UPDATED pictures of my deck

[mrmichaeljmoore 14]

Here is the original thread:

http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/diyers-ask-pros/16898-homeowner-attempt-clean-neutralize-before-staining-pics.html

Attached are current pictures.

Deck was stained on June 7, 2009.

Pictures were taken on August 9, 2009. Only 2 months!!!!

Location: Fairfield County, CT. (Very wet summer....lots and lots of rain...not sure how that affected the stain.)

As you can see, the stain (Penofin for Hardwoods) seems to be fading away.

-- The first picture is the finished deck from June 7.

-- The next two pictures give an overall view of the deck.

-- The last two pictures are areas (under the railing) where I was unable to scrub the deck with the DEFY cleaner or hit with the ROS. As you can see the stain is much darker there. The previous coatings (2 total) of Penofin didn't get stripped. Kinda gives you an idea of what the deck would look like if I didn't clean, brighten and sand.

So........there is a 2 month update.

What do you pros think? Did the stain last as long as it should? Any other thoughts?

My plan (hopefully if I get a free weekend with good weather) is to, before winter, clean the deck with a bleach/Dawn soap solution, let dry then apply another coat of Penofin for Hardwoods.

mm

[plainpainter 217]

According to Rick Petry - you are suppose to stain that thing like 3 times in the first year alone according to penofin directions.

If I was you - I'd clean that thing this weekend with a bleach/dawn solution and then do another coat of penofin. And then maybe again before winter. And then report back next spring how it looks.

[RPetry 564]

According to Rick Petry - you are suppose to stain that thing like 3 times in the first year alone according to penofin directions. ...

Daniel,

Not according to me. You obviously have access to the internet. Try a Google search and read for yourself.

Mike,

Penofin has a stringent, lockstep prep and initial maintenance schedule for hardwoods that is, IMO, ludicrous. Caveat emptor.

[PressurePros 249]

2 months?? Penofin is a joke.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Strip the deck, prep the deck, seal with Armstrong Clark or Defy.

No more Penofin unless you want a repeat performance, ditto that Cabots ATO. It's a PRODUCT failure.

Beth

[plainpainter 217]

I agree that the penofin is a joke - but it did look nice upon application. This guy has already stripped and sanded even - he already has the product. He should just finish this year out by giving that deck a quick wash on a friday afternoon - and stain it Saturday morning - be back to business by Sunday. Perhaps do it a 3rd time in October - and let him think about a product change next spring.

[plainpainter 217]

Daniel,

Not according to me. You obviously have access to the internet. Try a Google search and read for yourself.

Mike,

Penofin has a stringent, lockstep prep and initial maintenance schedule for hardwoods that is, IMO, ludicrous. Caveat emptor.

What I meant to say - is that you are the one that reported this procedure from their website.

[plainpainter 217]

Daniel,

Not according to me. You obviously have access to the internet. Try a Google search and read for yourself.

Trust me - I am much too lazy to bother - I trust you are reporting that accurately. And I have no intentions of ever bothering with that product.

Rick - you ever try TWP200 series stains? It's suppose to be an all paraffin product like readyseal. I have a customer deck that's so hot - that all my past oil based stains actually peel off the deck like dried up saran wrap. I think this is the one case where a 100% paraffin makes a ton of sense since the wood is bone bone dry in full southern exposure sun all day long. I've never seen oil based stains actually peel up from the wood before?

[RPetry 564]

8 months after application Penofin stain, failing on western red cedar. See pictures.

... Rick - you ever try TWP200 series stains? It's suppose to be an all paraffin product like readyseal. ...

Daniel,

Many years ago, wanted to try TWP 200 prior to making the switch to Ready Seal, but could not find any retailers in my area that carried the product.

I do not think it is 250 g/l VOC compliant now, so it would be impossible to buy it in the Northeast. Scott Paul would know more.

... I've never seen oil based stains actually peel up from the wood before?

I have seen some solid oil stains "peeling", but I think it may have been caused by poor wood prep and/or over application.

