witness ? what if telling the truth was reason enough for a madman to kill your neighbor??

I hope no one is offended by this perspective, but I think its more fact than it is perspective. None of the commandments say thou shall not.....except when....

How many commandment would you have to break and still be considered a good person ?...it depends on the circumstances.

Which one would you have to break to be considered bad ?...it depends on the circumstances.

What would you have to do to be considered generally bad or evil?....consistantly make self-serving decisions regardless of being conscious of the serious harm it does to others might be one guidline.

I think alot of issues are not actually complex, but simply made so to support a way of thinking....when you do something or see something being done that is wrong...you generally and immediately KNOW its wrong unless you choose to not recognize it. The immediate knowing that its wrong is your true nature.

[Paul B. 523]

I understood your point.

I do disagree on the natural tendency to be good, since I believe it is all relative on how you are raised (environment), what you learn, and how others behave around you. Natural tendency to be good is relative to what is percieved to be good or what is approved by people around you.

A child abused will have tendencies to abuse others unless the problem is corrected.

Gangs in New York and L.A. would not have their reputations if they had the tendencies to be good.

A large group of gypsies raise their children to steal and pick pockets as a vocation. They have no guilt feelings about their jobs. Even after many arrests, they don't think they are doing bad things.

Large group of Palastinians that raise their children from birth to believe that Jews are their enemies and that the only Jews are dead Jews and that suicide killing are OK because it's self defense or an eye for an eye justice approved by GOD.

How many pictures have we seen of children in suicide outfits.

Also look at the muslim groups that are raising their children to hate the infadels (which they believe is justified by their religion).

And the poor souls who believe that there will be 12 virgins waiting for them in heaven if they kill an American during a suicide bombing.

The hit man did what he did because the people around him influenced his behavior. He was around bad people more than he was around good. He used rationalization that was accepted and promoted by his peers.

It's also not easy to break addictive habits (addictions) - ask thousands of serious drug users that have tried to kick their habit even with help. I believe every person has some sort of an addictive trait or tendencies. For some it's cigarettes, for others it's ***, for others it's lying or stealing (cleptomaniacs).

If tendencies were so natural, we wouldn't need so many laws and our jails would not be so full and constantly growing.

As for the common sense part of people's brains - I think that's treading on light ground. LOL Look at people around you driving down the road. How many break the common sense guidelines. Mothers with children driving 80mph one car length behind - children not fastened in. I see at least one of these every day. (Not so funny.)

[Dale 16]

Paul,

I agree with what you're saying but the examples are not representative of the population as a whole....the molested child, the gangbangers, the Palistinians, etc. are products of either generations of deprivation, desperation.apathy,or conscious brainwashing...but alot of these situations exist because of belief. the belief that you have no right to question the way things are..the belief that God requires you to choose this over that.. or the belief that life can be no other way so you just give in. The real question which we'll never know the answer to is even among the gangbanger and molesters, how many honestly would choose that life over a better one. Even among the groups we sterotype.. the Palestianians, Muslums, etc. what percentage are actually terrorists?

Again I think direct experience is for the most part accurate..its too easy to imagine how things are, and imagination is rarely a accurate representation of anything.

[John T 744]

Dale,

I feel your thinking is correct and of course I'm just voicing my own opinion. When I read Paul's responses alot of it is based on that term once again which is "BLIND FAITH" and religion is all about this.

You can even debate about Jesus dying for us because the truth of the matter is this while I consider Jesus an honorable person for standing up for his beliefs he was Hunted down and killed. He was a marked man. I don't think Jesus ever wanted to die. I look at it that he was Murdered as where many great Men in the past.

The other thing that hurts Paul Defense is that Religions all think that there right and most other ones are wrong so what do they do.....They Kill. This my friend is why Jesus was killed and these are the reasons why I see Religion for what it is which is a BELIEF SYSTEM that states where right and YOUR WRONG and cross us and you may pay with your life.

Why do you supposed King Henry started Protestant religion??So he can make Divorce legal and instead of Just killing off fhis wives. Where's the logic to that?? Today there are millions of Protestants.

As for the 10 commandments so many of those rules were broken and the thing about Adultery so many Married couples with kids can get there marriage annuled in the churches eyes like it never happen so they can live with there new found Lovers. Years ago this would take Money and the rich people did just that.

The logic here hurts and being a LOGICAL person that I am you can see my dilemma with Religion.

[John T 744]

Question from Jon Does believing OR not believing in a God make you a good or bad person? .

My guess is that the religious people who are not supposed to not judge others in a negative light will judge you to be bad if you don't follow there religion.

My answer is this- Don't hide behind your religion like a Mike Tyson or soon to be Micheal Jackson. You are either good or bad by your ACTIONS whether you are religous or not. Sounds logical:)

[Dale 16]

Jon,

No fair asking a question and running away!! lol. What do you think?