Ipe' stain shoot out

[RPetry 564]

Last year, it was a citric - oxalic acid prep comparison on ipe'. The results were inconclusive. This year, it is a stain appearance and longitivity comparison.

Finally got around to working on my own ipe' deck. Wood was lightly stripped (3 oz./gal. NaOH) and washed, followed by a citric acid brightening. Citric was allowed to dry on the wood but overnight rains probably rinsed it off anyway. Sanded lightly with a RO with 60 grit.

As Armstrong-Clark has gotten a lot of attention this year, decided to stain with their "rustic brown" color to test for the full deck. But kept a floor board open for other products.

Left to right in the picture. Armstrong-Clark rustic brown, WoodTux warm honey gold, Defy - Deck Stains for Hardwoods, cedar tone color (water based), Benjamin Moore Alkyd Transparent Hardwood Finish - natural 321 10 color, Ready Seal light brown color.

The picture was taken immediately after application. All stains except the areas of the Defy are still wet.

Thanks to Scott Paul for the Defy sample, Jake Clark for the Armstrong-Clark stain, and Benjamin Moore for their new hardwood stain sample. These were provided free of charge.

The Ready Seal and WoodTux were purchased by my company for customer jobs.

[RPetry 564]

Here is a picture of a hardwood deck we did in 2007. I was shocked to see that the Messmers held the color for the full two years. The only thing wrong was that it was very dirty from all the trees. It did not turn black at all.

I believe this deck is Mahogany since the HO said it was. It looks like IPE to me though.

Scott,

I agree, the grain certainly looks like ipe', not mahogany. If so, that is terrific color retention at the two yr. mark.

The reason may very well be your "all the trees" statement. UV from sunlight seems to be the major factor in pigment degradation.

[Scott Paul 164]

Scott,

I agree, the grain certainly looks like ipe', not mahogany. If so, that is terrific color retention at the two yr. mark.

The reason may very well be your "all the trees" statement. UV from sunlight seems to be the major factor in pigment degradation.

True but it still gets alot of sun since it faces south. You can see at the far end of the picture that it was getting full sun when I took the picture.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick,

If I read you right are you saying....

1. Defy (and is this oil or acrylic)

2. Armstrong Clark

3. Benj Moore & tux tie

4. Ready Seal?

Please advise.....

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Rick,

If I read you right are you saying....

1. Defy (and is this oil or acrylic)

2. Armstrong Clark

3. Benj Moore & tux tie

4. Ready Seal?

Please advise.....

Beth

Beth,

As far as pigment retention, yes, that order is correct.

The Defy is waterbase. A-C is a very close second to the Defy. WT & BM are quite "blotchy" in appearance. RS is more even but has less remaining pigment, probably due to a single application and the light color used.

[plainpainter 217]

More importantly Rick - how does this impact how you will choose products for the upcoming season? You still sticking with readyseal? Going to give the 'acrylic' a try from now on?

[Scott Paul 164]

Rick,

If I read you right are you saying....

1. Defy (and is this oil or acrylic)

2. Armstrong Clark

3. Benj Moore & tux tie

4. Ready Seal?

Please advise.....

Beth

Defy is a water based synthetic resin. It does not film like other water bases. Here is the product data sheet.

http://www.opwdecks.com/hardwood.pdf

[RPetry 564]

More importantly Rick - how does this impact how you will choose products for the upcoming season? You still sticking with readyseal? Going to give the 'acrylic' a try from now on?

Daniel,

Ready Seal has been our primary product for the past 6 or 7 years, and I see nothing on the market presently that will change that.

Armstrong-Clark, though different, appears to be a very good hybrid stain, and we will probably use it on a few specific jobs this season.

Ipe' is a whole other animal. On very weathered wood, you can get two apps. of RS into ipe', and it lasts about a year, similar to other stains. Otherwise, if going with an oil base, A-C may be better due to the top linseed oil barrier.

