Mountain View 14 Report post Posted February 8, 2008 A couple of questions for you folks. 1) Do you strip and clean Ipe any different than soft woods? 2) Your prefered product and application techniques for Ipe. Has anyone used Bakers Gray Away or Ready seal on Ipe? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 I have access to both low (250) VOC ATO and regular (550) VOC ATO. Is the current 550 VOC the same formula that everyone liked before the changes a few years ago or was that also modified? I could not tell you Scott whether it is the same or not since we are in the red zone here and once the stocks were depleted we no longer have any reference. (wishing I still had a can) Hopefully, someone can help answer that one. Rod!~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 RPetry 564 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 Scott, I have a few gal. cans of the old, pre-VOC restricted ATO in inventory. Product code 80351 13457 - Amberwood 80351 13459 - Mahogany Flame Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Scott Paul 164 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 Scott,I have a few gal. cans of the old, pre-VOC restricted ATO in inventory. Product code 80351 13457 - Amberwood 80351 13459 - Mahogany Flame I can get both the 13457 Amberwood and the 13459 Mahogany Flame. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 plainpainter 217 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 Rod - what I was trying to say in a nutshell, is that in my location MASS - we still have access to the 550 voc limit ATO. And the product made in '06 can't hold a candle to some product that I have that was manufactured in '03. That is why I am saying I think it's not really a VOC issue - I think your observation of ATO quality declining post '05 is coincidental. The solvent in ATO and many other stains is Mineral Spirits - and me thinks the less mineral spirits only affects brushability and not so much longevity. Perhaps the less the spirits would translate to less penetration on softer wood species - but for harder wood species - I don't think that's really an issue. The Russell rant was basically pointing out that a 'cured' ESI resin is very flexible - and in my opinion not good if left to form a film - which is firmly suggested by Russell not to do. I believe the reduction in quality of ATO has more to do with Cabots abandoning higher cost/quality full bodied tung and linseed oil resins, that are already polymerised in the can. That stuff was rock hard several days after application - like varnish. I think they simply switched to lower cost resins that aren't fully bodied/polymerised - which is more flexible but not a good trait for a hard surface stable wood such as ipe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 Dan, When the VOC's were reduced, it's not like all they did was remove some solvents. Rod is not saying the solvents were the only factor. Formulas changed across the board....this did include resins....etc. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 PressurePros 249 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 When you take a formula like Cabot's ATO and you remove spirits (a relatively cheap ingredient.. at least it used to be) you have to replace that volume with something. That something is going to be more expensive. Companies like Cabot's answer to stock holders so while they may do their best to reformulate quality goods, they probably had no choice but to accept the use of cheaper alkyd resins or substitute cheaper oils or both. Cabot's, in every test I performed lasted 3-4 months at the most when set horizontally. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 Cabot's is not the only one who changed or performs less well. It happened to Sikkens SRD and DEK, TWP, ESI's Wood Tux, and so forth. We have spoken to a number of reps from various manufacturers and it was an across the board thing. It effected coatings in general. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 Low-VOC Paints Are More Than Just ‘Green’ Going, going, gone? Environmental restrictions are making oil-based paints and stains scarce in some areas | Building Products | Find Articles at BNET.com A good link helps... Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 Daniel, I'll leave you to what you believe. My question was to Roger in specific was to find out how they may be in line to be affected by any VOC regulation heading down their pike and he answered that question. You are fortunate to still have access to the other version, but soon you may find yourself in our boat, this is what I am talking about. I am concerned for our customers who depend on our expertise to provide them with a product that will protect their investment when there isn't one available capable of meeting a measly 1 year expectation in full sun exposure. Regardless of what it has to do with...mineral spirits, resins or whatever, the problem is durability. Hard resins don't necessarily have durability. I watched Sikkens Dek fade off from a shady side of a vertical surface over six months in our shaded back yard. That was a polymer resin, quite hard by comparison to alkyd oil based resins. I watched WTW on our pt deck this last year go bye-bye in 8 months and yes we kept it clean, umbrellas, furniture and plants spaced well around it and it didn't hold up. Now, if it didn't hold up well on our deck, imagine what a full sun deck of our customers looks like now? We applied it to a number of Ipe' decks and it is failing within 8 months on average. Not a good testament to performance. Yeah, I hear the questions; did you over apply it, did you prep the deck right, etc etc... yeah I did sand da floor, yeah I did wax on wax off! yeah I did paint da fence!! but da Ipe said "thbthbthbthtbhtbhtbhtbht!!!! Nothing lasts on Ipe, no matter how you apply it, no matter what resin, what oil or etc. Rod!~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Celeste 341 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 The best solution we have found at this point is to be knowledgeable enough about what affects the VOC changes have occurred and simply let our customers know what to expect. This is a WTW/WR blend on Ipe at 10 months. Definitely light but not graying or dingy and at this stage, a light clean/recoat was very simple. Our customer expects to see us between 8 - 10 months. Ipe owners who want the aesthetic beauty of that freshly oiled look should KNOW that more frequent maintenance is what has to happen at this time. Folks that say Ipe is "maintenance free" should get smacked like the Trex folks did when they used that phrase. