Should pressure washing companies be licensed???

[Henry Bockman 14]

I'd like to run a poll and get as many people as possible to vote.

Think about it for a minute, we work with pretty extreme pressure, temperatures, and some pretty nasty chemicals to do our jobs.

Take into consideration that some deck strippers are rated at 13 on the Ph scale.

Some of the acids we use are rated at 1 or 2 on the Ph scale.

Think about the amount of damage that 4,000 PSI can cause in inexperienced hands to wood, siding and concrete.

Should'nt there be some type of protection for consumers against these extremes?

I honestly believe that pressure washing should have it's own government codes (Cage ect) We have those now!

We should have our own insurance codes. We have those now I heard!

Wouldn't the next logical step to make pressure washing a recognized industry be some type of licensing requirements? This will also help to seperate us from companies that are working for extra cash on weekends, and to help raise the bar and protect consumers.

I vote yes, pressure washing companies should be licensed.

[tonyshelton 112]

Tony some of your points are good ones but the one above is just crazy. For one thing a doctor can lose his license for some bad things that he has done so now he is unlicensed you would send your kid there?? Of it the guy was never licensed you would still send your kid there?? Thats crazy and even though your trying to make a point that statement is just way out there.

Hey lets take that ones step further. Why make it where people don't need a license to drive. Now with that you can have 11 yr olds driving down the street cause they don't need a license. Make your points but keep out the ones that are way out there like that doctor one. If you want a doctor like that then go to a third world nation and let those doctors work on your kids if they need help....NOT!!!

John, I'm not talking about taking my kid to a doctor who has "LOST" his license. I'm talking about the fact that a doctor doesn't NEED a license to be a good doctor. Our dog is facing a $2,300 surgery right now. It will be cheaper for us to FLY him to Minnesota (where there is a retired Vet we know) who will do the surgery for around $300.00 than to go across the street from our house to the LICENSED vet. Is THAT CRAZY John?

Shelly has had beautiful white teeth her entire life. One of the problems with naturally white teeth is that they are brittle (lacking in something that keeps them strong). We have saved over $11,000 going to Mexico having her teeth worked on. We try to make it an annual trip. Is the dentist licensed? Who knows???? Who cares??? He does a great job and she says he's far better at pain reduction than any dentist she's ever been to. Now we don't have to carry ANY dental insurance, we pay cash for all the work and pay a LOT less then the DEDUCTIBLE we used to pay on the insurance. IS THAT CRAZY John?

I wish my Dad were here to tell you all about licensed doctors. About two years before he died he went to the emergency room in Columbia, TN with pain in his lower back and side. That set off a chain of ridiculous "tests". One after another, month after month, traveling back and forth to Nashville for testing. He saw about 6 doctors. They treated him for all kinds of things. Most of them spent no more than 3 minutes with him after he had spent hours driving and sometimes all day waiting for an appointment. 6 weeks before he died he got a call from the very first hospital he went to letting him know that there was something abnormal on his test from almost 2 years before. Within a day they told him he had advanced kidney cancer and he would have to start radiation treatment immediately, but by now it was probably too late. We were all called in and he said he's ready to go home to his Father. He was only 71. He died 6 weeks later.

Thank God for government oversight that guaranteed my dad about an hour of time with 6 doctors over a 2 year period.

What is the matter with all you people? I ask again - how did the human race survive for over 6,000 years without the oversight of the government to protect us as a species?

Would you like me to answer that question instead of continuing to ask it over and over again?

The fact is the WITHOUT GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE PEOPLE ARE GENERALLY DECENT AND CIVIL MINDED.

For example "Doctoring" is a dirty job. Most people don't have the stomach for it. Back years ago it was rare to find someone with the curiosity and the stomach to be a doctor. Fast forward to TODAY - Doctors are thought to be rich. Any parent with money can send their kid to college to be a doctor. Any person who only cares about becoming wealthy can pay their dues so they can get the big payout at the end of their schooling. Once they open up shop they realize that the government fees and red tape, insurance companies, attorneys and even the ADA constantly have their hands out taking more and more of the pie. Not only that, but insurance companies are only willing to pay pennies on the dollar for services. That is why some doctors are going to "cash only". (It takes at least 3 clerical staff on average to service the paperwork for one doctor at a doctor's office - this is not conjecture - I used to be in the business. I wrote, installed and trained on medical billing systems in 7 states) The end result of this is now doctors have become bitter and couldn't give a flying crap about their patients. That is why they have the gall to spend 3 minutes talking to a patient who's driven who knows how far and waited all day along with 50 other people in the waiting room.

When Fayth was born she went into labor at around 5pm. She was ready to deliver at around 10pm. They gave her (along with the 6 other future mothers in the delivery ward that night) sedatives and kept them in a state of waiting till 6am. At six am the doctor came in and delivered all 6 babies. I don't know how much the others paid, but we paid cash and the doctor's delivery fee alone was over $6,000. All the babies were delivered in less than an hour. We heard the doctor talking on his phone telling someone he would be all done by 8am and then he's off for the rest of the week. This was Shelly's primary OBGYN for the pregnancy. Prior to the birth she had seen his "assistants" at his clinic about 6 times for a few minutes each. She never had the "privilege" of meeting the doctor except through the mask at delivery and even then he didn't even announce who he was.

6 births in an hour. $36,000. (most of which went to insurance payments and the government) And for what? For assisting in a birth. For something that maids and midwives have done throughout the centuries. WHAT? Babies came into this world and the human race survived without a licensed doctor?????? How could that be????

Once licensing was required the young potential doctors see themselves as an elite group who have "paid their dues". This new batch of modern doctors have entered the field for money only rather then to give and help others. Once they realize how much of the money they have to "share" - they become bitter and despise the 3 minutes they have to spend with a patient.

I realize all doctors aren't like this. Some of my good friends are doctors. MOST of what I just told you have come from THEIR OWN MOUTHS.

NOW, on the to the driver's license issue.

John, there were a lot of cars on the road between 1900 and 1954. Why didn't South Dakota collapse under the burden of the all 11 year olds creating mayhem on the streets. South Dakota didn't even institute driver's licenses till 1954. Having lived in South Dakota, I can tell you there are plenty of 11 yr old farm kids who can drive circles around your "trained" NY police officers. The difference is the 11 year old farm kid's livelihood DEPENDS on their being responsible with their parent's property. The idea that a drivers license somehow "weeds out" bad drivers is a fallacy and has no basis in fact.

I am against licensing drivers. I can't do anything about it, because the fallacy that licensing somehow "protects" us is too deeply ingrained in the public's conscience. Even yours John.

Edited March 30, 2010 by tonyshelton

[John T 744]

Tony I have to say you are a good debater. You make alot of fair points and alot of them cannot be disputed. Yes I'm sure somewhere there are Doctors that practice without a license and they may better then most Doctors that have a License. My father who was in a very bad motorcycle when I was a kid out Dirt Biking with him when he fell and broke all his ribs, Collar bones and punctured his lungs....and all my father could do was lay there and try to laugh thru the pain cause he was in shock. Long story short My Dad was brought into Smithtown General Hospital and his Doctor gave him all the morphine he wanted. My father was doped up all thru-out until he was just about healed. He loved it and thought the world of his Doctor there....As it turns out a few months later that Guy was locked up for impersonating a Doctor who never went to school or anything. Many sued, my Father would not. Best Doctor he ever had so he would not sue because He was Happy(Real Happy when he was doped up..lol).

That is a rare story. As for me I would be livid if I ever found out my Girls were operated on by a Doctor who had no license no matter the results.

Also I would always rather have a Licensed Driver operate any of my vehicles then an Unlicensed one at all times. Unlicensed drivers do not belong on the road period. The risk is to great to allow that even if its a medical emergency and the kid is trying to save his mothers life. The risk is way to high that he could hurt others if he drives.

Call it what you want but in alot of cases certain professions and certain rights I am a big believer in Licensing and there are many reasons for that.

I am also a big believer that a child should go to college and earn there degree which is where I am going to send my girls when they graduate. Now if you want to talk the insane amount of money it cost for a kid these days to get there degree I would be all for that because I think that is unfair to them......but that is another story.