I'm going to reserve judgment until Sept. on this "test", when the stains have been exposed a full year.

[RPetry 564]

Defy is a water based synthetic resin. It does not film like other water bases. Here is the product data sheet.

http://www.opwdecks.com/hardwood.pdf

Scott,

Thanks for the link. Have you ever tried to strip this stain?

Defy recommends using their stripper, which is a sodium hydroxide - sodium metasilicate solution, followed by a brightener.

[charlie 14]

hd80 or there stripper will work on it.

Charlie

[Scott Paul 164]

Scott,

Thanks for the link. Have you ever tried to strip this stain?

Defy recommends using their stripper, which is a sodium hydroxide - sodium metasilicate solution, followed by a brightener.

Plenty of times. Never have an issue getting it off.

[RPetry 564]

Scott & Charlie,

Do not know anything about waterbased exterior wood stains, aside from acrylics and latex. We do not use them.

But we do occasionally strip them. And NaOH strippers are ineffective. Defy, although waterbased, can be easily stripped with HD80 or other NaOH strippers?

Thanks.

[Scott Paul 164]

Scott & Charlie,

Do not know anything about waterbased exterior wood stains, aside from acrylics and latex. We do not use them.

But we do occasionally strip them. And NaOH strippers are ineffective. Defy, although waterbased, can be easily stripped with HD80 or other NaOH strippers?

Thanks.

IMO if it penetrates into the wood then it can be easily stripped with NaOH. That goes if it is a water based or an oil based. Defy when applied properly will penetrate into the wood, thusly can be stripped effectively.

Rick, you applied the Defy, did it penetrate or film-form on top of the wood like an acrylic?

[RPetry 564]

IMO if it penetrates into the wood then it can be easily stripped with NaOH. That goes if it is a water based or an oil based. Defy when applied properly will penetrate into the wood, thusly can be stripped effectively.

Rick, you applied the Defy, did it penetrate or film-form on top of the wood like an acrylic?

Scott,

No. The Defy applied with no apparent film. Appears by eye to penetrate similar to an oil. Mind you, this is ipe', where nothing penetrates to any great degree.

The "new" BM waterbase was similar, but did not hold its color as well as the Defy, and was variable. Odd, I looked at an ipe' deck last year that had held its color quite well for 3 yrs. with a BM waterbased stain.

As you may well appreciate, us old timers are very leery of anything not oil. Some has to do with "conditioning" the wood, but the primary reason has to do with maintenance. With paraffinics, its just a light bleach cleaning and a single app. Linseed may or not need a stripping prior to reapplication.

Ipe' is a tough nut. Will be doing two ipe' jobs next week, weather permitting, one that has weathered for 4 yrs, that will get RS. Another is 3 yrs. old, with WoodTux applied two yrs. ago. That will get stripped and Armstrong-Clark applied.

In Sept., might as well strip my own ipe' deck and use Defy as a test. Never thought I'd use a waterbased stain on exterior wood, but willing to give it a go. Maybe old dogs can learn new tricks.

[charlie 14]

This is how i would do deck using Defy

1 clean and neutrize it

2 Lightly sand with 80 grit sandpaper

3 Apply defy as directed I use a pad make sure there is no puddling up.

Charlie

Defy has a syntheic resin in it which helps penetrate into the wood.

Edited April 2, 2009 by charlie

[Scott Paul 164]

In Sept., might as well strip my own ipe' deck and use Defy as a test. Never thought I'd use a waterbased stain on exterior wood, but willing to give it a go. Maybe old dogs can learn new tricks.

Rick, I am no differrent then you. I still use oil based products on 95% of my decks. Water based is the future and they are getting better every year. Defy is the only water based product that I like. Probably because it is the only that penetrates like an oil.

Let me know when you want to try it on your deck. I will send you a pail at no charge.

