Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)

[John T 744]

If you look at the news you will see that people put religion way up there. They Live by it and they will die for it. 9-11 for example.

Why do people have blind faith?? My Nephew who is very intelligent and somewhat religious attends Rutgers University. He went to an organize debate titled EVOLUTION v. CREATION. Evolution is more or less stating that we came from a cell and went from there. Creation is that God put us here(Adam and Eve) and we came from there.

The debate in a nut shell went like this....All the facts that the Evolution side put on the table the Creation side tried to tear it apart but the Creation side really couldn't put up any facts for themselves since there side is built on faith and hearsay(Bible which is past down thru men/women)

So I ask why do people put faith ahead of fact? Is it a character flaw that we as humans have?? Is it the guilt that is bread in us that if we don't believe in God we are terrible people and we will go staight to.......

In the shortest words possible since most of us can write a book about this ---Why do you think Faith does thru-out the Planet beat Fact most of the time when it comes to Religion???

[squirtgun 122]

Everyone has done a great job on this thread.This can be a touchy subject and all involved have expressed their personal beliefs in a diplomatic manner.

I will add my .02 here.

10 yrs ago I held my oldest daughter in my arms as she died,I spent the following 4 yrs in a hate relationship with God,I did not pray,I did not attend church,I turned my back 110% from anything that dealt with God.All of this even after my 2nd and 3rd daughters were born.

Those 4 yrs were the darkest in my life,I was sitting in the hunting woods one day,on the verge of killing myself(very literally)when I prayed for God to give me a reason to live.Within seconds, I felt as though, huge warm arms wrapped around me.I felt a presence,that to this day I can not explain but I know it was Gods way of letting me know that even though I had turned my back on Him he had never given up on me.

Do I beleive in God?Yes-- Will I force my religion you?No,but if you ask I will talk with you as long as you need or want me to. --Do I find fault with other religions?No,it basically comes down to this,most beleive in some higher power,but it is not for me a to judge if that God is the same, different ,better or worse than the one I beleive in.

God gave me 4 wonderful children,and while I only had the oldest with me here on earth for 22 months,she was a large part of the man I am today.A man that I pray one day will be fit to enter Gods kingdom.

[John T 744]

Scott,

Sorry about your daughter. This is where I'll say that she is right now in a beautiful place. This is where I think Religion works.

Also your story about you finding GOD is why RELIGION is good. This is where Religion serves its purpose which is comfort. Nothing else I can add here except I'm glad that Religion works for you.

[Paul B. 523]

Dale,

In response to your hypos:

"Hypothetical questions are a valuable tool though...here's one..

would you steal to save your childs life?.."

If all else failed, I would borrow (stealing is taking without intent to return or repay - and I'm not talking of man's laws).

"heres another...would you send your child to hell for breaking one of your rules?"

Is your assumption that GOD will send everyone to hell for breaking one of his commandments one time? That is not my assumption.

My assumption is that there would be some form of punishment or accounting for your deviations. The severity will vary by circumstance. Man will continue to sin until we are perfect, dead or our circumstances change where all desire to sin disappear.

What would I do?

There would be punishment of one type or another for my child.

The level of punishment would depends on a lot of different circumstances... knowing your childs heart would be one...

- If my child was Hitler, I would not have problems separating myself from that child for ever.

In a lot of crimes, several rules are broken at the same time.

For example:

If a married person murders their lovers spouse (murder, covet, adultery).

Back to Creation or Evolution:

How many of you know that the Qur'an talks of the "Big Bang"?

[Mike Williamson 198]

JohnT:

The mistake you keep making is that you're constantly pointing out the things men do when practicing their religion. That's fine, if you're discussing the hypocrisy or the failings of man. The problem is that you're trying to use the hypocrisy and failings of man to invalidate religion. You say that people do this or that wrong, or that they do things that don't make sense, and thus religion makes no sense. My point is that what someone does right or wrong doesn't have any affect upon the message or the truth (or lack of truth) of their particular religion. If I claim to be a Christian and yet murder people, does that make Christianity false? Hardly. It simply makes me a poor follower. For example, you mention a winner of something thanking God, but the loser not thanking God, as if it is evidence that religion is contrary. However, the Bible teaches us to be thankful in ALL things...thus a person who can't be thankful to God in spite of their losing is simply not following their religion in that area.

Just because a priest did terrible things and the "church" covered it up, that does not make the religion that the priest or the church false, nor does it make it true. It simply makes them poor followers of their religion. Do lowball pressurewashers who don't know what they're doing make pressurewashing a bad profession? Should homeowners have more sense than to hire ANY pressure washing contractor just because some are lousy?