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 RPetry 564 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 I can get both the 13457 Amberwood and the 13459 Mahogany Flame. Scott, You may want to check with Cabots. As far as I know, the 1345X numbers are the color designation. The 80351 product number may differentiate between the "old" ATO and the newer "VOC regulated" formula. Not sure as I do not have any "new" ATO in stock. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 PressurePros 249 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 Nothing lasts on Ipe, no matter how you apply it, no matter what resin, what oil or etc. Rod!~ Rod!~, your statement is too vague. Nothing "lasts" on any exterior surface if you set over expectation in terms of durability. I tell people WoodZotic will outlast Cabot's ATO by 300%. That means it lasts 9 months. That is statistically significant, wouldn't you say? There is no product that is going to look fresh on ipe for more than a year, I don't care what it is. By the same token I have had ipe decks done in early 2006 that showed no graying this past fall. Cosmetically, they needed to be redone but they were still protected. You have to evaluate products for hardwoods within a realistic time domain. If that frame is less than one year, it is what it is. A bad product might make it 3 months of that year. A decent product 6 or 7 months. The top line, a full year. Its all relative. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 Ken, Nothing does last. All products have a life cycle. They are designed to fail so the products can repeat the life cycle. This is very basic. Being realistic is wonderful, and if you are able as a pro to accurately set expectations that makes you look good I'll agree with that, but it doesn't mean the consumer will feel good about the longevity or lack thereof. It is prudent to educate the consumer on the changes in VOC laws where applicable, and to explain why products are less durable. Many are aware of this decrease in durability (from our experience). The bottom line here, is that the changes to formulas have had an effect on the industry in general, and this will in time spread to other states. Everyone is thinking...and going....GREEN. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Scott Paul 164 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 Scott,You may want to check with Cabots. As far as I know, the 1345X numbers are the color designation. The 80351 product number may differentiate between the "old" ATO and the newer "VOC regulated" formula. Not sure as I do not have any "new" ATO in stock. The 250 low VOC have codes of 1945X. I'll check though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Scott Paul 164 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 I hate promoting a water based product, but I have had numerous customers tell me the Defy Stain for Hardwoods out performed any previous stains they used. Granted these are HO's and I haven't any personal experience, but it might want to be considered. I'll get some samples for anyone who wants to do a test. Just send me an email and address. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 Rod!~, your statement is too vague. Nothing "lasts" on any exterior surface if you set over expectation in terms of durability. I tell people WoodZotic will outlast Cabot's ATO by 300%. That means it lasts 9 months. That is statistically significant, wouldn't you say? There is no product that is going to look fresh on ipe for more than a year, I don't care what it is. By the same token I have had ipe decks done in early 2006 that showed no graying this past fall. Cosmetically, they needed to be redone but they were still protected. You have to evaluate products for hardwoods within a realistic time domain. If that frame is less than one year, it is what it is. A bad product might make it 3 months of that year. A decent product 6 or 7 months. The top line, a full year. Its all relative. Ken, Now you are assuming I do not know how to set the expectations. Problem is, in our area, maintenance every 8 months is not realistic as you well know. Top of the line??? You talk as if I'm slinging thompsons here. Please read my post again and assess the pertinent point "Full Sun Exposure". There is not a product on the market today that will last beyond 9 months in that kind of environment. You are up farther north from us with a shorter season and a minimal temperature reduction in the mid summer months. I have evaluated them and this is my conclusion which is not vague at all...nothing last a year on Ipe in full sun. This is based upon our observations, and evaluations of several products that claim to be suitable for use on hardwoods. CATO, mesmers, wtw, sikkens, RS, penofin all suffer UV degredation after 6 months to the point of failure. Many exhibit mildew proliferation and not just on the floors but clear to the top of the railcap. Granted there are an abundance of coniferous trees in the vicinity but to have mildew growth beyond the splash zone is indicative of a products fungicide failing. Now, taking into consideration your statement "There is no product that is going to look fresh on ipe for more than a year, I don't care what it is." Perhaps we are using a different pronoun. You say "fresh", I say "last". What it equates to is neither of us are happy with the way a finish looks after a years worth of time, let alone 6-9 months. I can appreciate your sales approach in telling your customers a statistical expectation but I believe in giving definitive answers to help set real time expectations. Different sales style. I don't want to get into debating one style over another, I just want a manufacturer who may read this thread to sit up and take notice because otherwise, they do not really know much beyond their accelerator testing and letting a product sit on a piece of wood out in the middle of a field without it being exposed to "life" as it pertains to real world performance on a deck. They do not take into consideration the air flow clearance below the structure which can lead to moisture accumulations which can cause the wood to swell. "No big deal" someone says??? What happens to the wood once a dry spell of a few weeks transpires? That moisture evaporates and the wood shrinks rapidly. This fundamental dynamic creates a massive failure of most products on the market today. "So?" someone may say, "what about those decks that are second level where moisture is not a concern?" Ok, how about the thermal induction envelope that can cook the sealer right off the wood? You know, 90* day in the grass but up on that deck it is easily 105*-115* for 6 of the 10 hours during a typical sunny day. Lack of