Blackened decks

[plainpainter 217]

Now I have been using a certain vendors' product for staining my decks - and I have noticed some decks come out black as coal the next year. I've brought it up with him on his forum - and basically read me the riot act how mildewcides don't do anything to prevent mildew growth on the surface

That being said - I believe him - it's what has been taught to me by other represenatives and chemists in other firms. That a mildewcide is only good during curing process so mildew spores that attach to the still wet coating won't have a chance to grow into the curing stain. And of course there is the issue of new mildew strains - that I have personally witnessed myself in the last year.

But I still have this nagging feeling that other stains don't go 'black'. I want to continue using this persons' stain as it has been good to me in other regards. But I have store bought stain 3+ years old on covered porches with absolutely no blackness. I have a covered deck porch where I totally restored last summer and ground off 10 layers of paint down to fresh wood - and it's totally black now.

So is this luck of the draw? Is it true that mildewcides have no effect on regrowth on the surface? Is it my imagination that other stains have performed without going black? Is it that you just get unlucky with some locations? I want to tell homeowners that there is nothing that can be done to prevent blackness - that is has nothing to do with the coating. As this manu. brought up - afterall vinyl homes get mildew growth - which is totally true! And vinyl isn't food for mildew.

Yet somehow I still have this nagging feeling - that something can be done - and has been done with stains of the past to prevent them from going black. thoughts anyone?

[Scott Paul 164]

Most water based stains will not go black from mildew as they do not promote mildew growth.

[plainpainter 217]

But Scott - the arguement is that the mildew isn't really feeding off the coating - mildew doesn't feed off of vinyl - yet it grows rampantly upon vinyl surfaces as an example. Are there oil based coatings that you know of that don't turn black?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

But Scott - the arguement is that the mildew isn't really feeding off the coating - mildew doesn't feed off of vinyl - yet it grows rampantly upon vinyl surfaces as an example. Are there oil based coatings that you know of that don't turn black?

Mildew grows everywhere. However, I will say I have seen different scenarios...in some cases the mildew grows under the finish for several possible reasons, in some cases the mildew grows in the finish for a couple possible reasons, and also the finish can grow on top of the finish.

1. Under the finish - improper prep, improper cleaning, incomplete stripping *tip: carefully inspect the deck while wet BEFORE you call it a day
   
2. in the finish - formula issue, typically a biocide or mildewcide failure, perhaps an oil issue *tip: add extra mildewcide to your finishes prior to application
   
3. on top of the finish - due to moisture, pollutants, pollens, humidity, and/or exposure. *tip: maintenance washes help to keep #3 from becoming #2.
   

Hope this helps.

Beth

[plainpainter 217]

But Beth - lots of folks here, including yourself have said remarks about products such as penofin turning black after several months. And I know you always do proper prep. My question is if it's true that a mildewcide has no bearing on mildew growing on top of the surface - then why is certain products have gotten the reputation of turning black and others haven't? Is there something some manufactueres install into their products that get exuded during the life cycle of a stain that prevents mildew growth on top of a surface? I've heard rumours of some stains that include like a copper oxide - that I imagine gets slowly released over time as the stain gets older and deteriorates, much like the olden lead oil paints of yesteryear, which basically unleashes a powerful toxin to this microcopic vegetation. Thus preventing mildew growth from their decks.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Dan,

My opinion - mildewcides can and sometimes do fail, and your work could be spot on, making it a product issue. Look at the old Behr lawsuit years back. It was - as proven in court - a mildewcide issue.

Beth

[James 625]

Blackendecks is a special Cajun RecSoooHoPee for mildewphication. - It means the product sucks and does not live up to any meaningful standard. And the Gobbledygook that is given too you is just that Gobbledygook!! For some unknown reason the product you are refering too breaks down at the surface and absorbs water soon after it cures. Most products don't absorb any water into its self. Water usually evaporates and doesn't penetrate a product. At least in the first year anywho! When a product breaks down and absorbs moisture Mr Mold Spore is right there to start the Cajun Blackendeck process. Even though mildewsuicides are present they start mulitipling into BLACKENDECK !!

