Blackened decks

[plainpainter 217]

Now I have been using a certain vendors' product for staining my decks - and I have noticed some decks come out black as coal the next year. I've brought it up with him on his forum - and basically read me the riot act how mildewcides don't do anything to prevent mildew growth on the surface

That being said - I believe him - it's what has been taught to me by other represenatives and chemists in other firms. That a mildewcide is only good during curing process so mildew spores that attach to the still wet coating won't have a chance to grow into the curing stain. And of course there is the issue of new mildew strains - that I have personally witnessed myself in the last year.

But I still have this nagging feeling that other stains don't go 'black'. I want to continue using this persons' stain as it has been good to me in other regards. But I have store bought stain 3+ years old on covered porches with absolutely no blackness. I have a covered deck porch where I totally restored last summer and ground off 10 layers of paint down to fresh wood - and it's totally black now.

So is this luck of the draw? Is it true that mildewcides have no effect on regrowth on the surface? Is it my imagination that other stains have performed without going black? Is it that you just get unlucky with some locations? I want to tell homeowners that there is nothing that can be done to prevent blackness - that is has nothing to do with the coating. As this manu. brought up - afterall vinyl homes get mildew growth - which is totally true! And vinyl isn't food for mildew.

Yet somehow I still have this nagging feeling - that something can be done - and has been done with stains of the past to prevent them from going black. thoughts anyone?

[MichiganPowerWashing.com 14]

I was using Penofin for many years and I have never seen it turning black. I did over 900 decks with penofin alone and no problems.

The only time I saw something like that it was on 3 story wood house which was sprayed with penofin from the ground using big ass pump and the garden hose by the builder when the house was new and it was over 10 years ago.

Penofiin says LESS IS BETTER , but they applied this motto also to the production process so this year was the first "penofin free" for me and the smell is gone too ! ;-)

By the way .... Some of the decks I stained with penofin were looking VERY GOOD after 4-5 years .... strange

But Beth - lots of folks here, including yourself have said remarks about products such as penofin turning black after several months. And I know you always do proper prep. My question is if it's true that a mildewcide has no bearing on mildew growing on top of the surface - then why is certain products have gotten the reputation of turning black and others haven't? Is there something some manufactueres install into their products that get exuded during the life cycle of a stain that prevents mildew growth on top of a surface? I've heard rumours of some stains that include like a copper oxide - that I imagine gets slowly released over time as the stain gets older and deteriorates, much like the olden lead oil paints of yesteryear, which basically unleashes a powerful toxin to this microcopic vegetation. Thus preventing mildew growth from their decks.

Edited November 3, 2008 by MichiganPowerWashing.com

[plainpainter 217]

Daniel,

No. Red mahogany, unless new, accepts a lot of oil. We get 2 yrs. before maintenance with red mahogany when using Ready Seal, the same as PT, cedar, and redwood.

Are the "black" problems you are experiencing evident from this year's iteration of WoodTux?

I don't know how to answer you, other than to say - if you believe late year '07 product with no curing issues is the same as '08 product. Then yes there is problem. I have some late year '06 product that precedes the drying problems - with some awful looking results. I did a beautiful deck in sept/oct of '07 - and when I went back there 6 weeks later to do some interior painting for the homeowner - the deck wasn't beading water at all. Claims are that wtw 'sheets' water instead - I was skeptical - but had no real proof otherwise, so I shut up. I now believe all good products should 'bead' water - and this 'sheeting' is just hocus pocus for a coatings failure. Timberoil 'sheets' water as well - like 8 months after application and oils have been washed out - something you would expect.

Personally I think I am in a better position than most - as I sanded every square inch of decks after restoration - something lots of contractors don't do - I still did out of habit. And the product reacts totally different - absorbs totally different, and hopefully allows me to clean up the surface and 'maintain' the finish without re-stripping. And other comments I heard, Rick, if the deck wasn't dark - other customers talked about it being faded. If I want a deck stain that fades tremendously - I only need to pay $20/gallon for it.

That stain solved lots of problems - like staining decks a foot off the ground for starters - or early year moisture. I also want the technology for 'maintenance' customers - where I can mop on a light cleansing solution - hose off - and then apply a coat without having to make a second trip. I am sure of the quality of the competitors here, but that wet technology was beginning to make my life easy - I'll miss it.

[plainpainter 217]

Rick here is some porch and front steps I restored in May '07 using the wtw honey gold stain. It was part of a total exterior house paint job - so it's not like this is an exclusive deck resto customer - if it was I would feel real bad. The original porch boards were original fir with like half a dozen coats of porch paint. I concocted a recipe of sulfuric acid and surfactant along with a coupld hours of continual application/dwell. I finally used high pressure to knock it off - a light misting of sodium bicarbonate to neutralize any acid leftover and loads of rinsing. Because it was 6+ coats of paint - and I used high pressure. I ended up not sanding the entire porch - but actually using a porter cable grinder. The boards were beautiful when I was done.

The front steps and treads however were totally beyond repair - so the homeowner had them totally replaced. So early June - he asked me if I would coat the treads. They weren't nailed down more than 2 days fresh from the lumberyard and totally kiln dried - when I splased some woodtux on them - you be the judge..... BTW this was sept '06 formula and the porch has a roof - so no direct weathering to boot!

[plainpainter 217]

Here is a few more, taken this morning....

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

Sulfuric acid followed by a sodium bicarbonate neutralizer is certainly not a typical prep for exterior wood. But I guess if you grinded it down to bare wood, chem prep would make little difference in stain appearance or longetivity.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

I was using Penofin for many years and I have never seen it turning black. I did over 900 decks with penofin alone and no problems.

The only time I saw something like that it was on 3 story wood house which was sprayed with penofin from the ground using big ass pump and the garden hose by the builder when the house was new and it was over 10 years ago.

Penofiin says LESS IS BETTER , but they applied this motto also to the production process so this year was the first "penofin free" for me and the smell is gone too ! ;-)

By the way .... Some of the decks I stained with penofin were looking VERY GOOD after 4-5 years .... strange

Is why I mentioned extractive blackening on redwood...now what is this I hearin about peno formula change?. I always assumed the extreme nasty smell that lasts for weeks was from terps. On the lasting 4-5 year...is that in the sun and by use of the red can?. I've seen red version go totaly colorless in direct sun in under two year but seen blue label look like new undergoing same amount of time in the shade.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Here is a few more, taken this morning....

ya know some pay good money to get that 'old aged/patina' look on things..do they like it or hate it?

[plainpainter 217]

Daniel,

Sulfuric acid followed by a sodium bicarbonate neutralizer is certainly not a typical prep for exterior wood. But I guess if you grinded it down to bare wood, chem prep would make little difference in stain appearance or longetivity.

Rick I was removing 6+ coats of porch & floor paint, some latex and some oil based in the mix. As I knew this was totally out of the realm of HD-80. I decided to go in the opposite direction in the ph range - as I was very familiar in the past of how well batter acid removes paint! The sodium bicarbonate - was the 'neutralizer', albeit against common sense - remember I went on the totally opposite end of the scale - the bicarbonate of soda is like a ph of 8 - using it to neutralize the sulfuric acid - I was still left with very light colored wood. But like you said - I ended up grinding a whole bunch of wood anyways. But I will find the photos of when it was freshly restored.

[plainpainter 217]

ya know some pay good money to get that 'old aged/patina' look on things..do they like it or hate it?

I haven't dared ask! This job is about 15 months old now - but still an utter failure in my opinion. Not to mention the porch covered floorboards would have still looked dang good after 3 years with my previous stain.

Goes to show the mildew failure doesn't even need direct water on top of it to get it going like Jim thought - this is porch covered, so it's pretty dry even during rainstorms!

Cajun Blackened Deck!!!!!

[MMI Enterprises 289]

ahh..don't beat yerelf up over it.. job like that with all them coatings being removed is like a situation where they should be thankful it still intact..lol.. Personally I would have prepared customer for the possability that they have to go through a couple restainings before they have chance at durability and stability of coloring. We don't always see all the things that can go wrong, all we can do is try to work with what we got. Sometimes we got past basis or experience and sometimes we don't. Sometmes we just got crap wood. Sometimes we got understanding customers and proper expectation.

[MichiganPowerWashing.com 14]

Is why I mentioned extractive blackening on redwood...now what is this I hearin about peno formula change?. I always assumed the extreme nasty smell that lasts for weeks was from terps. On the lasting 4-5 year...is that in the sun and by use of the red can?. I've seen red version go totaly colorless in direct sun in under two year but seen blue label look like new undergoing same amount of time in the shade.

"New" penofin lost a lot of pigments. Now it looks like oil with some dirt in it .... several years ago it was completely opposite ... lots of "dirt" and some oil :).

I have never used red label because here in MI it was almost impossible to find it.

Normally penofin will last about 1 year in MI . Penofin lasting at least 4 years was always on never treated before wood and on the sun most of the day.

Moisture is way worst stain enemy than suns uv rays

[James 625]

It's very simple to me . All the changes and the foolery with the product has not brought the desired results needed to use in or on public property. The stuff looks terrible after a year ( Vertical & Horizontal) . Mildew and degraded. I have a deck that I used my own formula with the product a season before the formula change that looks pretty good. 3 1/2 seasons ? It's OK on IPE because people expect it not to last but they don't know it was made not to last. I'm done with the product except for the few I maintain with it.

In my opinion Ipe is not worth the trouble and effort needed to maintain unless you are paid for it of course. You will find out customers get sick of it after 10 years and views change( on Maintenance). Unless it's a small deck and the couple has no kids or all the kids have moved out. I have changed a few to just cleaning and they are much happier !