[Scott Stone 604]

Tony, you are absolutely right. Licensing does not provide even a small bit of protection. It also does not mean that one person, or another is more qualified to do a particular task. It does offer a source of recourse, since the licensing agency should have names, addresses, etc on file. They even require a bond in Arizona for contractors that, if a customer decides that a project was not completed as expected, and after a protest to the licensing agency, they can use to correct what ever was done poorly. You will note that it is not just one person deciding what is correct or not.

That is why I am not opposed to licensing. It galls me that a landscaper can go out and bid $25 a piece to wash down fuel islands, because they have no clue what they are doing, other than spraying water.

[tonyshelton 112]

John, you and I are on opposite ends of the political spectrum.

I understand your beliefs, I just don't think you are right and you don't think I'm right. There's nothing wrong with that. All people are different. I'm a believer in logic. I believe the founding fathers set up our national form of government as a means of guaranteeing interstate trade and commerce, protection of our borders, and as the ultimate authority in the guaranty of our rights as citizens. Beyond that, almost everything else lies in the hands of the States, which can pretty much do what they please.

I believe that in this Christian era wherein we live, that most people are decent. I don't drive drunk. Not because it is against the law, but because it is against my morals. The vast majority do the right thing.

The problem is that the government has taken over the role of "moral" policeman using it's own set of morals that have nothing to do with morals passed down from God i.e. laws against driving without wearing a seatbelt, etc.

If we were to simply get back to the simple civil laws given to the Israelites we would be better off as a society.

For example we could do away with a lot of superfluous laws if we simply had a law and punishment against stealing. It would be up to a judge or jury to decide the severity and penalty for stealing. There would be no "petty theft", "grand theft", "auto theft" and on and on. You either stole or you didn't. There wouldn't be any of those slimy prosecutor tricks like piling up multiple "counts" on top of each other for the same offense just to guarantee a conviction. And as an added benefit there would be no "getting off on a technicality".

Back on the old days when God's law was being followed one didn't need a lawyer. The law was so simple all you had to do was show up and let the judge make the decision. If you were guilty, you probably were punished.

The founding fathers had the right idea. Keep it SIMPLE. Which is what they did. How many thousands of pages is the health bill? How many pages is the constitution?

PS> can you guys tell we are working Sunday so I have the day off today?

[tonyshelton 112]

I rambled on and forgot to address the initial point of being a believer in logic.

I believe the founding fathers intended us to be a free people. That means free to make our own stupid decisions in regards to civil law. If that is the case, we should be able to practice whatever we wish and either survive or fail on the free market. That goes for doctors, lawyers, accountants, and even pressure washers. If we are going to limit one group we should logically make it against the law to do any kind of work without being licensed. On the other hand, if one group can work without a license, then all professions should be allowed that freedom. It was like that for thousands of years and we survived.

[James 625]

Testing , Licensing, Standards, and Regulations all of these evolve out of serious public problems and outcry . Or as an industry becomes larger and grows with innovation the public needs to be protected. Other areas of Licensing and over sight are Aviation and Food distribution and handling, And anything to do with the touching of the human body needs a license . Food handling was a huge problem in the early 1900's ! What about water? Every river in the East was polluted from manufacturing and the land which the manufacturing took place is a Brown field ?

[tonyshelton 112]

Testing , Licensing, Standards, and Regulations all of these evolve out of serious public problems and outcry . Or as an industry becomes larger and grows with innovation the public needs to be protected. Other areas of Licensing and over sight are Aviation and Food distribution and handling, And anything to do with the touching of the human body needs a license . Food handling was a huge problem in the early 1900's ! What about water? Every river in the East was polluted from manufacturing and the land which the manufacturing took place is a Brown field ?

Those are good points James. But these are not the responsibility of the Federal Government to regulate. It falls in the hands of the states. (with the exception of the airlines and interstate food handling- which falls under interstate commerce) If a state wants to regulate these INTRASTATE businesses, it's up to the will of the people who live in those states. If I live in a state where physicians are not required to be licensed and I don't agree with that, I have all the right in the world to pack up my stuff and move to one that does. That is the beauty and wisdom of the founding fathers.

Why must I chose a licensed physician? Why do I have to order antibiotics from Mexico for $10? The reason I must do this is because I otherwise am required by law to pay a doctor $150.00 to see me for 15 seconds and write a prescription for a $50.00 bottle of antibiotics. Why? It's my own d*mn business what I want to do with my own body.