When you have a development like I do with many houses and you see a product change over time that you use. And you are able to compare and evaluate it with other products and watch them evolve over time. Well Dan, I have the same problem with the same product. The dreaded" Cajun Deck Syndrome". I had one garage door turn black in 4 months. There was a gutter problem on this house but I have other houses with the same gutter problems and no CDS ( different products) only where this product is not other products. I also have a few decks with CDS . Gee is it the product? This product attracts Mr Mold Spore

and makes it invasive. Causing the Dreaded BLACKENDECK or CDS for short witch is Cajun Deck Syndrome.

What is the product that causes Cajun Deck Syndrome that comes with Gobbledygook ? If you guess you can have my supply of product!

[Scott Paul 164]

But Scott - the arguement is that the mildew isn't really feeding off the coating - mildew doesn't feed off of vinyl - yet it grows rampantly upon vinyl surfaces as an example. Are there oil based coatings that you know of that don't turn black?

TWP rarely if ever turns black.

Mildew can grow on any surface, but it is known that linseed oil can promote mildew growth. There happens to be linseed oil in the majority of oil based stains.

[Scott Paul 164]

I also have never seen a parafinic oil stain such as Timberoil turn black.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

Try this. Put two coatings on a test board and let sit outside for a year. One coating is straight, boiled linseed oil. The other coating is a linseed oil based exterior wood stain, such as Wolman's F&P, WoodTux, or numerous others.

This should illustrate the difference that a mildewcide/fungicide makes in a properly manufactured exterior linseed oil based wood stain.

[plainpainter 217]

I also have never seen a parafinic oil stain such as Timberoil turn black.

So Scott - this would dispute the fact that mildew can grown on top of the surface of anything? But I do like the arguement - I know vinyl isn't a source of food for mildew - yet I clean tons of homes with mildew on their vinyl siding. I am perplexed.

[plainpainter 217]

Daniel,

Try this. Put two coatings on a test board and let sit outside for a year. One coating is straight, boiled linseed oil. The other coating is a linseed oil based exterior wood stain, such as Wolman's F&P, WoodTux, or numerous others.

This should illustrate the difference that a mildewcide/fungicide makes in a properly manufactured exterior linseed oil based wood stain.

So rick - you don't buy the arguement that a mildewcide has no ability to control surface growth of mildew after the stain has finished curing? I remember the old oil based lead painted homes that never had any mildew growth on them - as the paint chaulked - it constantly released lead oxides which didn't allow mold, mildews or algae to grow. I figured the same was true of mildewcides in deck stains. But apparently I have been told the only thing that mildewcide is good for is to not allow a mildew spore to take 'root' while the stain is still wet. But afterwards - any mildew can grow on top of a surface much like it does with mildew.

But as Scott says - TWP never turns black - and Jarrod said the same thing - and I believe them. I have used stains in the past that didn't turn black either. Man the good ol' days - one step bleach/tsp cleaning - and off the shelf stains that were far cheaper than what I use now - yet somehow I got better results then!

[James 625]

Moisture promotes mildew growth. On Vinyl it is a accumulative effect of moisture being on a surface that attracts the spores. How long it stay's wet be fore drying ?

On a deck its a combinations of moisture and the product you use can be a food source. Any Drying oil is a food source for mold spores. Over application of a product is a cause for CDS or just a stinky product. The more a board cups and holds water, The area the sees the least amount sun promotes mold.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

So Scott - this would dispute the fact that mildew can grown on top of the surface of anything? But I do like the arguement - I know vinyl isn't a source of food for mildew - yet I clean tons of homes with mildew on their vinyl siding. I am perplexed.

Shouldn't be so perplexing Dan. The more prone a surface is at being exposed to polutants or airborne dust,dirt, spore, etc. along with moisture the more likely it is that stuff is gonna use it as a base to grow on.

about products such as penofin turning black after several months.

Don't forget that some situation or examples sited were not about mold but rather about extractive/ph issues...you know the whole redwood only thing..

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

The way I understand it is that if there is a mildewcide failure in the product, this allows for a suitable condition to allow mildew to grow and proliferate especially in linseed/tung oil formulated products.

Failures in my opinion are probably occuring due to the introduction of alcohols in the latest formulations to lower voc's and possibly creating an environment that is incompatible with the polyphase used in most products with them. This is my best guess and don't jump me for speculation here.