moisture causes wood to shrink adding to the dynamic change that a deck is subject to. This in turn shortens a products service life and leads to failures which all that is necessary is a good rain to add to the cycle. I could go on but I think my point is made. Ipe is a hardwood, it is dark and attracts heat, it is the densest wood being used on outdoor structures and also is highly impermeable to much more than fine oils. Where does that leave us? Nothing will last a year on Ipe in full sun. Not everyone can afford to keep the look of a freshly cleaned and sealed deck so it is my job as the professional to keep my eye out for a product that will help the customer to make the most of the money they spend to care for their wood. Relative to sun, shade or climate, the question is still the same, how long will it last? 6-9 months? thats all? I understand buyers remorse and when these people have been told that the product is environmentally sound, safe for their children to play on and will last 25 years with little maintenance, I feel their pain when I have to drop the bomb on them about how often it will need to be maintained if they want it to look decent all year long in contrast to just letting it go grey and save the money. It is disappointing and that is what compels me to look for something better and I know my customers appreciate the effort. I hope a Manufacturer reads this and takes it to the next level. It is a shame to spend all that extra money to only have to spend even more, more often than they would if they had a pt deck installed instead. Rod!~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 PressurePros 249 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 Rod, you missed the point I was attempting to make. When you say something doesn't last, the word "last" has to be defined by a realistic expectation. (your definition of 'last' versus my definition of 'fresh' is not relevant) I mean, the expectations are established by the market as whole. I don't dispute all the other points you brought up. If companies with tens of millions of dollars in R&D money (not to mention a 100+ year history of exterior coatings manufacture) cannot develop a product to last longer than a year, then one year is the marker. Perhaps the physical properties of ipe cannot be overcome and that's the best that can be achieved. When you grade products you grade them within real world guidelines. Thus, products that last a year are the premium performers.. yes? Do you see what I am saying? A car finish doesn't "last" either. Not indefinitely and/or without maintenance. Like I said in my post, the word "last" is a relative term. Soft wood finishes are expected to last 1-2 years. The public knows this. They may be jazzed or temporarily swayed by marketing BS that something will last longer but they soon realize indirectly that in over 100 years of commercial coatings manufacture there has been little in the way of scientific breakthrough. Its a battle against Mother Nature, and thus far, she is winning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 Woo,woo,wooo,wooo!! Oh, wise guy eh? Wanna mince some woids wit me do ya??? Last (2) 1. to remain in existence or operation; continue; go on; endure 2. to remain in good condition; wear well... It's pretty definitive in these terms. A realistic expectation is based upon the manufacturers claims which in a real world sense are not accurate. Cabot specifically told me during a dispute that the product should "last" between 12-18 months on Ipe without fading, cracking, peeling. This is my basis of contention and the supporting facts of my statement. I hope that helps to put us on the same page. I am not talking about the market but product. This is where we seem to have lost our understanding. Cabots technical data sheets specifically say to evaluate maintenance every 1-2years. On the realistic side, Messmers recommends cleaning and recoating 2X a year. Sikkens by comparison recommends every 18 months. They have not been able to "last" according to their specifications. These are my expectations set by the manufacturer, and if that is not realistic than I don't know what is. I am the end user that makes the suggestions to my customer based upon my working knowledge. Now where do we differ? Your suggestion that a product exists on the market that will hold up under the conditions I have specified. It is not a reality in our region. I understand your point in hypothesis of a benchmark but I am contesting that benchmark, that's all. Rod!~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 plainpainter 217 Report post Posted February 13, 2008 Rod - just curious, could you write a list of stains you have used in the past with, and adjacent to the list write down what the best performance was - and now the present performance. Like was there any stain that lasted 2 yrs on ipe in the past? I am curious. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Scott Paul 164 Report post Posted February 14, 2008 I hate promoting a water based product, but I have had numerous customers tell me the Defy Stain for Hardwoods out performed any previous stains they used. Granted these are HO's and I haven't any personal experience, but it might want to be considered. I'll get some samples for anyone who wants to do a test. Just send me an email and address. I have 10 samples of each color coming in. Free to anyone who wants to do a test. Send me a message if interested. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted February 14, 2008 Dan, for the most part, I answered that in my posts. I have not seen any product last beyond 9 months in full sun exposure before the beginning signs of failure. It was Sikkens dek that held up the longest. Rod!~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Scott Paul 164 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 Defy samples are in. Anyone else want some? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 PressurePros 249 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 Defy samples are in. Anyone else want some? and me, boss. Bill me for the shipping. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 Defy samples are in. Anyone else want some? Yes please :) Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 plainpainter 217 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 I would like some too! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A couple of questions for you folks.
1) Do you strip and clean Ipe any different than soft woods?
2) Your prefered product and application techniques for Ipe. Has anyone used Bakers Gray Away or Ready seal on Ipe?
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites