Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)

[John T 744]

If you look at the news you will see that people put religion way up there. They Live by it and they will die for it. 9-11 for example.

Why do people have blind faith?? My Nephew who is very intelligent and somewhat religious attends Rutgers University. He went to an organize debate titled EVOLUTION v. CREATION. Evolution is more or less stating that we came from a cell and went from there. Creation is that God put us here(Adam and Eve) and we came from there.

The debate in a nut shell went like this....All the facts that the Evolution side put on the table the Creation side tried to tear it apart but the Creation side really couldn't put up any facts for themselves since there side is built on faith and hearsay(Bible which is past down thru men/women)

So I ask why do people put faith ahead of fact? Is it a character flaw that we as humans have?? Is it the guilt that is bread in us that if we don't believe in God we are terrible people and we will go staight to.......

In the shortest words possible since most of us can write a book about this ---Why do you think Faith does thru-out the Planet beat Fact most of the time when it comes to Religion???

[CCHSNC 14]

John,

You are absolutely correct. Jesus did not want to die. He pleaded with his father, God, that if there was any other way other than him being crucified, he wanted the other way. But in the end he submitted to his fathers will. The reason the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus is because he taught about absolutes. He did not teach that the commandments applied to every situation except when you feel they do not apply to you. They are absolutes. Now and Yesterday, the same. He was saying there was only one way into heaven and they did not like it. He taught that Faith, not Works, got you into heaven. He did not teach kill anyone who does not agree, unlike Muslims whose Koran teaches you anyone who opposes you whould be killed.

He taught absolutes which is the main reason why people do not like Christianity (which is not Religion, by the way). There is a right and a wrong, a good and a bad. There is no in between. It is so sad that the Catholic church gives people such a bad taste in their mouth when they think of God. Catholisism and Christianity are two totally different things. There is only One way to God and that is through Jesus Christ! Like I said, absolutes.

Now about the goo/evil question. I don't know what makes a "good" person, but if you live your life like Jesus said, I think you would have no worries. Your beleifs do not make you a good or bad person. I know lots of "good" people who have not accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior and I know some people who would be classified as "not so good" who have. So where does this leave us......I guess we will find out when we stand before God and he tells us if we lived the life of a "Good and Faithful Servant".

Love in Christ,

Robert

[Mike Williamson 198]

Jon:

Of course believing in God doesn't make one good or bad...the bible tells us that even the devil believes in God...and we all know he's not a good dude.

Dale:

The concept of judging anyone good or bad based on what you see is faulty. You're judging that person based only on what you see, and only God sees the heart, and only God can judge a person. We all make mistakes and do things that are wrong in our lives. We ALL fall short of God's criteria of "good". We ALL have inherited Adam's fallen nature...regardless of our actions in life. We are ALL sinners, falling short of the glory of God, even babies. Not because that baby has done terrible things, but because the sin nature of Adam is passed from generation to generation. Thus the need for Christ's cleansing and covering blood.

I do believe that shed blood applies to those who have not yet reached a point in their lives where they can understand their need for God, and their own lost condition. I don't believe a God of love will cast away an infant who died at birth simply because they never got the chance to recognize their need for God and act on it.

John:

I don't judge you good or bad, whether you embrace my religion or not. That is up to God. God's people are not called to judge, but to teach. What people do with that teaching is between them and God. You are correct that many hide behind their religions, and many abuse and mis-use their religion in many ways. That does not validate or invalidate the religion, no more than an abuse of our legal system invalidates our legal system.

What it all comes down to is this: God sets the rules. We don't. It is up to each of us to seek out what it is God expects of mankind, and to act or refuse to act accordingly. That is what we will be judged by. Not our sins. We were born sinful, and piling more sins on top of that won't make any difference at all...If we embrace what God has called us to, sincerely, then willful sinning won't even be an issue. We will be judged on that decision and that decision alone.

[Mike Williamson 198]

JohnT:

Actually, King Henry didn't start the protestant religion, Martin Luther did.