We have begun addding a mildewcide to each container as a precaution due to extended and sometimes undeterminable dry/cure times.

Rod!~

[RPetry 564]

So rick - you don't buy the arguement that a mildewcide has no ability to control surface growth of mildew after the stain has finished curing? ...

Daniel,

Not exactly. What I am saying is that linseed oil is a well known food source for mildew. Manufacturers of linseed oil based stains must add the proper and compatible mildewcides/fungicides to prevent mildew growth. If a stain turns black, it is probably more than "surface" growth, the organisms are into the stain, and possibly into the wood.

Back in 2002, Behr's settled a class action lawsuit upwards of $150 million for bad stain with ineffective mildewcides/fungicides. Many of the most costly settlements were in the Pacific Northwest where wood was actually being slowly degraded by mold/mildew infestation.

I occasionally run into old decks where this Behr's effect is easily seen. The wood is discolored in spot areas, in the substrate of the wood, from old mildew growth. And you cannot strip or clean it out.

[dsp powerwash 14]

I checked on some decks this week that I did last year. Woodtux decks dull and moldy .TWP 200 decks clean and bright.

[plainpainter 217]

I checked on some decks this week that I did last year. Woodtux decks dull and moldy .TWP 200 decks clean and bright.

I have no experience with TWP - but this is exactly what I have been hearing. I actually very much like ESI's timberoil product - but this is an arguement in favor of the Readyseal camp. I use timberoil for my own deck, as I don't mind giving it a yearly wash and a 'refreshment' of oil. I just feel most of my customers would be dead set against me coming out this often - where as I am sure others would like this service. I am not saying woodtux is a bad stain - it's mostly what I use now - but it was sold to be 4-6 times better than the competitor - and lately it just ain't meeting expectations. I am very confused - I know the past two years has been awful for mildew as the summers are extremely wet - and global warming has had documented fervent growth of plants such as poison ivy in the northeast - that I am sure mildews have benefitted as well.

I am not making accusations - the jury is still out - just not really pleased lately. Got some A.C. I will be trying on my front steps - that should be a good test.

[dsp powerwash 14]

Dan TWP 200 series is a parrafin oil product. It is the same thing as bakers. Actually bakers is thinned down TWP.

[A and J POWERWASHING 64]

rod what are you guys add to your stain as protector against mildew

[ShineBrite LLC 14]

I wish I had read this forum earlier. One guy I have done a lot of work for is a lumber importer and has a slew of various woods on his decks and dock. He decided Penofin was the way to go and for the past two seasons I have stripped and reapplied it at his request. Looks great for the summer lake season, then turns black by late fall. Really hard to remove. I think it's time to talk him into something different.

Maybe TWP200, from what I see here. He has sections of Spanish cedar, cumaru, ipe, and some other stuff can't spell. I spoke to Armstrong Clark abouth this particular job and Jake claims the AC will not blacken. I have added copper naphtenate to sealers before and I may try it here as well. Maybe try a few different ideas on different sections if the guy will let me.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I checked on some decks this week that I did last year. Woodtux decks dull and moldy .TWP 200 decks clean and bright.

I can believe it! In fact, we are seeing that here too.

Beth :cup:

[James 625]

I was referring to WoodTux with regards to CDS .

[RPetry 564]

I was referring to WoodTux with regards to CDS .

Jim,

You mentioned garage doors turning black with WoodTux stain applied within 4 months. Were these door done with this year's WoodTux formula?

Reason I ask is we did one job this year with WoodTux, a large red mahogany deck where the owner desired that "look". Reason I ask, I'll have to schedule a time slot next spring for a possible strip and restain.

Anyone else having this problem with this season's WoodTux? Thanks.

[plainpainter 217]

I am having the same problems Rick. But isn't Mahogany like ipe, in that it's a yearly strip anyways?

[RPetry 564]

I am having the same problems Rick. But isn't Mahogany like ipe, in that it's a yearly strip anyways?

Daniel,

No. Red mahogany, unless new, accepts a lot of oil. We get 2 yrs. before maintenance with red mahogany when using Ready Seal, the same as PT, cedar, and redwood.

Are the "black" problems you are experiencing evident from this year's iteration of WoodTux?