2008 Sealer Poll

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Which sealer(s) are you using this year?

[PressurePros 249]

Kevin, your whole arguement goes out the window when you get 20 rainy days in a season that will throw off your schedule. Can Olympic be used on a moist deck? You can't really come up with empiracal data based upon one job and then plug those numbers into perfect world scenario. Wait until you have to get into completing 7-10+ decks per week.

I am not going to use Wood Tux on my decks anymore. To reconsider I will have to see one year of straight up product consistency and distribution. I'm going to take the road less traveled this year with a new product.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Ken,

We are too. I think a number of people are anxious for the new kid on the block to hit the streets. Several will be offering it.... ;)

Beth

[James 625]

Ken, you not going to play Russel Roulette like the last 5 years ?

[plainpainter 217]

Jim, in all fairness to Russell - he did raise the bar in terms of deck staining products. I know you guys have gone over to the parafinnic side - but for the most part deck stains started out decades ago by formulations of linseed oils and fungicides - which are curing type stains. That being said - without woodtux - what would guys be using now? ATO? Sikkens? What product out there has really done so much to prop up how well respected deck refinishers are considered? Beth and Rod for instance made a career on the woodtux products. I understand there has been the other side in terms of consistency of product - reformulations that have lead to minor disasters - and unreliable shipping.

Russell assured me that after spring '07 that the formula has been 'locked' - he is no longer going to fool around with it - he is sticking to his guns, that if guys want an easier product - then there is the woodrich stain&seal product. And the woodtux will remain the slightly harder to use higher solids product.

It's not easy to formulate a quality product, in all fairness products like readyseal are very easy and cheap to formulate. Parafinnic stains are very 'low' technology stains - I still see oil leaching after rainstorms on my deck 5 months after the last application. They definitely are not the end-all be-all to high quality deck restorations. Heck - I have this section of roof that pours onto my deck - which doesn't have a rain gutter - and you can see a clear line of demarcation in the deck, where the oils have been washed out!

Its not pretty and isn't very professional looking in my opinion.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

So you are saying ... if you are following this thread... that after you wash, then seal the wet wood, if blotchy - then sand (WHEN DRY)- which means resealing? Dude, that's nuts. To me (and what the heck do I know) its better to:

Wash

Let dry

Sand/prep as needed

Seal

Get paid and boogie.

Beth :seeya:

Since some ya obviousely have some type of horse in a race here and I perhaps not following the finer detals of this thread I should ask Beth is this post directed to me or Dan or who?.. sorry am lost...

My only point with the sanding thing is that different prep/grit can indeed affect a look that is often confused or termed as blotchyness and I posed to you or anyone else reading a possable solution.

I support the cronology you present.. :)

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Kevin, your whole arguement goes out the window when you get 20 rainy days in a season that will throw off your schedule. Can Olympic be used on a moist deck? You can't really come up with empiracal data based upon one job and then plug those numbers into perfect world scenario. Wait until you have to get into completing 7-10+ decks per week.

I am not going to use Wood Tux on my decks anymore. To reconsider I will have to see one year of straight up product consistency and distribution. I'm going to take the road less traveled this year with a new product.

No argue...as we don't generally get 20 rainy day during what would be considered a work season. But if not mistaken I was under the impression that many guys back yer way do the week on week off routine of cleaning a bunch and then staining...For such folk doing such a schedule the numbers info for sure can apply. I don't really understand your use of 'empirical'..please explain if ya like..I just know that if it a big job and all I am doing that day is staining that I know I can do this or that amount of area per hour or day and the numbers don't lie for me. I've used sme products enough on various wood to know what they work out to. I feel it is not rocket science and I hope for goodness sake you would also have a good educated guestimate or ball park figure on what yer giving up if using one product over another. Could be quality your giving up or could be hard earned greenbacks. My post only touched really on the greenbacks..I mean anyone can feel welcome to address the end qualitiy issues of a product but they are not gonna be able to avoid the fact that everysecond they spraying a product it costs somebody figurable money.

Far as being used on moist..umm er No comment..lol..

The 7-10 per week can fit various types of scheduling of cleaning then staining programs. Do I not hear Beth talking about letting things dry anyways with wet technology?. Gonna wait a couple day or few than might as well wait till next week is my feeling.. Doesn't mean yer not completing or competing at a 7-10 per wek worth of jobs completed, just stretching things out is all and same dollars made....umm err but nope ya may make more if useing a more economical product.. :)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Kevin,

Yes, sorry, I was responding to what you wrote. I may have misread what you posted, but it looked like you were suggesting sanding a finish if it turned out blotchy after being applied wet....so I gave a chronology I believe is accurate.

