Does citralic need to be kept wet to work?

[gt2003 18]

I know the efc-38 needs to be kept "wet" to do its work. Is it the same with the Citralic? If it dries fairly quickly will it still be working or not?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Yes. Needs to be kept wet. If it begins to dry, you can mist it with water if you don't want it to get stronger. If you are not seeing any result yet, you can add more product.

Beth

Edited July 21, 2008 by Beth n Rod
added clarity

[plainpainter 217]

By the time you have added citralic to a deck - you've pounded it with caustics, re-wetted it with caustics to keep the stripping/cleaning active - and then flooded a deck with water to rinse. By that time your deck is heavily saturated - a quick application of citralic will have completed it's job in ten minutes flat - there will be absolutely no drying issues at that point. Your only concern is to rinse off the deck quick enough to keep the citralic from over-neutralizing, that is if you mix it at it's prescribed strengths - which is far too strong for my taste buds.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Daniel,

Depends on the temps on the deck and the wood itself. For example, an ipe deck will dry more quickly than say...cedar will.

Beth

[plainpainter 217]

Beth - I wouldn't know, never worked on an ipe deck - Mohogany has been the closest wood I have worked on. But I am kind of spoiled - I downstream strippers and citralic - I can cover a huge deck in 2 minutes flat with oxalic - and then go to town rinsing real quick.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Once the acid has changed the ph its job is finished on neutralizing. That is immediate. Brightening with acid is another matter far as how long..

[RPetry 564]

Interesting. We use citric acid, usually at 6 oz. / gallon. Apply then leave it on to dry. We do not rinse the acid off the wood with water.

This works very well with Ready Seal and I would presume other paraffinic oil stains. Not sure about linseed or other products.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I believe it says on the Citralic label to rinse....

We have always rinsed.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

You guys do not use paraffinic oil stains. At least with Ready Seal and straight citric, you do not want to rinse.

Edited July 21, 2008 by RPetry

[plainpainter 217]

Rick - what you have to understand is for us citralic users, we are buying a product with buffers and surfactants, basically a 'soap' mixed with our acids. You are using a 'straight' acid product. I don't think it wise to use an acid with a 'soap' mixed in and leave it there on the deck. I personally believe in an acid product with buffers and surfactants mixed into it. As well, when you neutralize the 'offspring' are 'salts' - and I don't want to mess around with what these 'salts' could do to a finish. Perhaps by using a straight citric acid vs. these other oxalic phosphorus brightening products, you don't have the same issues. And not to mention - a deck that has been thoroughly rinsed after the stripper application - what is really left to neutralize? I use to do full building paint removal with diedrich products left on overnight - and we always neutralized the product prior to removing. A citric acid applied to a deck after a thorough rinsing is perhaps not really neutralizing anything in all reality - and you are introducing Vitamin C into the wood, right? So maybe that's a really good thing to do. But for these oxalic products with buffers - it's a different story.

Incidently - Vitamin C neutralizes bleach residue in much the same way as Sodium Sulfite if you can believe it!!!!!!

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

This is what has me confused. Bear with me, I got a "D" in college freshman chemistry. Classes at 8:00 AM a mile away did not help.

Two aspects of an acid application. It "neutralizes" or gets the pH down from caustic percarbs or NaOH strippers. In addition, it does have the ability to "brighten" or lighten the surface coloring of the wood, both softwoods and hardwoods.

So why the surfactants and soap? You have already cleaned or stripped the wood. Blew it off with a ton of water and some pressure. Why put "soap", whatever that is back on, and why the surfactants?

All I know is we have been using citric acid without rinsing and Ready Seal for close to 8 yrs. now. The process came from a few "old salt" contractors many years ago and it works. Our stain finishes last as long if not longer than most other contractors, certainly here in NJ's climate.

[Greg R 82]

I can't speak for every finish but I know oxalic left on a protected surface (as in no rain to rinse it off) can haze a film based finish. I've seen it happen. Penetrating oils will for the most part allow the "salts" to rinse off in time whereas the filmers hold them under the finish potentially causing some unsightly issues.