[RPetry 564]

Charlie,

Thanks. If you are stripping Defy with HD80, that alleviates some fear and potential problems. BTW, we use 60 grit.

Scott,

Thank you for the offer but no need. As my ipe' deck is small, 2 gals. will be more than enough. Friggin' ipe' takes virtually no stain at all.

I'll wait until Sept. at the one year mark and if we have some time, strip the A-C and give it a whirl. That is, if the Defy holds up as well as the 6 month mark!

Thanks again.

[charlie 14]

What do you fear with using hd80 to remove defy.

charlie

[RPetry 564]

What do you fear with using hd80 to remove defy.

charlie

Charlie,

We do not use HD80 but a sodium hydroxide stripper that is very similar. We may have stripped a semi-trans. waterbase stain in the past, but never known it (ie: customer has no idea of what deck stain was used). Actually now that I think about it, we did strip what was most certainly a 1 yr. old waterbase semi off of a large mahogany deck last season. Our NaOH stripper worked very well. Virtually all the waterbased stains we see here are solid acrylic or latex and vanilla sodium hydroxide strippers are not very effective.

Just wanted to make sure we did not have to use Defy's proprietary wood stripper. At $16/gal. plus tax and shipping, that gets expensive real fast.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I will mention in our 1 experience with removing Defy, the product left a residue in the wood that made it turn blue which required us to sand in order to remove it.

Rod!~

[RPetry 564]

I will mention in our 1 experience with removing Defy, the product left a residue in the wood that made it turn blue which required us to sand in order to remove it.

Rod!~

Rod,

Holy smokes, blue? Was this ipe' or another hardwood? Yikes, that is awful. Did you use NaOH followed by an acid brightener?

This is why I like to test new stains before applying to customer's wood. What the heck could turn wood blue? Time to dig into the MSDS for any clue.

[charlie 14]

I never had defy turn blue, been using it a very long time.

Charlie

Do this take a piece of wood apply defy then strip it sept and see what happens.

[Scott Paul 164]

I will mention in our 1 experience with removing Defy, the product left a residue in the wood that made it turn blue which required us to sand in order to remove it.

Rod!~

I have sold over 10,000 gallons of Defy and this is the first I have ever heard of it turning "blue". Must be something unique in your scenario.

[mas3372 14]

I will be sealing my cumaru deck next week, very similar to Ipe. It has weathered about 7 months and I dont' mind sealing it now and again at the end of summer. No rails, just decking makes it easy. The deck needs to be sanded as well. I read here that everyone washes, neutrilizes then sands...I would think to sand first so the dust is washed away. Is there a reason to sand last?

Also, I am tossed between readyseal right now and woodtux. I recieved samples from ready seal today, light brown, med brown, cedar and light red and they all look the same on the test piece. However, the test peice has not weathered like my deck. Any thoughts?

[RPetry 564]

Mike,

The reason we sand last as follows. Pressure washing, whether using a sodium percarbonate wood cleaner or sodium hydroxide stripper, "raises the grain". Not sure but the acid neutralizer/brightener may contribute. In other words, ipe' will "fuzz" to a small degree, it's readily apparent when you apply an oil based stain, if linseed oil or paraffinic oil. Trust me, if you want a "picture" finish, a very light sanding prior to stain application is needed.

As far as RS colors go, ipe' is similar to true mahogany, aside from the one "light" color. I do not think RS makes a "light red", only a light brown which looks terrific on western red cedar. My advice would be to go with a med. red, med. brown, or natural cedar on a wood similar to ipe'.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I have sold over 10,000 gallons of Defy and this is the first I have ever heard of it turning "blue". Must be something unique in your scenario.

I'm pretty sure Rod is referring to what we have seen with an acrylic of theirs circa....2002 I want to say? Have seen it with other things as well, sometimes it looks white, or opaque, some see it as a blue...has to do with moisture and humidity and the effects on acrylics. This is actually true with a number of acrylic products....

Beth