Dan,

Yeah I guess you could say we made a career on Tux, but it would be more accurate to say we made a career on high end wood care, with Tux as one of our mainstay products along side others (we always several).

We have tried very hard to be fair in our assessments of various things, but also critical as well because the customer will remember the applicator, that's who they paid. The product, well, you know as well as I do that we are supposed to be informed and know the good, the bad and the ugly. Regardless of the fact that we have zero control over manufacturing or delivery, the responsibility is on our shoulders to get the work done and to offer what we believe to be the best wood care solutions available today. The VOC law changes have done a disservice to oil based products, but it's what we have to deal with.

Beth

[Russell Cissell 65]

VOC laws don't necessarily impact all Oil Based products. Formulas laden with mineral spirits were most affected. At one time mineral spirits were a relatively low cost carrier however they are 100% VOC. Products that were lower in pigment and resin solids generally had a higher amount of mineral spirits.

While there is a small amount of spirits in Wood-Tux (primarily derived from the transoxide pigment dispersion) it has always been very high in Resin and Pigment solids making it very low in VOC.

In order to make Woodrich Brand Stain & Seal easier to use we formulated it with a lower percentage of resin solids. To keep it low in VOC, rather than use mineral spirits we used the same paraffinic oil that is used in Woodrich Brand Timber Oil.

My biggest fear for the future of oil based finishes is cost. If trends continue in their current direction, I don't see how it will be cost feasible to use them at all a decade from now. The two most expensive raw materials used in oil based formulations are pigments and (obviously) oil. Generally speaking the pigment market is relatively stable. The "petroleum" market is insane.

I get really excited each time I hear of some new "breakthrough" in water based formulation. So far though I'm yet to see a complete package that thrills me. It the same old story. If you make something that looks nice and lasts a reasonable amount of time, it is very difficult to maintain. Anything that is reasonably easy to maintain doesn't look that great or last as long.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Well, I guess we will have to disagree. And, I can back up my statements. I have spoken to chemists in the coatings industry, as well as to manufacturer reps for many companies who used to all produce very decent oil based products, all of which have been altered to comply with the VOC laws changing, and in anticipation of this spreading to other states. In fact, you can still buy the "good" TWP, if you happen to live in a state that was not effected. Those in "greener" states - well, we can't.

There are other things that emit VOC's - it's not just the mineral spirits. Gasoline, nail polish remover, alcohol, and paint are also culprits. There are other things effected.

We have seen firsthand, that the coating made before 2005 held up better than the same named and brand of product after that date.

The changes have had a HUGE impact on the products and performance, and on the coatings industry. There are companies looking for newer technology to replace top selling longer lasting items. And as a contractor, I know I am not going to give the same reassurance for longevity of product I once did. Why? Because it's best to be honest about the life expectation of a product.

Beth :cup: :groovy3:

[James 625]

Dan , why don't u make your own "Tambasco Sauce Sealer for decks" ? Maybe you can pair up with Russel and start a HOT new product!!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

If you don't think your state is affected of going to be in the future, you might want to read this.

http://www.icipaintsstores.com/web/docs/VOCNewsletter_2_en.pdf

Beth

[plainpainter 217]

I don't know the epa law too well - supposedly I live in the 'reduced' emissions corridor of the northeast I believe with a limit of 350ml/liter of VOC's? Yet California paints which is a company in my home town blows by that with a decking stain that is 600ml/L VOC's - I posted pics of it on this website - and they are compliant! I think you can choose to take your products to the EPA on an individual basis and prove they don't affect the quality of air - and the EPA hands out 'exemptions'. I think lesser informed - lesser sophisticated companies don't do this.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Acetone, Zylene, specific Alcohols, Ketones and other carriers for various feedstocks fall under voc restrictions. These are some of the common coating/stain/sealer ingredients that also fall under HAP (Hazardous Air Pollutants) regulated voc's. For a complete list visit this link:

EPA: Group/Component List :

It is not just Mineral spirits (aka Stoddard Solvent) thats the primary substance. The other components add to the voc content and influence the amount of solvent based pigments and resins that can be used in the product which is why Wood Tux and many others are not lasting anywhere as long as they used to. Many of the quality ingredients had to be reduced in order to fall under the threshold. I don't blame you or anyone else for that matter as the fines and imprisonment repercussions would surely close down a business otherwise.

