Mr. MoldSpore united with Mr. Timberoil

[plainpainter 217]

Before I start posting photos - a little background first. I use my own deck as a test bed - I am of the camp that a 'curing' style deck stain is superior than a non-drying - my preference, and the only one I believe I can sell to customers.

But that said I like to experiment on my own deck - I've had some real good failures with deck stain - and last year I decided to give the parafinnic style stain a try - so I decided to go with the king of stain manufacturers and go with the timberoil product - a titan of parafinnic stains right?

I mean think about all the advantages - no build up of curing resins - just a simple clean and re-soak the wood - and above all parafinnic oils are not food for those little itty bitty creepy crawlers we call mildew.

Well I stained my deck october of last year - with 2 good coats. And in '08 the stain was worn out - but I liked that I didn't have to 'restore' again - the deck was darkened, but nothing a little surfactant and bleach can't solve.

Well - along the way - one of my 2x6 railings rotted out - we always painted our railings and stained everything else - maybe that's why? Well turns out this one piece was longer than 16 feet - and the carpenter used KD framing lumber. So 2 months ago I got a piece of 2x6 16 feet long to replace it with - I hadn't measured - just assumed it was enough, that's when I came onto this whole discovery - I was a foot short - and PT doesn't come in lenghts greater than 16 feet for 2x6.

So I go to the lumber yard and ask them what I can do. We decided to buy a 2x10 that was 20 feet long and rip it down so I had a piece of 2x6 and another 2x4 each 20 feet long. I get back and cut it to length and install my new deck railing and let it sit for a couple of weeks. I then decide I am not going to continue painting the railings - the original railing will keep getting painted until they are replaced - but one by one - I will just stain the new replaced railings. Now this is important, at the time of installing this new railing - the remaining railings had been repainted with latex paint just 2 weeks prior.

So I let the new railing sit for 2 weeks - and give it a traditional bleach/TSP wash with a scrub brush and a solid rinse. The bleach wasn't strong - about 1.25% and I use a 1/4 cup of TSP per gallon - but the wood was nice and clean and the surface salts all extracted. I give it a dousing of Timberoil WHG - and lo and behold - it penetrated the new piece of PT - unlike a curing stain.

So I was happy with my results - now I have a solution for brand new spanking decks - that a parafinnic oil 180 degrees contrary to how I thought about stains - actually was the solution for brand new wood - and film/curing stain was not. So that was 6 weeks ago - 2 weeks ago something crepped up - and initially I thought perhaps it was som tannins from the nearby black walnut tree or something. And here are the photos that I took today....

[plainpainter 217]

So here are a few pics of Mr. MoldSpore and Mrs. Timberoil caught in the act - making love.....Don't you think it should be outlawed? What next will Mr. Moldspore and Mrs. Timberoil have marital rights???!?!?!

[plainpainter 217]

Here are few more pics of this salacious couple caught in the act - I feel like one of those paparazzi photograpers - documenting this unholy couple....Oh yeah remember how I talked about how I had painted the remaining original railings with latex paint - well there is absolutely no mildewifcation/cajun blackening going on with those railings - and I thought mildew grows on the surface of everything, right? And surely the advantages of a parafinnic stain is that it isn't food for mildew right - ha ha hah hahaha ahahah

[plainpainter 217]

Here is the other end of this 17foot long railing - the mildew has yet to migrate - but how much more time do you think this end has before it's making love with the mildewfication process? Aren't parafinnic oils not food for mildew? What the hell is going on???

[Palmetto Home and Deck 167]

“All phosphates, including trisodium phosphate (TSP), are so damaging to the environment, particularly lakes and rivers, that more than 19 states and several counties in 15 other states, limit the phosphorous content of household laundry products to 0.5% (this is assumed to be a virtual ban). The Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) from Rhone-Poulenc1 states; "Do not flush material into public sewer system or any water way."2

2. “Trisodium phosphate leaves a phosphate film on surfaces that if not thoroughly rinsed will cause adhesion failure and/or blistering of new paint or encapsulant. Experiences with workers performing lead abatement activities in residential properties suggest that it is very difficult to have them clean every surface. Imagine also requiring the complete rinsing at all surfaces to remove the difficult to rinse phosphate residue so that new paint or encapsulant will adhere”

Dan,

Mold spores are present in the air everywhere and attach themselves even to freshly milled lumber ready just sitting there ready for other factors in order to grow. Regardless of specific species, all mildew requires oxygen, water, a food source, and a narrow temperature range to metabolize and reproduce. Mildew needs water to grow. Consequently, as the humidity of the environment continues to rise, the mildew flourishes. For food, mildew generally metabolize organic food sources like starches, sugars, proteins, and some oils found in paint systems. Specifically, mildew can also feed on pollens, bacteria, or many other organic contaminants on the finished surface.

