Ipe' stain shoot out

[RPetry 564]

Last year, it was a citric - oxalic acid prep comparison on ipe'. The results were inconclusive. This year, it is a stain appearance and longitivity comparison.

Finally got around to working on my own ipe' deck. Wood was lightly stripped (3 oz./gal. NaOH) and washed, followed by a citric acid brightening. Citric was allowed to dry on the wood but overnight rains probably rinsed it off anyway. Sanded lightly with a RO with 60 grit.

As Armstrong-Clark has gotten a lot of attention this year, decided to stain with their "rustic brown" color to test for the full deck. But kept a floor board open for other products.

Left to right in the picture. Armstrong-Clark rustic brown, WoodTux warm honey gold, Defy - Deck Stains for Hardwoods, cedar tone color (water based), Benjamin Moore Alkyd Transparent Hardwood Finish - natural 321 10 color, Ready Seal light brown color.

The picture was taken immediately after application. All stains except the areas of the Defy are still wet.

Thanks to Scott Paul for the Defy sample, Jake Clark for the Armstrong-Clark stain, and Benjamin Moore for their new hardwood stain sample. These were provided free of charge.

The Ready Seal and WoodTux were purchased by my company for customer jobs.

[GAPainter 14]

Edit: Dumb statement, I have A-C on my own ipe'!

I was wondering. I would have sworn I read you had Rustic Brown on there or something.:D

[scot 14]

Rick: Any chance you could take another picture of the test, but with a bit more light? (ISO 100/ 1/200+ if at all possible). I'm curious to see if the differences look a bit more drastic between the selctions, and to compare to the original decking.

Scot

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick: Any chance you could take another picture of the test, but with a bit more light? (ISO 100/ 1/200+ if at all possible). I'm curious to see if the differences look a bit more drastic between the selctions, and to compare to the original decking.

Scot

Are you a photographer?

Please also go to your My Controls and add your signature.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Rick: Any chance you could take another picture of the test, but with a bit more light? (ISO 100/ 1/200+ if at all possible). I'm curious to see if the differences look a bit more drastic between the selctions, and to compare to the original decking.

Scot

Scot,

The last time I used an SLR was about 20 yrs. ago. Too busy now to relearn photography, here is another digital shot. It will have to do. A-C rustic brown on the left, Ready Seal light brown on the right. Additional stains are detailed in this thread.

[Scott Paul 164]

Here is a picture of a hardwood deck we did in 2007. I was shocked to see that the Messmers held the color for the full two years. The only thing wrong was that it was very dirty from all the trees. It did not turn black at all.

I believe this deck is Mahogany since the HO said it was. It looks like IPE to me though.

Here is same deck that we refinished last week again with Messmers UV Plus for Hardwoods in the Red Mahogany color.

[Scott Paul 164]

Here's the before picture that was posted in thread earlier. The Messmers held up very well for the 2 years.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Scott Paul

[Chappy 138]

is that IPE or Redwood?

All I can say to that is WOW!

[Scott Paul 164]

Thanks Jon!

[RPetry 564]

... The Messmers held up very well for the 2 years.

Scott,

The Messmer's did not hold up very well.

It held up exceptionally well for 2 yrs. on ipe'. I am curious, do you know the age and staining history of that job? Thanks.

Edited May 20, 2009 by RPetry

[Scott Paul 164]

Scott,

The Messmer's did not hold up very well.

It held up exceptionally well for 2 yrs. on ipe'. I am curious, do you know the age and staining history of that job? Thanks.

We have been maintaining this deck for 4 years now. I believe it was built 6 years ago. Here is out history

1. 2005: We came in to strip off Behr that was applied 2003. Applied Messmers Hardwood Stain in Natural

2. 2006: Stripped and recoated with Messmers Natural again.

3. 2007: Stripped and recoated with Messmers Red Mahogany.

4. 2008: No call this year. I wondered why since the HO said he wanted it done every year. Thought maybe I lost the job.

5. 2009: Called and said he needed it done again. I asked about 2008 and he said it looked much better with the Red Mahogany color and that it did not need to be done. I was sceptical but he was correct. This was the first and only time I have ever seen a stain hold up for 2 years on a hardwood.

[RPetry 564]

Scott,

Thanks so much for the detailed history of the ipe'. It certainly does not confirm, but does jive with my thoughts on stain and ipe'. With experience on customer's ipe' and the past 5 yrs. with my own ipe' deck, I have a few thoughts.

First, you stripped the wood 3 times prior to getting 2 years out of the Messmer's. I am of the mind that NaOH is beneficial in that it removes some of the natural wood extractives, thus allowing more penetration and "binding" of the stain. Stripping 3 times possibly allowed the Messmer's to penetrate better and last longer.

Second, if the initial Behr's was applied in 2003, the deck must be at least that old. By 2007, when the "2 yr. Messmer's" was applied, the ipe' was 5 years old at that point. Possibly, the older the ipe', the better stain longevity.

Pure speculation, but I'd like to figure out this difficult wood. Thanks again.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

With those great pics and all that said.... I can hardly get over the KellyMoore guy stressing to me that a deck has to be stripped every time.. Some just can not be helped as they do not listen to what your saying. All the guy could think on was Cabot acrylic..cabot acrylic, cabot acrylic.. due to his training of course.

[PressurePros 248]

Rick I do enjoy reading your writings. You have an uncanny ability to be scientific, objective and diplomatic.

Let me add one thought to Scott's getting longer life from the stain. Consider the variable of color. Red is the most reflective of the transoxide pigments and can handle the most amount of heat before it becomes sacrificial. The "natural" tone Scott used originally probably also had less pigment and/or non transoxide pigment in it.