You're right, if you're so determined you can argue against religion all day long, and it would matter little what I had to say. I can't "prove" to you that God exists, nor that any particular religion is true or false. I can simply share my experience, and let you do whatever you wish with it. That's between you and God.

The things you've brought up that you're convinced invalidate the t ruth of religion don't drive me crazy at all. I've had plenty of these discussions with folks over the years, and your arguments are nothing new. What you're trying to do is make God fit into the small box you call logic, and it just won't work. Our concept of "logic" and what is "possible" is so limited. God's ways are not our ways.

[Dale 16]

...o.k....o.k... I swear this is my last post on the subject..but the quality of reasoning is taking a nosedive and that is usually a sign of groping for validation... it seems that the fault in reasoning comes from first stating a false interpretation of someone elses point and then simply replacing it with a reasoning that can be argued...this can go on forever.

Mike you state that John is useing the hipocrisy and failings of man to invalidate religion.... to me it seems that John is useing the hypocrisy and failing of CERTAIN interpretations of religion to invalidate the absolute rule of religion.

And we're back to "either".."or"...."If I claim to be a Christian and yet murder people, does that make Christianity false? Hardly"...and I agree..the problem is to then assume that the direct opposite is the only valid option when in fact there are many other possibilities... If I claim to be a Christian and not only not murder people, but adhere to all Christian laws...does that make Christianity true?...Hardly...it just means your a good Christian..Why is this so hard for some to grasp??

You admit you can't "prove" God exists or any religion is true or false... so whats left is simply belief and not fact..not to speak for

John, but for myself.....thats the only point I was trying to get across.

Again useing the method of stating as fact something that is false makes it easy to argue against but none the less it remains a false premise....logic..and may I add reasoning ..is by no means a "small box"...does anyone really believe it is?..logic and reason guide almost all things in our lives...its taken us from caves and raw meat to "smart" homes..cured many diseases... engineered the machines of our lifes and taken us to space..none of these things are the product of clinging to belief when fact proved them wrong.

You apply the same technique in misintrepretating another fact and then easily supporting your argument..you state . "our concept of "logic" and what is "possible" is so limited"....There seems to be little proof of that being true...what was scientific "fantasy" 10 yrs ago is surpassed by reality now, and we seem to be on the threshold of a quantum leap in applications.

"Gods ways are not our ways"...is the kind of thing a shaman might say.

[Mike Williamson 198]

Dale:

Forgive me for not presenting both sides to that arguement...I assumed it would go without saying, since my point was precisely that...The actions of men don't validate or invalidate a particular religion (and do beleive I stated it this way in prior posts).

Faith and fact aren't exclusive...The facts are the facts. God either exists or doesn't. I think a better title to this threat would be Faith vs. A lack of faith. Neither of us can prove that God does exist, nor can we prove He doesn't.

"God's ways are not our ways" is also something the bible says...I may well be something a shaman would say, I have no idea.

Please note then when calling logic a "small box" I went on to explain that I was referring to "our" logic, which is usually flawed to one degree or another. We certainly don't understand everything...in fact, we don't understand most things. Sure, we know a lot more than we used to know, but that's a drop in the bucket...My point was that we take what we currently know (or think we know) of the world, of the universe, etc, and try to make God fit into that "small box".

You say what was fantasy 10 years ago is reality now (though I'm not sure what you're referring to...). That may well be true. Some things that are fantasy now will be reality in 100 years...Does t hat mean that we now know everything, or that in 100 years we'll know everything? Hardly. We know so little, relatively speaking, yet we walk around acting as if we have it all nailed down, and that God just doesn't fit. The truth is that we're blindly stumbling around in a universe we can barely comprehend.

[Paul B. 523]

Dale,

I am not looking or groping for validation - I am perfectly clear in my beliefs. And your statement in the first paragraph can go both ways. There are a lot of scientific things that people have not proven to me but I have faith and believe them. There is not enough time in one lifetime to question every aspect or detail of life (animals, people, plants, etc.) on earth. There is nothing wrong with questioning and searching for answers and GOD also encourages it. Especially when it comes to finding him and establishing a relationship with him. It is much more important to prove his existance than it is to disprove it.

Logic followed a heck of a lot of trial and error, learning and many have died for the word "logic" or in lieu of their logic. Science is a lot of trial and error.