The water issue is also a state issue. The clean water act originally was limited to "navigable waters of the United States". That meant waters the CONNECTED states in relation to interstate commerce. Thus the "navigable" part. It didn't mean local PONDS, LAKES, etc which fall under the responsibility of the several STATES. Under our constitution it would be up to each state to take care of it's own laundry. That allows the LOCALS to force the outcry and put it up before the LOCAL people to decide, not a decision from a thousand miles away from someone who may or may not be influenced by lobbyists. See the beauty of it?

Where's the logic in allowing me to skydive, but not allowing me to have a broken arm set by an unlicensed physician?

Where's the logic in giving out motorcycle licenses while at the same time requiring SEATBELTS in a car where I'm surrounded by AIRBAGS!!! It's lunacy run amok.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Those are good points James. But these are not the responsibility of the Federal Government to regulate. It falls in the hands of the states. (with the exception of the airlines and interstate food handling- which falls under interstate commerce) If a state wants to regulate these INTRASTATE businesses, it's up to the will of the people who live in those states. If I live in a state where physicians are not required to be licensed and I don't agree with that, I have all the right in the world to pack up my stuff and move to one that does. That is the beauty and wisdom of the founding fathers.

Why must I chose a licensed physician? Why do I have to order antibiotics from Mexico for $10? The reason I must do this is because I otherwise am required by law to pay a doctor $150.00 to see me for 15 seconds and write a prescription for a $50.00 bottle of antibiotics. Why? It's my own d*mn business what I want to do with my own body.

The water issue is also a state issue. The clean water act originally was limited to "navigable waters of the United States". That meant waters the CONNECTED states in relation to interstate commerce. Thus the "navigable" part. It didn't mean local PONDS, LAKES, etc which fall under the responsibility of the several STATES. Under our constitution it would be up to each state to take care of it's own laundry. That allows the LOCALS to force the outcry and put it up before the LOCAL people to decide, not a decision from a thousand miles away from someone who may or may not be influenced by lobbyists. See the beauty of it?

Where's the logic in allowing me to skydive, but not allowing me to have a broken arm set by an unlicensed physician?

Where's the logic in giving out motorcycle licenses while at the same time requiring SEATBELTS in a car where I'm surrounded by AIRBAGS!!! It's lunacy run amok.

I suppose you would feed your kid baby formula made in china with melamine in it too...

Beth

[tonyshelton 112]

I suppose you would feed your kid baby formula made in china with melamine in it too...

Beth

She's too old for that now. But guess what:

I guess it's time to go to jail for child endangerment! :D

By the way, foreign trade is within the regulatory rights of the federal government. I'm all for regulating it.

Edited March 30, 2010 by tonyshelton
added last sentence

[John T 744]

It's my own d*mn business what I want to do with my own body.

Where's the logic in allowing me to skydive, but not allowing me to have a broken arm set by an unlicensed physician?

Where's the logic in giving out motorcycle licenses while at the same time requiring SEATBELTS in a car where I'm surrounded by AIRBAGS!!! It's lunacy run amok.

Hey Tony I just took out a couple of your quotes to comment on them. If you do serious harm to your body in some cases such as self mutilation where your cutting yourself and The cops are notified you most likely will be put into the psych ward so you can be evaluated. If you attempt suicide and you succeed you therefore killed your body and that is a violation of your religious rights. According to Christian faith you do not have the right to commit suicide because its a sin.

The seatbelt remark is two fold. It saves Lives first and foremost and it also limits the severity of a potential injury which will cost the tax payers if the injury is bad enough....

I never let my kids go in a car and not be seat belted and I would hope that you do the same. I've dealt with accidents and seen people die and its terrible when someone says after they see the ejected dead kid "If only they had there seatbelt on because the car doesn't even look that banged up". Motorcycles are different so different things have a set of different rules at times such as a seatbelt law.

I think you put to much into what you believe in and you take some of the logic right out of it. Example is above. Logic states that Seatbelts save lives...so logically it would be wise to buckle up and its also the law because it saves lives.