I'm confused about the "soaps" myself. When I think of soaps it leads me to assume where talking about an alkaline base of some sort which I would expect to neutralize off the acidic nature of the acid. A blend of acids I can understand... just not the need for a surfactant in general.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I can't speak for every finish but I know oxalic left on a protected surface (as in no rain to rinse it off) can haze a film based finish. I've seen it happen. Penetrating oils will for the most part allow the "salts" to rinse off in time whereas the filmers hold them under the finish potentially causing some unsightly issues.

I'm confused about the "soaps" myself. When I think of soaps it leads me to assume where talking about an alkaline base of some sort which I would expect to neutralize off the acidic nature of the acid. A blend of acids I can understand... just not the need for a surfactant in general.

Thank you!!! ;)

Beth :cup:

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I have seen a crystaline haze or breakthrough of the finish around knots and sap veins when rinsing was not done thoroughly. Granted it wasn't RS but oil based products that use parrafin wax as the enviro-barrier.

With Citric, I don't see a problem but with Oxalic being left behind, uhuh! The stuff is poison and a liability.

my .02

Rod!~

[plainpainter 217]

Rick - most companies mix in surfactants with the acids for performance reasons, I think. Ask Russell why he does it, he knows better than I do.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

I think "surfactants" in general help "spread out" a liquid solution and also may help in removing that solution by making rinsing more efficient and easier. This makes sense if you have to rinse off the acid mix. And no doubt, most stains require an acid rinsing. We do it ourselves when using a stain other than Ready Seal.

It is the "soap" part of citralic that is confusing. In posts on ESI's recent offer of 10 free lbs. of HD-80, Russell referred to sodium hydroxide as "soap". I'm sure they do not put NaOH in a citralic neutralizer/brightener. When I think of soap, I think of Dawn, Ivory, Irish Spring! What does that have to do with an acid brightener?

No matter, it is interesting but not applicable to our process. We will keep on using straight citric acid and not rinsing when using Ready Seal. It just works.

[plainpainter 217]

Rick - these guys refer to their surfactant 'package' which may or may not included detergent builders along with detergents as a 'soap'. Basically it's the base before they decide what to do with it - add sodium hydroxide and voila you have HD-80, or add oxalic acid and voila you have citralic brightener. The only difference being they may adjust the detergent 'builder' to be in the same ph range as the final product so a bucket of citralic won't contain TSP or STPP along with some surfactant, but may contain SAPP or whatever.

I agree with your readyseal and citric acid - you don't need to be concerned with what we're doing. And I like the idea of adding Vitamin C to a deck and not rinsing. Vitamin C will also De-Chlorinate bleach! You can clean a nasty deck with bleach and acid rinse with Citric acid and not have bleach residues! But I would advise applying the citric acid directly to the dwelling bleach prior to rinsing.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

Thanks for the explanation, makes much more sense. What is "SAPP" and "STPP"?

Vitamin C will also De-Chlorinate bleach! You can clean a nasty deck with bleach and acid rinse with Citric acid and not have bleach residues! But I would advise applying the citric acid directly to the dwelling bleach prior to rinsing.

Now there is an interesting and useful bit of information! We generally do not use a bleach mix on bare wood, only use it for Ready Seal maintenance work where stain is still in the wood.

Once in a blue moon come across a severely dirty, mold and mildewed mess, that we will first clean with bleach, do a second cleaning with a percarb, and finish off with citric. Have one coming up next month.

I guess due to the 2nd percarb cleaning, have never noticed a bleach type dull look to the wood before. Just wondering if there would be any benefit to hitting the wood twice with the citric.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick - these guys refer to their surfactant 'package' which may or may not included detergent builders along with detergents as a 'soap'. Basically it's the base before they decide what to do with it - add sodium hydroxide and voila you have HD-80, or add oxalic acid and voila you have citralic brightener. The only difference being they may adjust the detergent 'builder' to be in the same ph range as the final product so a bucket of citralic won't contain TSP or STPP along with some surfactant, but may contain SAPP or whatever.

Very well written!

Beth