We were given the ability to learn, make judgements and decisions and therefore to have or use logic. If we were dogs, we would still use logic for some things, except dogs do not believe in either science or GOD.

However, without the initial guidance by the words of GOD, we don't know where human being would be today. Would we be much smarter than dolphins? Faith gives us strength to continue inspite of many failures. It's not always logic that creates success.

I'll give you an example of faith (true story):

Two brothers took on the challange to set a record for flying a plane around the the world without refueling. One brother built the plane and the other flew it. The one that flew the plane, never questioned his brother on how he was going to make the plane or how it was going to achieve the plan. When the plane was finished, he flew the plane around the world in 9 days and 3 hours. - The pilot had faith in his brother since there was never a plane built before that could accomplish this feat. Logic didn't make him successful. If he would have used logic, he would have never piloted the plane as there was an extremely large risk of dying.

I believe, if with an open mind, one reads the Bible, Torah and Qur'an, that person will find enough circumstantial evidence that shows a supreme being (GOD) providing direction to his children.

All 3 talk of the same GOD. Some of the direction is scientific enough to determine that people during those time periods would not have had enough knowledge to provide that scientific information by themselves (many at this point will argue for aliens, as this is easier for them to believe than GOD). There is a lot more circumstantial evidence in those 3 documents to prove GOD than most courts use to send a man to prison for life or death row.

There were many prophets that were provided the same information by GOD or GOD's angels. Many unrelated prophets telling similar stories provides a great deal of circumstantial evidence. The credibility and motives of each prophet is also questioned to help establish the truth. Knowledge, circumstantial evidence, common sense, logic, faith, open mind and a whole lot of reading can open the door for many to see.

I also believe that you can easily rule out a lot of religions as being not of GOD or having distorted GOD's words, but it takes some amount of research and studying. GOD does tell us that there will be many false prophets and he does give guidance on how to identify groups that have distorted his words or perform against his direction.

If I can't prove to you that GOD exists, does that mean he doesn't? Each person has to get there for themselves.

As long as you search, there is a good chance you will get there.

If you stop searching, it's hard to tell where you end up.

For the believers and interested ones, I suggest keeping on eye on the events of the middle-east. There are many things that are predicted about the events in that area. The wall that the Jews are building is (I believe) one of those events.

Godspeed!

[Dale 16]

...O.K....really..no kidding now ...THIS is the last post... Mike, thanks for the response, I do appreciate it..though it may not seem like it...my point has always been that things are in constant change and because of that we must be open to accepting change in our understanding of how things work and their underlying forces..though I agree that fact is fact... what we accept as fact must be open to change if and when we are faced with new information....so "God either exists or doesn't"...maybe or maybe not..."God" may be a force or phenomenon we don't understand or are capable of understanding yet..or maybe its all bull and we have to accept that....we'll only get there if we're open to possibily accepting the need for a total change in the way we view life....this applies to firm believers and firm non-believers. A "believer" who refuses to accept new information lives with a blinding agenda...A "non-believer" who refuses to accept new information also lives with a blinding agenda.

[One Call Power Wash 500]

Squirtgun,

I am so sorry that you lost your first born. Some would say that this might have been a test of your faith. I believe God does work in mysterious ways and he has a plan for all of us in some fashion shape or form. Believe in your heart that your daughter is looking down on you and how proud she is of you. I am happy that you found your answer. I have also experienced this warm feeling that you spoke of.

I wont go into detail of why I asked for a sign but believe me, he gave me that sign.

I am not a church goer, nor do I spread the word of the gospel. I believe in my own heart and he has answered my prayers so many times before.

I resort back to my first post on this subject where I say for everyone to take a look around. Look at the colors, look at the love ones, look at the mountains, look at everything around you including the smallest of things and you will find your way.

Squirtgun, I respect you and your openness and I thank you for sharing this tragic but eye opening read.

[John T 744]

I'll add this in my closing here.

GOD/Religon is great if its mixed in with LOGIC but and here is the big BUT

Man has to answer for his actions and hiding behind a Religion to answer it is flat out wrong. Also when they say he will answer to his GOD -still no good to me. He will answer to us his fellow Human beings which is why we have our Judicial sytem in place which tries but doesn't always succeed to bring out the FACTS.

This is also why I will never except that someones kills because of ALAH or any other GOD. Once again do the right thing and be logic and use COMMON SENSE. If your child needs a Blood Transfusion but your religion doesn't allow it then you must make the LOGICAL CHOICE to save your Child then pray to your GOD afterwords.