As I posted a minute ago, people's mis-use of God's Word doesn't invalidate that Word. You keep mentioning that religious people kill those who don't believe like them, and in some cases you are right. On the other hand, the overwhelming majority don't. Of those who do, or have in the past, I believe they use religion to attain their own goals. It isn't religion that has caused them to do the things they have done, it is their own selfish and often evil purposes. If it weren't religion, it would be some other tool they'd find to attain their goals.

What I would tell anyone in your shoes is to stop looking at man's mis-use of religion, and look at the religion itself. Don't look at what a particular church has done, whether good or bad, in the name of their religion, but rather look at what the religion itself teaches. There are many cases throughout history of men using Christianity to do terrible things to people. This, however, isn't the message of Christianity. Here's an example...If a cop in a small town takes bribes, extorts money from honest folks, and abuses his law-given authority to hurt and abuse the citizens of his jurisdiction, does that mean the laws of that town are wrong, illogical, evil, or invalid? Hardly. It simply means that someone is mis-using the authority given by those laws. It doesn't mean the legal system should be scrapped.

[Mike Williamson 198]

Dale:

The commandment "thou shalt not kill" in interpreted literally to mean "thou shalt not murder". God himself directed the killing of people.

The problem with taking God's word as anything but literal (except where it is clear it is not literal, as in the parables) is that you then open the door to something the bible speaks out against, private interpretation of the Scriptures. God said what He meant, not what He might have meant given any number of variables.

[Jon 533]

Dale I don't run, you have no idea how much it took for me to step in and talk about one of two things never to be discussed openly with the world.

Religion and politics.

Now that I have seen some answers I will add to what I said, I had this in that post but before I posted deleted it.

Take the gangs, most are Mexican and Blacks and most are religious and go to church weekly yet they go out and rape, kill, rob and do all those other bad things gangs do.

They were no born bad in my mind, we are all born innocene but it is how we are brought up that turns us good or bad 90% of the time.

Grow up in a family that the father, brother, uncle and even the mom are in gangs, steal and do drugs that is the only life the kids know and are taught that it is ok to do those things.

Exactly how they can go to church and hear otherwise then go out that same Sunday afternoon and rape some girl, rob a store and go home and get drunk is beyond me.

Thoughout life from day one people have stolen to survive, stolen from other tribes, other people and even from family.

Surely you would not say that was wrong, it was survival back then.

Sleeping with another guy when you a guy or female when your female is suppose to be a sin, so why then is it now ok to do so?

There is a sinner in each and every person, some just hide it better then others.

Guess I sinned twice now, I promised myself I would not post in this thread and I just did it twice now.

[John T 744]

If Religion is true then which religion is right because there not all the same?? Why does one religion have a major dislike for another??

The answer would be that Christianity, Moslem,Jewish, etc. think there religion is the rightous one and the other one really isn't which can cause that dislike.

But if you ask what is the right thing to do in life as far as being good you would get a universal answer which is to be good to eachother regardless of relegion and once again it falls down to logic.

Religion is a Belief and logic is a fact. The choice is anyone's...

[Dale 16]

Hi Mike,

I don't really understand why you would think that judging a person by seeing what they do is faulty just stating it is doesn't make it so...what other way is there?? blinding oneself to what is obviously happening in front of your own eyes or walking around being suspicious of everyone doesn't seem like a BETTER idea.The misunderstanding may be because it seems from your comment " You're judging only by what you see" in a sort of fleeting, easy to be fooled snapshot sort of way is what I meant. Thats not what I meant..thats not how human interaction works for the most part. Seeing is the first base step, after that the "seen" information is interperted by a huge data bank of past infomation, experiences,situations,etc. that judge the accuracy of what we're being shown, or told or whatever...i.e. is whats being presented to me accurate? All I'm saying is that for the most part this system of judging is accurate...the con's and scam artists are not that prevelent, and that is a good thing.

I'll bet you use this system to good result everyday from deciding whether the sales pitch on the cleaner you may use will be as good as it says and you make the judgment based on past experience, information from other people or knowledge of the ingredients on the lable.....if your pw ing something, your useing your eyes and past experience to use a technique that works...and if someone trys to tell you to use a method that you know will tear up the wood..I'll bet you won't do it even if the information come from a top selling book.