It’s obvious you know this by the way you described using bleach and TSP to clean your new 2x6. Using bleach on wood can open up a whole new can of worms on here, but perhaps your bleach solution was too weak to kill the mold spores letting them survive to come back and get you on another day.

Trisodium Phosphate was once used widely in cloths and dish washing detergents, but it was found to be causing severe algae blooms in the nation’s lakes and streams and since has been virtually banned in these products as from the quote above.

I don’t k now for sure, but if your bleach solution was too weak to kill the already present mold spores you may have actually fed them with the TSP. I know you said you solidly washed it, but since bleach and TSP are a base did you neutralize the board with an acid before staining?

[plainpainter 217]

It’s obvious you know this by the way you described using bleach and TSP to clean your new 2x6. Using bleach on wood can open up a whole new can of worms on here, but perhaps your bleach solution was too weak to kill the mold spores letting them survive to come back and get you on another day.

Len - I have had many years experience killing mold 1.25% is plenty - not to mention there was no evidence of mildew on this board - and the boards that are remaining sitting on saw horses still have no mildew on them.

Trisodium Phosphate was once used widely in cloths and dish washing detergents, but it was found to be causing severe algae blooms in the nation’s lakes and streams and since has been virtually banned in these products as from the quote above.

I don’t k now for sure, but if your bleach solution was too weak to kill the already present mold spores you may have actually fed them with the TSP. I know you said you solidly washed it, but since bleach and TSP are a base did you neutralize the board with an acid before staining?

I use caustics and oxalic process for restoring wood - I always use to use just bleach/tsp one step cleaings without absolutely any harmful side effects. I have been having problems with mildew this year - and I figured perhaps if I used an honest to goodness bleach - that may do the trick. Remember even if I left any 'residue' which I didn't - this is a parafinnic stain not a curing type that is more susceptible to high ph. TSP makes the bleach stronger - it is a detergent builder - softens the water - and it counteracts any whitening the bleach does to the wood. This mildew wasn't on the wood - you can see for yourself that is on top of the wood and migrating down the board.

Yeah I've heard that silly arguement that mildew can live anywhere - and while true - it was an arguement meant to make us contractors shut up and not complain about the stain performance. There use to be stains where mildew didn't grow on - that use to be a reality - it wasn't luck of the draw. Stains use to be formulated such that mildews didn't grow on them no matter what!

[James 624]

Dan, in CT this year I've had issues with the dreaded black mold problem and a couple of years ago. This type of mold comes around in the Northeast during very wet periods( when things stay wet for long periods continuously). If not removed its invasive! It will grow through the finish and into the wood and deep . On top it will get furry and fuzzy . If it was on the wood already your screwed. The spore will grow back it not terminated. Reclean with bleach and determine where mold is? .

It's the environmental Kamikaze Black Mold! They are a Rogue group! They float around in the air with only so much fuel and dive bomb unsuspecting deck.

Woodtux Blackendeck problem is seprate from this issue.

Edited November 10, 2008 by James

[plainpainter 217]

Well James - I certainly don't have a degree in molds, and with all the failures it's hard to tell the difference between what's at fault and what isn't. But if you above all else say it isn't a woodtux issue - then I believe you. Still gives fuel to the fire whether or not parafinnics are food for mildew or not. Man this has been a tough year in so many different ways! But why don't I see this mildew on adjacent latex painted railings?

[Palmetto Home and Deck 167]

Dan,

I'm certainly not questioning your expertise. I, like you, am searching for answers through a process of elimination. I have seen some of the same problems you are having and I have cleaned unsealed wood with percarb, citralic, and other cleaning solutions or compounds.

In addition to wondering about today's stains I'm starting to question if the treatment process of the lumber is having any overall effect. The old CCA seemed to do much better, but was it actually the wood or the stain in those days. Then come ACQ. I started seeing poorer performance and life expectancy of both the wood and the stain. And just this past year the treatment process has gone to MCQ. As a deck builder this is the poorest quality wood I have seen yet. I expect most decks built with this to warp, twist, check, and generally degrade in a much faster time than any previously treated lumber.

Like I said, I am looking for answers myself. Is treated wood quality and stain quality going down at the same time a coincidence or are the stains reacting to this new treatment process in some way.

Edited November 10, 2008 by Palmetto Home and Deck

[Scott Paul 164]

But why don't I see this mildew on adjacent latex painted railings?

Maybe because the mold was in the wood prior and you can see it coming through a transparent but not through a solid?

[MudDuck 20]

TSP makes the bleach stronger - it is a detergent builder - softens the water - and it counteracts any whitening the bleach does to the wood.

Just a question,,,I really didn't know this so I ask....Is it really true TSP counteracts the "bleaching" or discoloration properties of SH on wood? I won't get SH anywhere near a treated deck and change formulas when washing houses over on the deck side. (no bleach) I was going to ask how you didn't discolor your existing deck floor using bleach on the railings but if this is true I have my answer and some knowledge gained. Could you or someone briefly explain or cover this.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

Between you and Diamond Jim, the both of you gave me the creeps. Stopped by to look at the only 2 ESI stain jobs we did this year.

The first one was a 3 or 4 month old PT deck, stained with ESI's Timber Oil. Prepped with Restore (sodium percarbonate) wood cleaner, brightened with citric acid, and rinsed well. Normal prep.

Two separate apps of Timber Oil into the wood. It was at 12% moisture from a Delmhorst meter when stained. Had a call back and put down a 3rd Timber Oil application on the lower deck. No big deal, its new wood. And this part of the deck is nearly sitting on the ground, with a bare soil base.

Russell sent me the stain gratis, without a clue. Came home after the estimate and there it was on my doorstep. Gave the stain to the customer, one other reason I stopped by today was to give them the remainder of the stain. Cleaning out inventory for winter storage.

This job was completed on July 7th of this year. Today, the floor is very faded and blotchy, but again, new PT wood close to the ground. This deck gets a ton of sunlight for most of the day.

Horizontals are fine. But in one corner that is shaded, see the first picture. Look familiar? Something is wrong.

It is not paraffinic oil. Paraffinic oil is a byproduct of petroleum, nothing close to a vegetable or flax seed that makes up linseed oil. We have been using another paraffinic oil stain for six years without this problem. But then again, we rarely work on new wood.

Something is wrong. Either new PT wood, kiln dried or not, is infected with a mold or mildew. Or there is something in the Timber Oil promoting mildew/mold growth. Or, there is a new species of mildew/mold infesting the East coast.

The 2nd ESI job is a red mahogany, stripped, neutralized, rinsed, and stained with WoodTux in mid June of this year. Does not look all that great after 6 months, but without a bleach mix on hand cannot tell if the dark areas are mildew/mold or just dirt/weathering.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

“All phosphates, including trisodium phosphate (TSP), are so damaging to the environment, particularly lakes and rivers, that more than 19 states and several counties in 15 other states, limit the phosphorous content of household laundry products to 0.5% (this is assumed to be a virtual ban). The Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) from Rhone-Poulenc1 states; "Do not flush material into public sewer system or any water way."2

2. “Trisodium phosphate leaves a phosphate film on surfaces that if not thoroughly rinsed will cause adhesion failure and/or blistering of new paint or encapsulant. Experiences with workers performing lead abatement activities in residential properties suggest that it is very difficult to have them clean every surface. Imagine also requiring the complete rinsing at all surfaces to remove the difficult to rinse phosphate residue so that new paint or encapsulant will adhere”

Dan,

Mold spores are present in the air everywhere and attach themselves even to freshly milled lumber ready just sitting there ready for other factors in order to grow. Regardless of specific species, all mildew requires oxygen, water, a food source, and a narrow temperature range to metabolize and reproduce. Mildew needs water to grow. Consequently, as the humidity of the environment continues to rise, the mildew flourishes. For food, mildew generally metabolize organic food sources like starches, sugars, proteins, and some oils found in paint systems. Specifically, mildew can also feed on pollens, bacteria, or many other organic contaminants on the finished surface.