Thats it I'm off the Podium..........

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Man has to answer for his actions and hiding behind a Religion to answer it is flat out wrong. Also when they say he will answer to his GOD -still no good to me. He will answer to us his fellow Human beings which is why we have our Judicial sytem in place which tries but doesn't always succeed to bring out the FACTS.

Why can't he answer to both? I mean sure here in Americal we have a judicial system set up to handle those who break our laws, but dealing with people on a more personal level is up to God to do, and we don't know the outcome of anyones dealings with Him except for our own when we have to face him ourselves. Doesn't seem to be an either or thing to me....seems a both thing...

Just my opinion...

Beth

[Scott Stone 604]

This is a classic legal response, that there is no higher law than the law of man.

Personally, I believe that we are held accountable to the laws of man here on earth. There is also a higher law, that is the law of God. There are times that things happen that are legal, but are not moral and ethical. The laws that govern morality, and ethics, are the laws of God. Often, people think that these are things that are instilled in parents, but, usually, if someone views it they realize that if someone does not see what is wrong with doing something, the thought that something is not wrong was instilled by parents at a very young age.

Trying to say that the laws of man supplant the laws of God is a fallacious argument. The laws of man are an imperfect being or group of beings trying to interpret the laws of God.

Scott Stone

[Paul B. 523]

Scott,

I couldn't have said it any better.

A believer's problem arises when man's law is in conflict with GOD's law.

[Dale 16]

Scott

I'm not Dale..he quit posting...I really want to be able to connect the dots in this type of reasoning and maybe understand its ability to convince people that the reasoning isn't convoluted..if someone can help me understand how it works I'd appreciate it.

It seems like most of the replies in favor of higher powers take the same tack and the way I read it, it goes like this...make a statement in a way that implies its true and then extrapolate on it and if the fact is unprovable one way or the other ..all the better...OR.. respond to a statement that no one made and build a case on that.

Scott..as I'm typing this, your post is the only one I can see so allow me to use it as an example...."This is a classic legal response, that there is no higher power than the laws of man"...who said that?? or "There is also a higher law, that is the law of God"...how do you arrive at the conclusion that this is a accurate statement?...or "trying to say that the laws of man supplant the laws of God is a fallacious argument"...I don't recall anyone making that argument....

I started this post by saying.."I'm not Dale..he quit posting"....do you believe its true just because I said it..or would you require proof before you could accept it?

[Mike Williamson 198]

Dale:

The thing you have to understand is that I, as a believer, am coming at this from the perspective that God exists, that His word is true, etc etc. To me, there is no question that God exists. When I say that I am held to God's law, I am taking that from the bible. If you don't accept the bible as true, or if you don't accept that there is a God, then it is very difficult for us to communicate in this area (and I'm not saying you don't believe in either, or that you do). Much of what I have said here is what I believe, not what I can prove to you. God has proven it to me, in many many ways...However, that proof is not something I can pass along in such a way that will convince anyone without an excercise in faith...that is, afterall, what God asks of us. Begin walking with Him in faith. It is this exact thing that makes it hard to argue the truth of God and His word with someone who rejects it.....there's no real common ground to begin or continue a discussion or debate.

My acceptance of your statement that you're not you is a poor comparison to accepting God on faith. There's plenty of evidence for the existence of God and His communication with mankind for those who desire to see it. Some don't, and never will.

[Dale 16]

Hi Scott,

Thanks.

I hope you don't think i singled out your post..like I said it was the only one I could see while typing a response.

I completely accept as fact that your beliefs and faith are creating a better person of you.. and that positive effect will spread to others because of your actions.

I'm just asking anyone for a little insight into how this works and more importantly why people think that this is the only valid view to base one life on.. You and others have said things similar to ..God has proven His existence to me in many, many ways.... and then imply that none of the many, many ways can be explained... how can this be??anything that someone has a firm grasp of can be explained....Faith is what God asks of us..... because we're talking about Christianity I'll use the Bible...where in the Bible does it say that?.....and if one can find a verse that supports it if intrepreted in a certain way..how does that make it true?..again it seems that presumptions are stated as fact when that may not be the case....a lack of faith "is the exact thing that makes it hard to argue the existense of God and His word."..like its a special case..... in ANY difference of opinion its not a lack of faith in the other persons view that makes it difficult ( if there was faith in the validity of the other persons view, there would be no difference of opinion in the first place), ..its that the person that holds the opposing view doesn't think the other view is supported by fact...and that is what makes it difficult to accept...To function from this basis is normal...we all do it..