Also since you speak about your Christianity where does logic fall into that?? I would label that as Faith that defies logic.....(Ah oh that may be a fire storm that I just said:) )

[James 625]

You can't get a License's for Human Nature or Common Sense. When both are pushed beyond limits, Rules and Regulations are formed .

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

This thread is way beyond licensing. But you know, it's not half bad....

Beth

[tonyshelton 112]

Hey Tony I just took out a couple of your quotes to comment on them. If you do serious harm to your body in some cases such as self mutilation where your cutting yourself and The cops are notified you most likely will be put into the psych ward so you can be evaluated. If you attempt suicide and you succeed you therefore killed your body and that is a violation of your religious rights. According to Christian faith you do not have the right to commit suicide because its a sin.

The seatbelt remark is two fold. It saves Lives first and foremost and it also limits the severity of a potential injury which will cost the tax payers if the injury is bad enough....

I never let my kids go in a car and not be seat belted and I would hope that you do the same. I've dealt with accidents and seen people die and its terrible when someone says after they see the ejected dead kid "If only they had there seatbelt on because the car doesn't even look that banged up". Motorcycles are different so different things have a set of different rules at times such as a seatbelt law.

I think you put to much into what you believe in and you take some of the logic right out of it. Example is above. Logic states that Seatbelts save lives...so logically it would be wise to buckle up and its also the law because it saves lives.

Also since you speak about your Christianity where does logic fall into that?? I would label that as Faith that defies logic.....(Ah oh that may be a fire storm that I just said:) )

John, you must be taking the same allergy medicine I am because our minds are thinking alike right now. I ALMOST posted a CAVEAT to the logic post and exempted FAITH from logic because I know Faith is a jump from logic based on logical clues. If there was proof, there would be no room for faith!

On another note, I can see what I've been saying looks contradictory. It's not. I'll answer your questions if you will consider mine:

1) Knowing there was an aids epidemic and KNOWING that unprotected homosexual activity was the leading cause of spread of this disease why weren't laws passed to stop this "self-mutilation" that eventually became slow suicide for hundreds of thousands?

Not only were they harming themselves, but they were spreading disease to others. Why weren't the cops notified so these people could be locked up to keep them from harming themselves and others? (Because it's not politically expedient now)

Putting on a seatbelt can only save ONE person. Outlawing behavior that has been proven to spread disease could have saved thousands. Why is one the business of the government when the other is not?

2) How are motorcycles different? I hit a curb at 55 mph before on a bike. I can assure you that you can be ejected from a bike just like you can from a car. My best friend was in intensive care for almost a month and was thrown over 150 feet from a motorcycle. Why aren't there laws to protect us from the stupidity of getting on a two wheeled killing machine? (because it's not politically expedient now)

3) How can bad injuries cost the taxpayers money? I thought we just passed a massive bill because those poor people without insurance were NOT getting treatment. Maybe we were misinformed??????

4) Maybe suicide is a sin. But so is gluttony and lying. That's where grace comes in. God knows our hearts and he will be our judge. Not me, not you, not the church, but he alone will judge those who committed suicide. Apparently Samson, who committed suicide, was considered high enough to be listed as one of the great fathers of faith in Hebrews 11. It's just not for us to judge.

5) Lastly, John, did you wear your seatbelt as a child? People die. It happens everyday. It's the price you pay for living. I don't plan on giving up living just to run away from the possibility of death. (As a matter of fact I welcome death. I'm ready at any time. Why would I run when I get the call to come home? If you don't believe this call my wife and ask. We've already made arrangements a long time ago.)

John, your points are the same talking points the politicians give the masses to please the groups that will be voting for them. Take those points to their logical conclusions - Why stop at "If only they had their seatbelt on" why not "If only they had been walking instead of riding in that car" (which is what Gore would like) or "if only they had stayed in their home they wouldn't have died" etc, etc.

[tonyshelton 112]

I just want to thank you guys for indulging me today as I take a break from the reality of work.

I know we all have different views, I'm just trying to explain how my views, radical as they may be, come from a study of human history and the mistakes we, as a human race, have made in the past.

Am I right? I think so. But that doesn't really mean squat now does it? :sunshine:

Thanks again.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

If that is the case, we should be able to practice whatever we wish and either survive or fail on the free market. That goes for doctors, lawyers, accountants, and even pressure washers. If we are going to limit one group we should logically make it against the law to do any kind of work without being licensed. On the other hand, if one group can work without a license, then all professions should be allowed that freedom. It was like that for thousands of years and we survived.