It’s obvious you know this by the way you described using bleach and TSP to clean your new 2x6. Using bleach on wood can open up a whole new can of worms on here, but perhaps your bleach solution was too weak to kill the mold spores letting them survive to come back and get you on another day.

Trisodium Phosphate was once used widely in cloths and dish washing detergents, but it was found to be causing severe algae blooms in the nation’s lakes and streams and since has been virtually banned in these products as from the quote above.

I don’t k now for sure, but if your bleach solution was too weak to kill the already present mold spores you may have actually fed them with the TSP. I know you said you solidly washed it, but since bleach and TSP are a base did you neutralize the board with an acid before staining?

This is another good reason to use a percarb....

Beth

[James 624]

Rick , I thought it was only during very wet periods ? That looks like the "The Rogue Mold" (PT wood) !! The Mahog looks like a Woodtux Blackendecker !

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Well.....heck. We have not used the Timber Oil, but have used both the Woodrich (blend of the timber oil and the WT) and the WT and have seen this same pattern on multiple species of wood. Some decks got a maintenance wash, some were stripped. This has NOT been a particularly wet year in MD., yet the mildew growth has been problematic. NOTE: we do not use TSP on decks.

Beth

[plainpainter 217]

Well before using any esi product - I always used bleach/tsp for cleaning and never ever had any problem - didn't need to neutralize either. I kill mildew with my house washes with 0.5% bleach and surfactants - 1.25% bleach and tsp is plenty.

Not to mention - have fun trying to kill mildew with efc-38! I don't diss percarbs, but obviously if that product is any indication of the products out there - then one has to formulate one's own percarb cleaner to get anything half way decent.

Rick - sorry for freaking you out. I don't know if this is ESI's fault - or just a new breed of mildew/mold out there. But lots of guys are reporting zero problems with bakers, TWP, etc. I will tell you this - that is brand new pt lumber - but there are several brand new pieces sitting within 30 feet of this railing on saw horses. They have not been cleaned and have not been stained - they are sitting outside in the rain and have no evidence of mold on them.

[RPetry 564]

Rick , I thought it was only during very wet periods ? That looks like the "The Rogue Mold" (PT wood) !! The Mahog looks like a Woodtux Blackendecker !

Diamond Jim,

It has been very wet here in Central NJ the past 10 days. We have a ton of RS jobs we did for the first time this year, PT, cedar, and mahogany. Also have 2 cedar Armstrong Clark's.

May have to drive around a day and check all of them out.

[plainpainter 217]

Just a question,,,I really didn't know this so I ask....Is it really true TSP counteracts the "bleaching" or discoloration properties of SH on wood? I won't get SH anywhere near a treated deck and change formulas when washing houses over on the deck side. (no bleach) I was going to ask how you didn't discolor your existing deck floor using bleach on the railings but if this is true I have my answer and some knowledge gained. Could you or someone briefly explain or cover this.

TSP is an alkaline that brings tannins to the surface of the wood - thus the wood darkens - you know this from putting caustic stippers on decks - the wood gets dark. Bleach doesn't sequester tannins like an oxalic acid - but it does whiten them. So when you throw a solution of TSP onto wood - it darkens the wood - and adding bleach counteracts this darkening. I've always used a bleach/tsp/metasilicate/surfactant mix that cleans wood right and because of the surfactant - doesn't allow bleach to attack the good wood. I always got a perfect looking natural wood afterwards. If you are paranoid about the damage of bleach to wood - you can always throw on ascorbic acid afterwards - it dechlorinates the bleach. But I have never seen any problems. I have stains on covered front porches that are over 3 years old now - that still look 90% of brand new - and didn't pay more than $21/gallon. Now I pay $40 + shipping - and I have these issues!

[MudDuck 20]

Thanks for the info but I'm still alittle confused. Funny timing though I did a bid today on a 12x50 and an 8x15 deck today that was built in Nov 06 and stained with Sherwin W Deckscapes (water based) in June 07 and has not only failed but mold seems to be all over it coming from deep within the wood in places not "on" it. He got the lumber from one of the local lumber yards and I'm suspecting it may have been infected when he put it down and stained it with the SWD water based product. He has now bought 8 gal of SWD again but in an oil base this time and wants that used. In prep I'm thinking I'm going to have to bleach the crap out of it to try to kill the mold but I told him it may or may not work. My plan is to HD80 it fairly heavy then Citrolic then bleach wash it to try to kill the mold within the wood. Will Adding TSP to the bleach wash soaking stop it from whitening up too much. I'm afraid the final look is going to come out too light due to the base color is too light.