One of the interesting but often overlooked things that happens in these type of disscussions is the "pick and choose" way ideas are used to prove a point...if a bit of information is used to discredit the opposite view ( the reason I believe Robert states the importance of absolutes)... the information should also be valid in disproving identical reasonings. If I misinterpretated "thou shall not kill" and kill means murder..my misstake but it doesn't invalidate the point of relativity of the commandments.. if you kill to save an innocent life, is it bad..if you steal to save a life is it bad? etc...if you would agree that it wouldn't be then you understand my point...if not there should be an explainable reason why it isn't..or so it would seem.

[CCHSNC 14]

Jon:

Just because some think men sleeping with men and women with women being made ok by mankind DOES NOT make it right or acceptable to God. God doesn't love them any less but I can tell you He hates the sin they are commiting just the way He hates all sin. The sin is still sin the problem with homosexuality is they force their life style on all people under the teaching of tolerace. Let me ask this where is the tolerance for my children to bring their bible to school? And don't give me that seperation of church and state garbage. This country was founded by Christianity and the bill passed to seperate church and state was to keep the state out of church not the church out of the state. If anyone doesn't believe me they can do some research and easily find out. That's the main problem with the world today is moral relativism, political correctness and people being afraid to discriminate.

*Sorry for getting of the topic of evelution*

[Cleveland Mobile 14]

My wife is jewish.......of course my luck i married the only jew on the planet that's broke...lol...but thats a whole other story.

We raised the kids catholic.....not that either of us thought that was the better religion....just a whole lot easier and cheaper. The kids are aware of both religions which i think is a good thing. Education is your best weapon against doing wrong.

Although I was raised Catholic....i'm not a real fan anymore with all the problems they have had with priests. My religious beliefs are simple.....pass on a little good and a little caring every day and if you can sleep well you are at peace with the creator.

You know we've all at one time or another have thought about what the perfect woman or man would be like......being in this business and i'm sure we've all met some pretty strange birds during our travels.........we've never once thought about what a bad or evil person is made of. Yet god did and created us and even the ones we catagorize as assholes. Proof that god has one hell of a sense of humor.

[John T 744]

Quote by Robert WielohourThat's the main problem with the world today is moral relativism, political correctness and people being afraid to discriminate. .

All makes sense except for the last part and once again this is the problem with Religion. They want to discriminate and you just confirmed it by that above quote. Religion is not put here for you to pass judgement but by discriminating that is exactly what you/Religion does.

You don't have to like what someone does or is such as Homosexuality but its unfair to discriminate against them. If you really delve deeper into Religion you will see that they also discriminate against females.

Religion has some SERIOUS faults and a big part of there faults is what they consider to be fair and unfair.

I'd be willing to bet you will see most Churches will allow same *** marriages before you or I are dead and buried. Personally I don't like the idea of this happening but whats fair is fair.

By the way a famous Chaplin here in NY was killed during 9-11 when he went in to help his fellow fireman and he was killed. A real hero who was most likely a non practicing Homosexual. I never had the Honor of meeting him but I know a few who have and this person was considered a top notch and beyond as a Person. I bet you I know where he is right now and it sure isn't Hell even if he was a Homosexual. God would never ever deny a man of his caliber.

[Dale 16]

Cleveland Mobile,

I think your post is refreshing and to the point. For some reason when people discuss religion or politics..things get polarized and the point of the discussion get lost in I'm right ..you're wrong..

forget specifics or talking points..

What is THE point of religion ? I think you nailed it... try to pass on a little good and a little caring evey day...

[Paul B. 523]

John T.,

He has also raised his caliber by being a non-practicing homoxesual. Not knowing the man, I have to believe there is an 80% chance that a religious decision was involved. (There are of course other possible reasons.)

Religion is not always to blame. However, you can be sure that man is.

[Paul B. 523]

Mike Williamson,

I agree with all of what you said and you said it very well.

I also believe that the correct translation is murder and not kill.

Truly defending ones self, family or country would not be considered murder.

Dale,

Your statement: "What is THE point of religion ? I think you nailed it... try to pass on a little good and a little caring evey day..." minimizes religion. Religion is much more than that including the development of a relationship with GOD.

If you can justify breaking all ten commandments, can you not see how people with bad intent can justify breaking them for many, many reasons?