Let's just not try to lead people into thinking it was one specific substance when there are at the time of this post 231 specific substances being regulated, some of which used to provide what we knew and loved.

I can't remember the conversations in totality but a chemist and other sources in manufacturing the products we use have given me a deeper view into the regulations. I know in the past, Beth and I have been ones to validate it was just the mineral spirits based upon what Mr. Cissell has told us, but truth be known, the impact is far reaching in the implications. No need to be defensive as all are effected and having to deal with inferior products in comparison to the pre-voc mandate which put us all in a position of having to make some tough decisions for our companies and our customers who depend on us to recommend something that will last and we don't really have any definitive choices to offer.

Rod!~

[plainpainter 217]

Diamond Jim - I have thought alot about decking stains - and I am afraid Russell is correct. You can have maintenance of product - or you can have durability, but you can't have both. RS being a perfect example, it's the easist to maintain in one sense - but has absolutely no durability - I suspect I will be flooding my ptp deck with RS/timberoil twice a year. But it does look pretty!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

There will always be a difference in longevity between horizontal and vertical surfaces. But it is sad that horizontal surfaces aren't performing anywhere near where they were.

Beth

[plainpainter 217]

I don't understand why the epa doesn't let coatings manufacturers use turpentine? It's not affected by oil industry - and turpentine is being exhausted into the atmosphere wether we use it in a store bought product or not - so it's use has a net zero impact on the quality of air.

[Russell Cissell 65]

I have a better question. Why is it that Acetone doesn't have to be included in the calculation of a products overall VOC? Acetone is 100% VOC. Obviously it has an exemption, but why this one product? Why is Acetone exempt?

[Scott Paul 164]

I have a better question. Why is it that Acetone doesn't have to be included in the calculation of a products overall VOC? Acetone is 100% VOC. Obviously it has an exemption, but why this one product? Why is Acetone exempt?

Politics

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Guys...click the epa link...acetone is on the bad boy list. EPA: Group/Component List :

Beth

[Scott Paul 164]

It is on the exempt list though. Example: The solvent based paver sealer I sell can only be sold to California if it has acetone in it. Problem is that I have to ship it Haz Mat due to the flamability of it.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

As an ingredient, any organic compound counts toward the product's reactivity based limit. So if it shoots the VOC's way up, it doesn't matter which list it is on. The product still has a threshold as I read the EPA guidelines....

Beth

[Russell Cissell 65]

Beth

There are many levels of understanding. What you are saying is 100% correct. Acetone is both on the list and 100% VOC. You do have to add it up when you use it as an ingredient. Scott is also right Acetone comes with a 1:1 exemption. That means that if I were to use it, I would first add it into my total VOC, but then I get to subtract it back out because it has an exemption.

It's not that it has become any safer, but for political reasons it is overlooked on purpose.

Another example is I could make a stain with 50% mineral spirits and still legally sell it to you right there in MD. I could not claim it as LOW VOC but I could claim it to be VOC compliant. All I would have to do is pay a "tax" on the percentage that I am over the limit. In that way I can purchase an "exemption" for the additional VOC.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Beth

There are many levels of understanding. What you are saying is 100% correct. Acetone is both on the list and 100% VOC. You do have to add it up when you use it as an ingredient. Scott is also right Acetone comes with a 1:1 exemption. That means that if I were to use it, I would first add it into my total VOC, but then I get to subtract it back out because it has an exemption.

It's not that it has become any safer, but for political reasons it is overlooked on purpose.

Another example is I could make a stain with 50% mineral spirits and still legally sell it to you right there in MD. I could not claim it as LOW VOC but I could claim it to be VOC compliant. All I would have to do is pay a "tax" on the percentage that I am over the limit. In that way I can purchase an "exemption" for the additional VOC.

Well from what I can tell....none of the major popular oils in our area are doing that....Not TWP, Sikkens, Cabot, WT or others. All of them just lowered VOC's...

How high is the tax? Just curious...it must be high if no one is doing it.

Beth

[Scott Paul 164]

From what I understand the tax would continue to increase every year that it is made. That is why none of the manufacturers will do it.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Yeah, I think they call it a deterrent or something.

I would argue the sum total VOC release could be drastically reduced by allowing manufacturers to formulate based on quality rather than politics. For every year I can keep you from going back to a deck it reduces more VOC than would be required to make a superior product.