[Scott Paul 164]

I agree with you Rick about the NaOh. It does allow better penetration with the stain.

Ken you are also correct with the Red Mahogany color. I do not believe they would have gotten the same results with the natural "lighter" tinted color. As you can see from my pictures, the red mahogany is fairly rich in color.

[RPetry 564]

... Red is the most reflective of the transoxide pigments and can handle the most amount of heat before it becomes sacrificial. The "natural" tone Scott used originally probably also had less pigment and/or non transoxide pigment in it.

Ken,

I did not know that, or if I did, I have forgotten. One of the problems with getting old.

Funny, my most popular, and personal favorite color for softwoods is RS medium red. Seems to last a long time, but it is more brown in appearance than red.

Put it down on an ipe' job earlier this spring. Still do not expect to get more than a year before servicing.

[James 624]

Reds and black colors blend better with dirt and mildew giving the appearance it looks better and what Ken said about there being more pigment per volume of oil for red or any darker color is true. If you do a lite Bleaching and rinse on either of the colors it would bring them back even or give you a better evaluation of the product. The Grey pigment I use is by far the best and longest lasting I use and easiest to redo.

It is amazing what a little bleach and water does after two years !!

[Chappy 138]

Here is a dock I did 11/07. Wood tux tinted to Mahagony. On lake with heavy shade on the boardwalk and full sun on dock. it had weathered 5 years before being stained by me.

the stain held up nicely on spindles, and still had some color on horizontals. Some surface mildew on the most shady part.

first pic is how it looked after finishing 16months ago.

I think the WT held up pretty well. If I had checked it at 1 year I bet It would have looked much better and I would have waited several months to restain anyway.

[Chappy 138]

Speaking of bleach and water. Downstreamed bleach on this and it took the remaining stain completely off.

[RPetry 564]

Speaking of bleach and water. Downstreamed bleach on this and it took the remaining stain completely off.

... It is amazing what a little bleach and water does after two years !!

Oh boy, not another Bleach debate! Where is Shane, the founder along with Diamond Jim of the BDA? Where is the Bleach Bandito? Ah, found him...

The old school dies hard.

[scot 14]

Scot,

The last time I used an SLR was about 20 yrs. ago. Too busy now to relearn photography, here is another digital shot. It will have to do. A-C rustic brown on the left, Ready Seal light brown on the right. Additional stains are detailed in this thread.

Only two months to respond :)

Thanks for the new photo. I am not a photographer, but had been working on an issue with a lens of mine, just got stuck talking in slr terms. Basically I just was trying to indicate a "film speed" (iso) that will get higher details and capture the contrast differences better. Most digicams will do this in portrait mode.

If you are curious as to why... Considering the deck isn't going anywhere, it is easy enough to slow down the camera shutter speed and use a lower (better) iso, which is done in portrait mode. Regular shooting modes set themselves up for movement to happen in the image (fast shutter) and cannot maximize the quality for a non moving object because the faster the shutter, the lower the light hitting the sensor. Portrait mode will make the image pop a bit more and allow the stains and the colors to show how they are doing. Only drawback is you have to hold your hand steady and it is best to make sure you are at a right angle from the object you are shooting, but thats easy on a deck.

Ugh now to decide, which to get for my deck (when it gets built this summer), defy since it is water based and seems to work or messmers since that also seems to work but it is oil based... I'm not a green freak or anything, but if there is no drawback the greener solution is better IMO.

Scot

[Scott Paul 164]

Rick, it has been a year. Which stain won? Should I be expecting an order soon or are you still a non-believer of a water based stain?:)

[RPetry 564]

Scott,

Sorry just got in, a long day. It is dark out, but took this picture.

By far and away, the Defy stain for hardwoods wins the prize for both color retention and even color.

I'll certainly give Defy a test on all of my own ipe' deck next year. As a contractor, still not thrilled with the makeup of waterbase stains, but maybe an old dog can learn new tricks, at least with ipe'.

My order will be next year, its everything we can do to wrap up wood work by the Orlando convention. The shoemaker's kids are going barefoot!

[PressurePros 248]

Bravo Defy! To me, ipe staining is about one thing.. color retention. There is no need to condition or fortify the wood. Mother Nature took care of that with natural oils and extractives.

I'll give it a look next year as well.

[RPetry 564]

Bravo Defy! To me, ipe staining is about one thing.. color retention. There is no need to condition or fortify the wood. Mother Nature took care of that with natural oils and extractives.

I'll give it a look next year as well.

Ken,

I agree. Ipe' is just so hard, dense, and downright bulletproof naturally as a species of wood, oil stains are probably superflous. The old, true Burmese teak is the only other exterior wood that comes close to a natural ability to stand up to the sun, moisture, freeze/thaw cycles without help.

One thing that is a bit of concern is maintenance. This Defy stain on application seems to penetrate the wood, unlike other waterbase stains. It does not "appear" to form any film on the surface. It acts like an oil. Weird.

Scott Paul may have some answers.

[RPetry 564]

One other consideration. Did not realize this until emailing a "test" picture to a "customer in progress" a few minutes ago. See attached pic. Ready Seal dark brown color on ipe'

Oil stains provide that Kaboom!, a real impressive, fine furniture like appearance to ipe'. An initial finish that Defy cannot compete with in appearance. Of course, as we know, that initial coloring with any oil does not last long.

We have some ipe' customers that will live with the constant cost and maintenance, maybe 30%. Otherwise, Defy at first glance appears to be a real competitor in the cost conscious, "its good enough" ipe' market.