I think GOD intended for us to find other good options rather than breaking his laws.

Example: Go to the emergency room for your child’s treatment rather than stealing medicine or work to pay for medicine. The key here is that you look at all other options available.

I believe willful sinning is what we are told to avoid and will also be one of the things we’ll be judged on. The question is what the judgment will bring for willful sinning.

John T.,

I think you are correct (by mans law) when you say: “You are either good or bad by your ACTIONS whether you are religious or not. Sounds logical.”

However, GOD’s law also considers what is in your heart (the reasons) you are doing good or bad things. I personally think that somewhere in the equation is also the refusal to learn to be good even though the opportunity is there.

For example: I believe that the bad acts of a retarded persons will not be judged solely on action, but will consider mind and heart. The big difference between man’s court and GOD’s judgment is that man’s court can not truly and always see what’s in the heart.

Most religions do not make man bad, but man often can make their religion look bad by what they do. (How you represent your religion.)

GOD gave directions from the beginning to guide man in how we were expected to behave.

Initially, the Jews were selected as GOD’s chosen people because all others were pagans (were not following his laws).

I don’t believe religion is totally built on “Blind Faith”, but we were given the ability to make choices. Most people will question their religion at one time or another.

We are given many chances to discover GOD and GOD’s laws.

GOD said there will be many false prophets among people and it will be our job to make sure that we are not following the direction of false prophets (CHOICE). In other words, if Jim Jones comes along and tells you he’s GOD and tells you to give him all your money and to give him all the women and children for sexual pleasures and commit suicide or he will kill you – it is up to you recognize that he’s a false prophet, rather than to follow on “Blind Faith” (as many unfortunately did).

In the early 1500’s Christian Roman Catholic Church was the main religion in Europe.

The church was powerful force in society and dominated people’s thinking. But within 50 years, almost half of the population of western Europe had left the Roman Catholic Church to worship in other churches to protest the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church and its priests, and a demand for reform (CHOICE vs. Blind Faith).

Martin Luther wrote a list of 95 complaints that were circulated in Europe. However, the church refused to consider reform and excommunicated (expelled) Martin Luther. That is when Martin Luther set up his own reformed church.

Similar churches followed throughout Europe (Anglicans, New Lutherans and Calvinists. In order to regain control, the Roman Catholic Church began to reform itself. King Henry the VIII made himself the head of the Anglican Church to grant his OWN divorce (chose one sin over another, but he broke another by seizing the wealth of the richest landowners).

Again, if I can reiterate that my belief is that we are born with innocence rather than a tendency to be good. Where we are at each stage of our lives is largely determined by our environment and the choices we make as we learn that other options are available to us (CHOICES). Natural tendency to be good is relative to what is perceived to be good or what is approved by people around you. It also depends on how you define Relatively good. Is the standard:

Abraham, Ghandi, Mother Theresa, Billy Graham, Roy Rodgers

or is it Castro, Kruschev, Ron Jeremy, J. Paul Ghetty, O.J. Simpson

I’ll mention a few other key words that I think are relative to choices of good or bad and show how people can be considered good, while practicing:

- Prostitution

- Pornography

- Greed

[Paul B. 523]

By the way, Christ had the option to not die if he would deny his faith and stop his teachings. Pontius Pilate made several attempts to allow Christ to live. Christ also had many opportunities to flee and save his life.

The law of man and man crucified Christ.

Lets address LOGIC:

- Where does logic come from or how does it originate?

- Is there good and bad logic?

- Is there punishment for using bad logic?

- Is not logic sometimes an adjustment after punishment or pain is suffered?

- Is logic not based on (in a broad sense) and did it not grow out of the 10 commandments?

- Was America not a home of persecuted people who used religous based logic?

- Was American law not created based on the 10 commandments (plus more)? (We chose to omit a few from man's laws.)

- Did Hitler use logic to for persecute and murder Jews?

- Did Saddam Hussain use logic in obtaining and maintaining control of Iraq for over 30 years?

- If the Romans ruled the world today, would we have gladiators?

- If the Chinese ruled the world what rules or logic would be considered good logic?

- If we had no laws and no rules of GOD, would we have the same good logic?