[plainpainter 217]

Throw bleach and TSP and a good amount of surfactant - and lay it on good before you do anything else - and I think you will be surprised with the results. Then do your HD-80 and citralic steps.

[YVPW 20]

Just about anytime you're stripping an old stain that someone else applied a bleach step should follow the strip, because more than likely especially if a homeowner did the staining they didn't clean the wood properly before they did the initial staining so they stained over mildew. You will just have to take a look at the wood after the stripping process to see. The strippers don't do a good job of removing that mildew. Always use your citralic for the last step. Good Luck.

For unsealed wood over the past few years I've decided nothing cleans the wood like the BDA formula. I'm sure Jim will 2nd that. I especially love the BDA formula flowing through an X-Jet.

As for a parrafin stain and mildew. I know with Baker's I've never had a mildew problem. I just recently looked at a deck that I did almost a year and a half ago with Baker's Gold Blend, it still looks good. Plenty of pigment left on it. Before I sold my house I had Ready Seal on my new PT deck after about 6 months it would cover with surface mildew which makes the whole deck look black. Surface mildew looks different than what you posted. What caused it was since Ready Seal is non-drying and doesn't leave the surface as dry as Baker's(although Baker's is non-drying also, but has more MS in it) is dirt, pollen and everything else sticks to the surface. Well then mildew has what it needs to grow. And then again I could have overapplied the Ready Seal who knows? I know the surface wasn't wet or shiny. But on a Ready Seal house that I did there wasn't that problem. It still looks good over 3 years since I did it. I talked to a lady that owns a company that makes a non-drying log home finish and I told her this same problem and she said add M-1 mildewcide, and it will help. She said it will stay at the surface and prevent this from happening. Maybe someone else here can chime in on that.

[plainpainter 217]

I believe the m-1 mildewcide would help - but I was under the impression the manufacturers were doing this step for us! Why else pay good money for a product that you now have to tweak with additives? my timberoil railing is dry dry dry - even though it's a parafinnic product it isn't sticky on the surface. As to the comments about the 'rogue' mildew during wet summers. I installed fence pickets last november - and watched this mildew proliferate all winter long on these bare wood pickets. That mildew don't need moisture! I watched it grow like gangbusters from Nov-Feb during a cold/dry/new england winter! We need a manufactuer to fess up the reason mildew grows on their stain is because they don't put the mildewcides needed!

[YVPW 20]

Dan, I really don't understand what has happened to your deck. Nothing makes sense. Try some tests with that board. Use a stronger bleach mixture 2-3% hitting the surface and then stain do that on one section. Another section add the M-1 and see. Also spray a little bleach on the stained board and see if the black spots come off. If all of those steps fail then I would definitely have to conclude it's the stain.

I use 15% SH and I have it hit the surface at a rate of between 4 and 5 to 1. This is on older unsealed wood. On newer wood I would normally cut that dilution in half. I use some different soaps mixed in with it, sometimes a little HD-80, a little F-13 a little of this and that, lol. One thing I do know is it works!

Edited November 12, 2008 by YVPW

[RPetry 564]

Stopped by to look at 3 mahogany and 2 cedar RS jobs done both this year and last in one neighborhood. Found no sign of the "spot" mold.

On the way home, looked at a cedar Armstrong-Clark we did this summer. Again, no evidence of a problem. And this deck has T&G vertical skirting directly into the ground.

[plainpainter 217]

Rick - as far as I am concerned, the reason you didn't find any of the 'spot' mildew is because those are quality products. I am done done done with a certain manufacturer. Enough excuses - the products don't perform. Now I have to find a solution to resurrect my deck work this year and last. God help me.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

At this point, I am not sure. First, our "spot" mold/mildew happened on a new, PT deck. And only in the one shaded area. It was the only new PT we have done in about 3 yrs., so I have nothing to compare with RS or AC.

I have not gotten back to the, Jim's term, "blackendecker" mahogany job. It does not look good but a spot test with bleach should reveal more.