Oh boy, you let em pull you in again didn't you?!?!?

I like a spirited debate as much as the next person, but man, this one was whack!

Sorry, but I can't let this one go without a response.

Anarchy eh? Are you serious? I would prefer to encourage you to give that one some serious thought cause what you are proposing is not what the founding fathers had in mind. Otherwise, they would not have established a form of government to help protect the civil liberties that your solution would jeopardize.

Free market, let me take a poke at that one as well. Ever buy Chinese drugs? This is but one major example I can postulate for anyone who is seriously considering that a free market is a good idea. Without the licensing and the laws that precede it to give it a basis for existing, this society would not exist in the form we all know and enjoy today.

Sorry, but a free market without regulation means without responsibility or accountability and don't try to tell me it doesn't.

Communistic market systems don't work and it is why Russia and other communist countries have failed economically and are so poor not to mention unworthy of the world market for trade.

Many endure criminal conduct and poor quality products without any government interference.

I thought communism was not a welcome idea here in the US!?!?

Rod!~

[offduty 25]

Rod, I love you but I can not understand how your mind works. Surely you wrote the above in jest. I am beginning to think I am the only sane one around here. Scary, but I think I see Tony in the mirror sometimes. I think liberalism must abound up north. Think how much better life would be without gov't regulations and interference. I dare say there are a few among us that think the ACLU and ACORN are great things.

Edited March 31, 2010 by offduty

[John T 744]

Rod that makes alot of sense. Your a smart dude that has a way of making a point that is somewhat Intellectual in stature. Basically it looks to me that guys like Tony and William Page who I know from people who know them are good spirited and nice guys but from reading what they believe in...yup we will have to agree to disagree. It looks like they would be happy if there was a lawless society where we each fend for ourselves and the Gov't and the cops etc. should be taken out of the picture so they can make all the decisions on there own without repercussions from an outside source such as the Gov't(Feds) or any type of law enforcement. Eliminate all licensing, Eliminate all taxes, Eliminate all the rules and just live life. Thats nice but if that was the case the criminal element would run amok and you would have no defense system to really defend yourselves and your families. The Mob and the Gangs would run your towns and there way of passing down judgment would not be pretty and you would have no way out because of there brutality.

I think the USA system is the best in the land. We have the most rights and freedoms in organized countries. Our Kids are the safest here and our chance to make a good honest living is probably just about the best here then most other places on Earth. Its not a perfect system but at most times it works. You just can't please everyone all the time and in this case Tony and William would be the first two guys that I suspect in Powerwashing land who are the most unhappiest with this country and the way they do things. Regulation in the modern world is a necessity because it saves lives. The way we live for thousands of years as Tony says means very little today. The times are different and that is how we as a human race have advanced along the way. Hopefully with all the discord our race has though we just don't end it all with mass destruction. That is my biggest fear and since Earth will never be like a heaven where everyone is happy something is bound to give.....I just hope not in my lifetime or my kids, grandkids etc etc etc.

Believe in what you may but take care of your kids and your family to the best of your ability and teach them what is right and what is wrong without debating every little issue. Buckle up......

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rod, I love you but I can not understand how your mind works. Surely you wrote the above in jest. I am beginning to think I am the only sane one around here. Scary, but I think I see Tony in the mirror sometimes. I think liberalism must abound up north. Think how much better life would be without gov't regulations and interference. I dare say there are a few among us that think the ACLU and ACORN are great things.

This Liberal/Conservative labeling thing is just a cloud in the way of true logic and only serves to polarize and divide.

Let's put this into perspective shall we?

The founding fathers of our nation were liberal! The act of breaking away from years of rule is a liberal motion. The act of establishing a different form of government for the people, by the people and of the people instead of being ruled by a king or queen is a liberal action.

This is a liberal country by creation and by the way the legislative bodies have been set up in order to enact new laws, change old ones or repeal them completely is a liberal form.

Conservatism sticks to the old ways and does not want change. Heck, we changed a bit doncha think?

So please spare me and others the divisive labeling and leave the politics to those we can vote out of office if they don't do their job.