My point here is that without GOD's laws and guidance (BLIND FAITH) our good logics could be so very much different today.

[Dale 16]

Paul,

How does passing on a little good and a little caring minimize religion? and how does it exclude a relationship with God??

My comment about the commandment being relative was in context of the claim of them being absolute...no exceptions. thats an extraordinary claim and an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof. They would have to apply to everyone..always.

Your example of just solving problems differently...go to an emergency room etc. is very unrealistic. If the laws pertain to everyone, they pertain to everyone and thats the problem..We use a very unrealistic view of reality.. the are 6+ BILLION people on the planet and only 8-9% of that number live with even some of the options that we do in the US. What would you think of stealing something to save the life of your child if you were an African 50 mile from nowhere with no way to travel??..go to the emergency room? ..Paul..no offence intended but the ...go to work and buy your medicine is ...welll...I don't know. I really think that we have no real sense of how others live.

Again there seems to be black or white... this or that thinking going on.

Of course there is good and bad logic, but theres all types of logic. its not just one big chunk.. but I would bet that the "Good" kind is the result of evaluating things honestly and as accurately as possible based in past experience and observation and the "Bad" kind is based more in wishful thinking. An example might be a chronic gambler who devised a system based in his own "logic".

Why do you say that logic comes from the ten commandments?? whats the connection?

The punishment for useing bad logic is usually found in the result of using bad logic. lol.

In EARLY America it was against the law to a member of some religions.

Hitler used a very effective and cruel form of military logic..but this is no judgement of logic in general..same with Saddam, Romans, Chinese, and us yes US in the treatment of the Indians and others.

Theres no way of telling what MIGHT be if something was or wasn't done..one can only speculate. ..just a note..I'm not a believer in all things logical I just think that its a valuble tool in life.

[Lou Beach 14]

We argue back and forth about the nature of God. This is the human experience.

One thing we should never forget though is that we all came from the same exact Source.

There is not a christian god, nor a protestant god, nor a jewish god, nor a muslim god that created just christians, or just jews, ect.

We all were created by the same exact source. No exceptions possible.

Thats something to meditate on.

[Paul B. 523]

The commandments are absolute!

They do apply to everyone and they do apply always.

It's the punishment for breaking them that we are unsure of.

I do have a good sense of how others live, as I grew up under communist oppression and without the opportunity or the freedom to worship openly.

I've also been to many countries... however, you totally missed my point. My point being that people are always too quick to excuse their actions before trying to find other options.

I'm not keen on hypothetical situations because they are always presented as absolute black and white which is not always or hardly ever is the case in real life but here is my hypothetical question:

If you could save your child's life by murdering an innocent person, would you do it?

I agree, "Logic is a valuable tool", but it is limited by the persons knowledge base. A few bad ones always spoil it for the rest!

How many of you know that Mary and Jesus are in the Qur'an?

How many of you know that the Qur'an encourages people to question and discover?

The Qur'an is a Message from Allah to humanity. It was transmitted to us in a chain starting from the Almighty Himself to the angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammed. This message was given to the Prophet in pieces over a period spanning approximately 23 years (610 CE to 622 CE). The Prophet was 40 years old when the Qur'an began to be revealed to him, and he was 63 when the revelation was completed. The language of the original message was Arabic, but it has been translated into many other languages.

The Qur'an is one leg of two which form the basis of Islam. The second leg is the Sunnah of the Prophet. What makes the Qur'an different from the Sunnah is primarily its form. Unlike the Sunnah, the Qur'an is quite literally the Word of Allah, whereas the Sunnah was inspired by Allah but the wording and actions are the Prophet's. The Qur'an has not been expressed using any human's words. Its wording is letter for letter fixed by no one but Allah.

Prophet Muhammad was the final Messenger of Allah to humanity, and therefore the Qur'an is the last Message which Allah has sent to us. Its predecessors such as the Torah, Psalms, and Gospels have all been superceded. It is an obligation - and blessing - for all who hear of the Qur'an and Islam to investigate it and evaluate it for themselves. Allah has guaranteed that He will protect the Qur'an from human tampering, and today's readers can find exact copies of it all over the world. The Qur'an of today is the same as the Qur'an revealed to Muhammad.