" There's plenty of evidence for the existence of God and His communication with mankind".... like what?....I don't "reject" the idea..."reject" implies a blanket refusal to accept a different view....I'm all ears....when a persons stance starts to run out of gas, the usual response is to just quit trying..so I just had to respond because I believe there's value in questioning assumptions.

[squirtgun 122]

Dale,

I know of no human that has all the answers about God or religion.I can only speak of the experience that I had,as to why I know there is a God in my life.

I know I have seen people who confess to being non religious and non believers ,suddenly turn to a God they don't believe in when they are in a crisis.

The clear cut answer you seek can only be obtained from within you.This thread demonstrates how a simple converstaion if allowed to gain momentum could possibly lead to the end of friendships,splitting of families and in the worse case scenerio wars.

Good Luck in your search Dale,I hope you find what you seek.

P.S. I rarely talk about my daughter outside of my family and a few close friends,10 yrs later it is still the hardest thing I have ever dealt with.I would never wish the loss of a child on my worse enemy,it is heart wrenching experience that you never fully recover from.I Thank God for the time he gave me with her and I know that she smiles down on me and her brother and sisters everyday.Thanks to you all for allowing me to share this.

[John T 744]

OK back on the Podium:)

I can only conclude that Religion is based on Blind Faith and you shouldn't Question it because if you do you will fall into my catagory where Religion will never make sense.

Its like My Father in-law told me a while back "You either believe in Religion and accept it or you don't. You have to have Faith." My answer to my "Never miss Church" Father in-law is I believe in some of the things concerning religion but not all of it. If God wants to condemn me to Hell for being Honest there really isn't much I can do about it unless I lie and that won't work.

In the End I can only hope that if there is a Heaven God will let me in because he/she can do anything that he/she wants no matter what anyone says here. GOD may not be as predicable as alot of Religious people think that he or she is.

Either way I enjoyed this Thread that I started. It stayed very Professional.

[Paul B. 523]

We have no way of knowing if it's Dale typing or not.

It could be his sister, mother, brother or anyone else.

Can Dale prove to me that he typed all the messages?

Can Dale prove to me that no other person has access to his computer?

There is no way he could ever prove it to me. He has no facts to prove it.

Science has not proven the evolution of man from a single cell or even from ape to present day form. They admit themselves that many of their theories are in faith that someday the gaps that are missing will be filled. But for now it's only their faith.

Do you believe in the single cell to present man evolution theory?

I have a feeling that you have already made up your mind and convicted the accused and now you want us to prove him innocent. That is how I view your perspective. There is nothing unusual about this approach, and the approach by itself doesn't make you a bad person. Are you willing to accept circumstantial evidence? (just as the courts of any state would.)

What I can suggest to you is to start or continue reading the Bible, Torah and Qur'an. I have many, many other books I can recommend, along with several television/video documentaries.

If you want proof, YOU should start the search for it yourself. No one can convince you, as you must convince yourself.

There is more benefit to YOU for finding proof then for you to reject it without a thorough search. After all, if you believe and you are wrong, what's the worst that can happen?

But if you refuse to search and refuse to believe and you are wrong...

As any judge would say: Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

There are a lot of things that are not in the 3 major books I named, but are in other documents that help to validate a lot of things in these books. Many different prophets from different areas, occupations and backgrounds have received the messages of GOD and they wrote them down for future generations. They all wrote very similar stories but from different perspectives. All of these prophets have been scrutinized for hundreds of years for their motives, and their work has been scrutinized. Much information is available in many formats.

- Mohammed's Qur'an exists in his original writing and is preserved for all mankind to scrutinize. One of the things that stands out in it to me is the passages about galaxies of the universe and how it conveys the message of the "Big Bang".

I don't think science and astronomy was far enough along to talk of the "Big Bang".

- In the Old Testament, one story that stands out in my mind is the direction GOD provides man to not deffecate within his camps, but gives very specific directions on what to do. This story also appears in the Torah.

- The Qur'an also has the story of Mary and Jesus, and the virgin birth of Jesus. Why would one religion validate another and why would one religion admit that the Jew's GOD and the GOD of Christians is the same as theirs? At least 3 major religions with the same GOD. Does it sound like a conspiracy? Or does it sound like circumstantial evidence.

- 003.160 If Allah helps you, none can overcome you: If He forsakes you, who is there, after that, that can help you? in Allah, then, Let believers put their trust.

- 003.177 Those who purchase disbelief at the price of faith harm Allah not at all, but theirs will be a painful doom.