The biggest issue with Woodtux is just getting Honest answers and trying to resolve problems. If you talk to the end users (us) and the maker(them) it's like where enemies and not on the same team. I hear this from everyone I've talked too concerning the resolution of a problem.

I can go on about this subject because I put in so much time changing the way I took care of Ipe. Two years !! Only to have the product #$#$%$%$#.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Bump - this is a very timely thread given the weather this season, and the performance of some finishes post VOC law change on the eastern seaboard.

Beth

[jnoden 15]

I need to re-do a customers deck that I did with WT last season. Two months after I did it it turned black.

[RPetry 564]

I need to re-do a customers deck that I did with WT last season. Two months after I did it it turned black.

Maybe strip the old Wood Tux off and redo with Armstrong-Clark?

[TNRoofCleaner 16]

Maybe strip the old Wood Tux off and redo with Armstrong-Clark?

:zipit: Was that a mistype? AC recomendation from Rick? LOL :dance:

[RPetry 564]

:zipit: Was that a mistype? AC recomendation from Rick? LOL :dance:

Pat,

Hey, if you are a contractor that prefers linseed oil type stains, I do not know of a better product to recommend!

[plainpainter 217]

Rick - just got done a mahogany deck - and for a linseed oil type stain - it sure sinks into the wood! It's part mineral oil as you know - you should switch over. It is the cat's meow!

[TNRoofCleaner 16]

Pat,

Hey, if you are a contractor that prefers linseed oil type stains, I do not know of a better product to recommend!

LOL I just found it funny at this was the first post I have seen you recommend AC. I am going to be doing dome testing with RS soon.

[RPetry 564]

Rick - just got done a mahogany deck - and for a linseed oil type stain - it sure sinks into the wood! It's part mineral oil as you know - you should switch over. It is the cat's meow!

Daniel,

Been there, done that, for a handful of jobs. Each one was a problem, whether it be the stain, our application, or maintenance.

We are parafin oil contractors, plain and simple. Our operations, vendors, chems, sprayers, and equipment is all geared to using RS. Been using it now for 8 or 9 years.

A-C is the best of the few we have tried. But RS in too many respects beats the pants off of any linseed oil product.

[topcoat 14]

Heres an ipe deck that we stripped Sikkens off last October and then applied Penofin hardwood. I went back in July to check things out (we are stripping the house this year) and was mortified. The deck looked as if we had never been there last fall.

Some of you are describing Penofin turning black, which I have never seen, but I have also never seen it completely disappear in less than a year. Granted, out of all the homes we work on, this one has the toughest lake exposure I have seen, but still...holy crap.

Anyone have any feedback on the Marine Penofin?

[plainpainter 217]

ipe is a hard animal to deal with, Scott, I hope I never get stuck with the stuff. Not that it needs staining to protect it like Rick and Jim have pointed out - but it will lose it's nice coating. I will definitely be upfront with folks thinking that anything over 9-12 months of longevity is possible

[topcoat 14]

ipe is a hard animal to deal with, Scott, I hope I never get stuck with the stuff. Not that it needs staining to protect it like Rick and Jim have pointed out - but it will lose it's nice coating. I will definitely be upfront with folks thinking that anything over 9-12 months of longevity is possible

I totally agree Dan. Any wood that has the structural density of steel just does not want to take much penetrating oil. It didnt like Sikkens either in that exposure. I hate to see them go silvery gray like weathered teak furniture, either. They are so beautiful when maintained but I agree with your earlier statement that the maintenance costs on a large deck are absurd. It only works for the customers who have lots of social gatherings and want everything to look perpetually perfect. This particular customer has seen the deck weather every year for 9 years, so they are not expecting the world. I would like to think there is a formulation that could be successful here, but I really doubt it.

[plainpainter 217]

Scott - if it was me - to get a stain to last long on ipe - I would kill it with OX - and then use a 'through' drying type tung oil based stain, something that dries rock hard. As you know from painting - the older lead style oil based paints dried enamel hard - and on top of original growth dense wood, house paint jobs lasted forever. Now we have 'marshmallow' growth wood - so paints have to flexible in order to last.

[topcoat 14]

Scott - if it was me - to get a stain to last long on ipe - I would kill it with OX - and then use a 'through' drying type tung oil based stain, something that dries rock hard. As you know from painting - the older lead style oil based paints dried enamel hard - and on top of original growth dense wood, house paint jobs lasted forever. Now we have 'marshmallow' growth wood - so paints have to flexible in order to last.

Dan - thats a good analogy for the situation. Are you describing something like a Waterlox exterior? What would be your product preference for an application like this? It would be nice to stumble upon something that would work for these "perfect storm" finish situations that we find ourselves in sometimes.