(Muhammed was a descendent of Abraham.)

Here is the link where you can find the Qur'an translated to English and judge for yourself if it encourages murder.

www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

[RyanH 14]

Been away for awhile having some much-deserved fun. I can put an end to this discussion once and for all. Go to West Yellowstone, Montana and rent a snowmobile for a few hours. Take a ride up to a point the locals call "Horse Butte" around 7 am local time. Look west, past snow-covered Hebgen Lake. Stand there and watch as the rising sun burns off the residual clouds and low-lying fog. Watch as Lionhead and Coffin mountain slowly emerge from the whitewash. Stay a little longer as the blinding white snow from the peaks relfects the early morning sunlight, sharply contrasting the clearest blue sky upon which your eyes have ever fallen.

I did this very thing this past weekend. At that moment, I realized I needed neither churches nor priests to tell me about God. I'm a scientist and engineer, and I realize the infinite possibilties available in a universe as massive as ours. I realize that the mountains would appear exactly the same whether I was there or not.

But, I also realize that the feeling I get when I see something that majestic is not biologically viable. That feeling does nothing to propagate the species. It is a feeling of awe. I have never seen anything so beautiful in my life (and I have been to many places). I saw the beauty of nature and the complexity of creation.

And I thanked God for the gift He gave.

Ryan H.

[Paul B. 523]

And the creation is still in progress...

[Dale 16]

Hi Paul,

I guess these ideas could go on for ever....I don't really understand why.

Alot of time people present arguments by making a statement in a way that implies fact and then extrapolate on it...whether the statment is fact or not.....people don't ALWAYS excuse their actions to find easy ways out.

Hypothetical questions are a valuable tool though...here's one..

would you steal to save your childs life?..heres another...would you send your child to hell for breaking one of your rules?

the Q'uran..is a book ..it can't kill anyone..but blind adherence to a particular interpretation of it can cause people to...and thats why reason is so important in any religion.

[John T 744]

I can understand completely why these ideas/Debates can go on for ever because we all have our own thoughts and some are so dear to us that in the end we will fight for what is right. Its the nature of the Beast.

Whats great though is if we can discuss these CONTROVERSIAL idea's with level heads. Some of the greatest people were Religious and also used a ton of logic in there thought process.

Here's a term which is probably agreeable to all sides COMMON SENSE!!!!!!!!

Religious, Logical etc. the best answer by far is COMMON SENSE. Do the right thing. IF its Religion then do it RIGHT. If its Logic then do that RIGHT.

You could be the smartest guy on the planet but if you have no COMMON SENSE...........we all know people like this. Example of this could be OSAMA BEEN LADEN. He probably is extremely bright but he will kill many innocents to make his point clear. He's lacking some serious COMMON SENSE and he will pay for this.

[Dale 16]

John,

You sum it up really well..I'll take your advise and apply some common sense to myself and take the circles in for a landing.lol For some reason I've really enjoyed these discussions and the views that were expressed showed the strength of peoples convictions and I think John capped it ..whatever your beliefs are try to be the best example of them you can be!

Dale

[Jon 533]

I feel like saying more but it would take from the subject at hand.

I will say this, what anyone does inside their home is their business, step out then behave as we the people expect.

That goes for homosexuals too, no guy/guy girl/girl hand holding and kissing.

No telling me I MUST ACCEPT you for what you are. No demanding things that are not legally allowed and STOP forcing us to change the laws to suit YOU.

Same for illegals who come here. God did not say break the laws and force us to support you and offer you classes and things in Spanish.

This is America and not what many say is the melting pot.

Tell me God says we must accept all now.

I don't hate anyone, I don't have to like them either. I also could care less what color you are if you're a good person.

Now I get a tad carried away and personal at times on some subjects so best I stop now.

[Mike Williamson 198]

Dale:

The reason I believe it to be faulty is that what you see isn't usually what you get. Many (or most, in my opinion) people put on a facade when dealing with others in a public setting. The clerk at the store that you find most helpful may very well go home and abuse his kids. The friend you know from work who you get along very well with may possibly. be a sexual predator who has either never been caught or never acted on his impulses. You can't tell a whole lot about a person or their true feelings, desires, motivations, or heart by what you see on the surface. That is why I said only God knows the heart, and only God is fit to judge man. I'm not suspicious of everyone, I simply recognize that there are many hidden things inside those around me, some good and some bad, and what I see on the surface isn't a good indicator of what those things are.