Lets talk about evolution:

Fact #1 Evolution runs contrary to the Second Law of Thermodynamics which describes the universe as a wound-up clock which is slowly winding down. (Do we agree so far?) Instead, evolution has all life being built up from the simple to the most complex.

Fact #2: A builder might expose brick, sand, nail, paint, wires, wood and other building materials to heat and energy of the sun and to the refreshing rains, but these objects would never by themselves unite and form a house! (Do you believe it could happen?)

Fact #3: Lets address the unlikely probability that a living cell would by random process be formed. (Put your hat on and get out your calculators because we are going for a ride.) All life consists of only left-handed protein molecule chains. The smallest living thing that could duplicates itself would require 239 of these protein molecules. What are the chances that the first protein molecule would form all their amino acids into left handed chains? (The minimum number of amino acids in a protein is 410.) But then, even if this occurred in one protein, it would have to be repeated again 238 times in the other protein molecules.

Chances of this occurring are 1:10 to the 29,345 th power.

That's a 1 followed by 29,345 zeroes. Flip a coin that many times and see if it will come up as tail that many times in a row.

In my next post, lets put science to the test and talk about all the holes in how they calculate the age of the world and man.

[Paul B. 523]

John,

GOD does not tell you to have "Blind Faith" but he does say to have "Faith in Him". He also does not tell you that you shouldn't question religion but contrary is His direction that you should explore, question and challange. The more you question, the more will come to you, but you should also have some faith and ask for guidance.

You will find answers, as long as you keep searching.

Godspeed!

[Mike Williamson 198]

Dale:

What I mean when I say that God has proven Himself to me in many ways that I can't explain to you is that, while I can share those experiences with you, they don't become real to you just because you hear them. It is like trying to explain something you have seen to someone who hasn't seen it. You can share what you've seen, describe it in detail, but the sharing won't change the fact that the other person has not seen it. It doesn't prove anything to them, unless they take your words by faith. I certainly don't expect you to believe what I say simply because I say it. My experiences don't equate to proof on your part. I can tell you of countless times God has spoken to me through His word, through the words of others, or through other means. However, my telling you these things doesn't give you proof that they are true.

Of course I think I'm right! If I thought I was wrong I'd be searching for what was right! Does that mean I think I know everything about God, or about what He desires of us? Does that mean that I'm right in everything I think I'm right in? Not at all. It simply means that I believe God has led me to certain levels of truth. He's still leading me, and will be doing so until the day I die or stop following. I realize that some in this world don't like the concept, especially where religion is concerned, of saying "This is right, and that's wrong". That doesn't change what I believe to be right. It isn't simply "blind faith" as JohnT has mentioned several times in this thread. That would simply be taking a concept or idea at face value without any thought or evidence whatsoever.

You want to know where in the bible it says that God expects faith? It is prevalent throughout scripture. Even a cursory reading of the bible reveals this...it is probably the clearest and most prevalent message in scripture. Here are just a couple examples...

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

You mention finding a verse and then interpreting it in a certain way. As I've said, the message faith is clear. It isn't ambiguous. It is probably one of the few areas that virtually every bible scholar can agree upon...God demands faith.

How does this make it true? It either is true, or it isn't. That's a question each has to answer for themselves, whether to accept that the bible is true, or to reject it. There's plenty of things about the bible that indicate that it is in fact true, but that's a much too complex and involved discussion to get into here. If a person seriously wants to find out for themselves one way or the other, there's plenty of information out there.

JohnT:

You keep saying religion is based on blind faith, but that simply isn't the case. I understand why you think that, and I certainly don't expect my saying so to change your mind. It is simply a case of you not having the same experinces with God that I, and many others, have. Essentially what you're saying by calling my faith blind faith is that you don't believe that I have had any interaction with God, despite my testimony to the contrary. It appears that there's not much that I could say to change that.

[Dale 16]

Hi Paul,

You shouldn't believe my past posts were written by me, and thats at the core of my posts..don't believe something just because someone says its so...are you demanding the same level of proof of your own conclusions?...I could prove its me typing these posts..I could make a video of me typing these posts and then pushing the "submit reply" button...but then how do you know the person typing is "Dale"...well I could send a copy of my birth certificate notorizied documents of testimony and pictures of family..etc. A lot of trouble to prove the obvious...claiming that I'm me is by no means a extaordinary claim...claiming there's proof of a creator is..extaordinary claims require extraordinary proof...would you agree?