I respect you guys as well but sometimes I don't think you really think things through when it comes to what we are discussing here.

When you call a person who stands up for the laws of this land a liberal as a slur, you are slapping the face of those who formed it and fought to defend it.

Btw, I would like to clarify one thing: I am not a liberal nor am I a conservative... I am an American.

Rod!~

Edited March 31, 2010 by Beth n Rod

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

....and again the Gentle Lady from Maryland says...this is a licensing thread...perhaps we need a political thread....

Beth :cup: :sunshine:

[tonyshelton 112]

This Liberal/Conservative labeling thing is just a cloud in the way of true logic and only serves to polarize and divide.

Let's put this into perspective shall we?

The founding fathers of our nation were liberal! The act of breaking away from years of rule is a liberal motion. The act of establishing a different form of government for the people, by the people and of the people instead of being ruled by a king or queen is a liberal action.

YES! I would have definately been a liberal then too!

This is a liberal country by creation and by the way the legislative bodies have been set up in order to enact new laws, change old ones or repeal them completely is a liberal form.

YES, in their wisdom the FF made a way of escape from knee-jerk laws. It was genius.

Conservatism sticks to the old ways and does not want change. Heck, we changed a bit doncha think?

If the old ways were right the wise thing to do would be to stick to them. If they were wrong (i.e. Roe v. Wade) then we need to be "liberal" and change them! I guess I'm a Conservative/Liberal. :groovy:

So please spare me and others the divisive labeling and leave the politics to those we can vote out of office if they don't do their job.

I agree with you. I'm liberal regarding changing bad/unnecessary/illegal laws but conservative regarding our constitutional rights (individual/state/and Federal - as separated by the constitution)

I respect you guys as well but sometimes I don't think you really think things through when it comes to what we are discussing here.

When you call a person who stands up for the laws of this land a liberal as a slur, you are slapping the face of those who formed it and fought to defend it.

Congress and the president (Bush) stood up and supported the war in Iraq and made it's implementation the "law of the land". I was a supporter of the "law of the land" in that case. What kind of slurs did "liberals" guys like me (supporters of the war) have to endure publicly? See, it goes both ways.

Btw, I would like to clarify one thing: I am not a liberal nor am I a conservative... I am an American.

Me too! But I have faith in our people, not our government. When the Hurricanes in LA happened we, as a people sent millions of dollars to rebuild. The government sent debit cards for dope, thousands of UNUSED trailers for housing and chaos.

The people create jobs by innovation and expansion on the open market. The government "creates" jobs by starting new government projects/ overseers/ agencies and pays for these new jobs out of the pockets of the people who have created jobs by innovation and expansion. How much longer can our form of government survive in this downward spiral?

Rod!~

Answers in red above Rod, I know we aren't going to agree and I know I'm not going to convince you to change your position. My response is only to clarify WHY I come to the conclusions I have.

We're not all going to agree. We don't have to be twins to be brothers!

[tonyshelton 112]

Rod, I love you but I can not understand how your mind works. Surely you wrote the above in jest. I am beginning to think I am the only sane one around here. Scary, but I think I see Tony in the mirror sometimes. I think liberalism must abound up north. Think how much better life would be without gov't regulations and interference. I dare say there are a few among us that think the ACLU and ACORN are great things.

You missed a spot shaving this morning.

[Jim Gamble 20]

You missed a spot shaving this morning.

I know Tony used to have a job that required his undo attention on Broadway in San Francisco for many years, and from what was told to me, he was quit good at it.... You and the off Duty Fireman, imagine that.... are you sure you two didn't work there as a team players together? As Tony said, You missed a spot saving this morning.... LOL LOL LOL LOL

Now thats funny

Edited March 31, 2010 by Jim Gamble

[tonyshelton 112]

And I didn't have to have a license for that job either Jim.:lgmoneyey

[Jim Gamble 20]

And I didn't have to have a license for that job either Jim.:lgmoneyey

Now thats even more funnier :banana:

Is funnier a word? Spell check says...... yes !

Edited March 31, 2010 by Jim Gamble

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

We're not all going to agree. We don't have to be twins to be brothers!

I know, lets just leave it at that.

Rod!~