JohnT:

There is nothing at all wrong with discriminating.... Where the problem comes in is when we discriminate based on things that ought not to be reasons for discrimination. If I were to hire a helper, a good basis for discrimination would be if I chose to hire the person who had no criminal record instead of the recently released violent offender. However, if I chose to discriminate based on race, that would be wrong. We SHOULD discriminate. The meaning of that word is very simply to make good, wise decisions, to make a clear distinction. I discriminate when I choose which soap I use, which wand to use, what jobs I'm willing to take, etc. We discriminate every day of our lives. I don't believe this quote intends the meaning of the word used to be the pop-media definition of wrongful discrimination based on things people have no control over such as race, ***, age, etc.

As far as discriminating based on sexual orientation, it depends on what your'e talking about. God is clear in His word that practicing homosexuality is a sin. If a church says "no homosexuals can be leaders, or ministers, in the church" that is based on God's law. Granted, many mistreat these folks, and fail to show them God's love, and for that they should be ashamed. However, a lot of folks think that showing God's love to others is not only accepting them as they are, but also condoning them as they are. That's just plain wrong.

Whether your firefighter is in heaven or hell is up to God, not be, and I would not be so presumptuous as to apply my reasoning, or my desires, to God (as you have done, by presuming that God surely wouldn't deny a man of such caliber). You see, the criteria God has laid down isn't how much good a man has done, or how selfless he can be in any given moment...it is how that man has reacted to God's commandments and His offer of grace.

PaulB:

I believe Jesus had the option not to die, regardless of whether he gave up His faith. No man took His life. He gave it, willingly. Yes, he struggled with that, but he walked away from that struggle having chosen to lay down His will to that of God.

Dale:

The concept minimizes religion in that it bypasses it. The concept of "just do good things and you'll be OK" bypasses the biblical message that we CAN'T "good works" our way back into God's kingdom. The entire OT and the law of Moses was to show us that it doesn't matter how hard we try to toe the line, we simply can't. There's not enough that we can do to take care of the sin nature we have inherited. It was to pave the way in the hearts of men for the messiah. It was, as scripture says, a schoolmaster. Showing us our desperate need for God.

Lou:

You are right, we are all God's creation. God made all those men and women who have embraces Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc etc. However, that doesn't mean that any one of those religions is true, or right, or correct. To use that logic, then God is the God of satanism. God is the God of all evil religions, and of their evil practices.

JohnT:

You keep using "Logic" and "Religion" as if they are mutually exclusive terms. They aren't. Many of us use logic to arrive at our religious beliefs. For example, I can look at the extreme complexity of the universe, and to me it is very logical to beleive something so complex MUST have an intelligent designer. To me, that is logical. To you, it may seem ludicrous. We're both exercising logic. One of us is wrong, but we're both using logic.

Jon:

I agree with just about everything you said, with one exception. While I agree that what people do in the privacy of their own homes is their business as far as mankind goes, God has also made it His business. However, it isn't MY business to worry or concern myself with what they're doing. It is between them and God.

[John T 744]

Mike Williamson,

Of course we can disect the Word Discriminate and how we use it in every decision we make but in the way that most people today relate that word to it should not be done. Discrimination is unfair and I'm not talking about picking cookies over cake.

Also the way you explain the above its like you give all the credit to GOD but in all fairness when anything that goes wrong then you should give GOD all the blame because God created you...for the better or worse. Its unfair that religion always takes credit for the good things in life but they will NEVER step up and take the blame. Just look at all the Child Molester Priest and the cover up that followed for YEARS!!

Also when one wins something they always thank God which is nice but when ever there is a winner..you guessed it there has to be a loser. Can the Losers then blame God??? If no why not?? Whats fair has got to be fair.

In all Honesty what ever point you bring up I can counter point it with Facts and this is what drives Religion crazy, also most likely is why alot of people today at least in our Country don't hold Religion in High Esteem like they used to. These are the Facts.