I'll agree that science hasn't found all the answers to conclusively prove evolution ....religion hasn't proven the existence of a creator....would you agree?....so in a sense that makes it even. would you agree with that?...if you do we have a "null start"..all preconcieved notions are off the table and the the case for both views starts with rebuilding the case for each view based in the facts..if this is done it seems like evolution has an edge.

There stills seem to be convoluted reasoning going on..maybe I'm wrong but thats the way it seems.

Paul, I haven't made up my mind and have stated this many times in my previous posts.....but it seems to me that you have...the reasonings are just becoming too complacated and convoluted in my opinion.

You claim the shortcomings of science .....but use it as proof when it suits you ....i.e. useing the law of thermal dynamics...yet seem to claim that it is me useing circumstantial evidence to state my view...You're not?? fill me in please!

AGAIN it doesn't seem like simply stating something that is written by the believers of a certain position is proof of anything but their position... it doesn't seem unusal to me at all that 3 books written by believers in creation would contain almost identical story lines...they all come from the same geographical area.

The end result of the reasoning of belivers seem to be to throw the burden of proving THEIR position on the backs of the people that hold the opposite veiw....i.e. YOU prove MY position is true!!

There were many stories of similar nature...heres one..see if you can guess who the story is about..

"In the first century of the Common Era, there appeared at the eastern end of the Mediterranean a remarkable religious leader who taught the worship of one true God and declared that religion meant not the sacrifice of beasts but the pratice of charity and piety and the shunning of hatred and enmity. He was said to have worked miracles of goodness, casting out demons, healing the sick,raising the dead. His exemplary life led some of his followers to claim he was a son of God, though he called himself a son of a man. Accused of sedition against Rome, he was arrested. After his death, his disciples claimed he had risen from the dead, appeared to them alive, and ascended to heaven.....who was this man?...His name was Apollonius of Tyana."...how many thought it was Jesus?

Who ever claimed that wood sand wire paint etc. could turn themselves in to a house ...I missed that post.

Where in the Bible does it recommend a challenge and question its word?...I'm just trying to understand..

[John T 744]

Mike Williamson,

The reason I say you have to have blind faith with religion is a simple one. Since most if not all points about religion is passed down thru Hearsay and the Bible which was written by man just about all of it can't be proven. So since we all know most of it can't be proven what does that tell you??

It tells you that you either believe it or you don't. If you do its only because of faith and since just about everything in religion can't be proven you now have what is called BLIND FAITH.

The Human mind is easily tricked and I think Religion plays off of that. Alot of Religious leaders know this which is why you will see someone like a Luis Farakkan from the Nation of Islam rise to the top of his religion because he see's this as clear as day. As does Graham, Orel Roberts, all TV evangelist,...just about all of them.

[Paul B. 523]

There is nothing I can "say" that will "prove to you" that "GOD" exists.

"You claim the shortcomings of science .....but use it as proof when it suits you ....i.e. useing the law of thermal dynamics...yet seem to claim that it is me useing circumstantial evidence to state my view...You're not?? fill me in please!"

I never said "I don't believe in science" and I never said that "circumstantial evidence was not a valid method to prove things by". On the contrary, you have somehow twisted things out of context. I believe in science, but science has failed and in many cases can be circumstantially proven to be in error, especially when it comes to evolution. And when I say evolution, I don't mean minute changes or man's growth from an embrio to an old man but the evolving of a single cell to a thinking, capable of talking human being.

If GOD appeared to "you", would you believe it, or would you call it a holucination? (I'm not looking for an answer - I can guess your arguments.)

About your posts being from you or not:

My point was that you couldn't prove "factually" that all of "your" previous posts were written by "you". However, it could be proven circumstantially as there are many ways to do that (this would be considered circumstantial evidence). If the circumstantial evidence is strong enough, we will believe it without having to go through extraordinary measures, all of which could still be challanged if someone wanted to challange it.

"Claiming there's proof of a creator is..extaordinary claims require extraordinary proof...would you agree?"

For a lot of people that is true, for some, it is not.

Again I will state that it has been proven to me that there is one GOD. There is enough evidence for ME, as I have spent many, many years over my life time reading and watching programs, searching and developing a relationship with GOD. GOD has (directly or indirectly) guided me enough to make me feel good about what I believe in. ...and my faith in GOD is continually strengthened.

Here is a little ditty that some may appreciate:

Wally had started to develop a relationship with GOD and thru many conversations, GOD had assured him that whenever he was in trouble, he would save him.

One year, there was a flood, and it was devestating. The water was rising and certainly death would come if Wally didn't leave his home. As the water was rising, Wally went to his 2nd story balcony and waited to be saved. A man on a raft floated by and hollered to Wally "Come, jump on the raft so we can go to safety." To which Wally replied, "Go on, GOD is coming to save me!"

The flood was rising and Wally had to move to the roof of his home for safety. Along came a boat with a man and a dog in it. The man shouted to Wally "Come, jump into the boat so we can get to safety." To which Wally replied, "Just go on, GOD is coming to save me!"

The flood was still rising and Wally was now on the top of the chimney hanging on. From out of nowhere, a helicopter appeared and someone yelled from within. "Grab the rope and climb in for surely you will die if you don't." To which Wally replied, "Go on, GOD is coming to save me!"

Upon entering heaven, Wally demanded to know from GOD why he let him down and why he didn't come to save him.

to which GOD said, "But I sent you raft, a boat and a helicopter!"

"....religion hasn't proven the existence of a creator....would you agree?...."

I can't say if religion by itself has proven it, because belief is different for everyone. For some, religion has proof, while for others, all the PROOF in the world will NOT be enough (and this has been predicted and has been proven). I have offered many things in my previous posts as evidence, so you can take those and continue your OWN search to prove to yourself.

You state: "if you do we have a "null start"..all preconcieved notions are off the table and the the case for both views starts with rebuilding the case for each view based in the facts..if this is done it seems like evolution has an edge."

If we have a "null start", how can evolution have an edge?

To quote your words: "There stills seem to be convoluted reasoning going on..maybe I'm wrong but thats the way it seems."

You state: "Paul, I haven't made up my mind and have stated this many times in my previous posts.....but it seems to me that you have...the reasonings are just becoming too complacated and convoluted in my opinion."

Dale, you caught me, I think! It is true that I have made up my mind. As I said I have spent over 30 years examining, asking, probing, filtering and challanging. I've read hundreds of books, watched many documentaries, listened to many views and challanges. Maybe it's been 40 years or close to 50 years - I can't honestly recall when the first time I asked about GOD.

As may be obvious from the above paragraph, "Blind Faith" is not the reason that I believe in GOD. It would have been great if I had "Blind Faith", as my life would have been much less complicated.

Here is some of my logic:

When you argue FOR evolution, you are NOT searching for creation and GOD, but are searching to strengthen your belief in evolution.

The thought process of "If you are not with me, you are against me!" applies as follows in this analogy:

In the beginning of WWII, many countries wanted to stay neutral (including the US). At this point the statement in quotes is not very logical and has very little merit for most, except those that are directly affected. The statement applies, but applies to a smaller circle of people.

As Hitler exposed his evilness, the statement in quotes became more logical and grew with momentum to a larger group of people.

When the autracities were exposed, the quoted statement had

moved to its most strength and widest circulation. However, the statement had never changed its meaning to the people that were always directly involved. In otherword, it said: "I'm asking for help because I'm weak agains my opponent, and if you don't come and help me, you will be against me, as I shall perrish."

If the above analogy doesn't make sense to you, please don't blame religion for it, but assume that I did not do a very good job of communicating my thoughts and feelings.

Are you offering another option or solution to Creation and Evolution?

Or could you say that if evolution can be disproved than Creation is the only other option?

What do you think will happen to you when you die?

What do you hope will happen to you when you die?

I will once again say that:

There is more benefit to YOU for finding proof then for you to reject it without a thorough search. After all, if you believe and you are wrong, what's the worst that can happen?

But if you refuse to search and refuse to believe and you are wrong...

I DO NOT need to PROVE to anyone that GOD exists. However, if I can help someone find GOD, it helps me to know that another soul has a chance to have an everlasting relationship with GOD. For we are our brother's keepers.

Now,

If we want to continue these discussions, I would suggest that we keep each post to one or two specific thoughts. Some of the questions and re-examinations are getting complex and time consuming. I am willing to devote some time, but not as much as this post required. And I'm sure most of you are tired of reading my lengthy thoughts.

[Mike Williamson 198]

Paul:

While I may not agree with everything you have said in your posts in this thread (though I do agree with most), you have done an extraordinary job of explaining where you're coming from, and why. You said what I have been trying to say all along...I can't prove any of this to anyone, all I can do is share what I know and what I've experienced, and if that helps someone find God, or grow just a little closer, then I've done all God expects of me.

There's a lot of circumstantial evidence for the existence of God. People just have to want to see it.