[plainpainter 217]

Rick TWP 200 is 94% solids and only 30-40g/l VOC - so it's extremely compliant.

My deck was only done with transparent/toner stains but tung oil based - and yes there was buildup since the client never paid for stripping - I think 5 coats in all by now. Two years ago - I washed it, coated all the horizontals and even the posts all for $700. Yesterday I finally counted up all the square footage and applied my price - came out to $2,450.

[RPetry 564]

Mike,

Although not a solution, maybe you can take solace in the fact that you are not alone with exterior wood stains and new ipe'.

Attached is a picture of failed Messmer's on ipe'. This picture was taken by the customer 2 weeks after the stain was applied.

We were contracted and stripped off this mess and sanded with 60 grit. Two separate oilings of Ready Seal medium red color. The 2nd pic was taken about 2 weeks after we finished work.

As it is new ipe' exposed to full sun, this deck will most likely need a quick cleaning and single RS application come next spring.

Edited August 13, 2009 by RPetry

[mrmichaeljmoore 14]

Strip the deck, prep the deck, seal with Armstrong Clark or Defy.

No more Penofin unless you want a repeat performance, ditto that Cabots ATO. It's a PRODUCT failure.

Beth

Beth --

I can get DEFY for Hardwoods locally. I may consider trying that.

Can't get Ready Seal or Armstrong Clark.

What is the application process for DEFY? What sort of "life expectancy" should I expect?

What about maintenance coats? Clean and reapply or will I have to clean/strip/neutralize/sand?

Any drawbacks/negatives to DEFY?

Thanks.

mm

[plainpainter 217]

Mike - do yourself a favor and just give it a bleach/dawn wash and reapply the same product. That ipe doesn't need a sealer to protect it - but just take the easy route - knowing that for next season you will dump that product. Penofin is a nightmare for contractors that have customers calling them back 2 months later wanting their deck restored for free. But how long will it take you to give a good rag applicaton of penofin, 30 minutes perhaps? And then let it go - any stain on ipe will need to be redone next year anyways. So plan for a better product next year. Now you have an idea what us contractors have to deal with all the time. But it's so late in the season now - what's the point of going through all the rigamarole of stripping it now? Wash it up and then reapply. And then let mother nature do the work for you to remove the product over the winter - so all you have to do is give it a bleach/TSP clean a little sanding - and then put a better product next spring.

[mrmichaeljmoore 14]

Mike - do yourself a favor and just give it a bleach/dawn wash and reapply the same product. That ipe doesn't need a sealer to protect it - but just take the easy route - knowing that for next season you will dump that product. Penofin is a nightmare for contractors that have customers calling them back 2 months later wanting their deck restored for free. But how long will it take you to give a good rag applicaton of penofin, 30 minutes perhaps? And then let it go - any stain on ipe will need to be redone next year anyways. So plan for a better product next year. Now you have an idea what us contractors have to deal with all the time. But it's so late in the season now - what's the point of going through all the rigamarole of stripping it now? Wash it up and then reapply. And then let mother nature do the work for you to remove the product over the winter - so all you have to do is give it a bleach/TSP clean a little sanding - and then put a better product next spring.

Yup...that is what I am gonna do. Clean and reapply. Now I just need a free weekend to do it. Probably wont get to it until after Labor Day. All my weekends are booked (by the boss.....er, ahem....wife).

I was asking Beth about Defy for next year. I will probably try it. I can get it locally, which is convenient. Hopefully it will perform better than the Penofin.

Just for sh*ts and giggles, I am gonna email Penofin the pictures and tell them that I am disappointed with the performance of their product.....just to see what they say.

I'll post their repsonse on the board, when I get it.

[James 625]

I 've seen plenty of decks that look great with Penofin.

[mrmichaeljmoore 14]

Rick --

I remember reading somewhere that you are not a big fan of Defy because it is a water-based stain?

Just curious, why not? What are the drawbacks to a water-based stain?

thanks.

mm

[RPetry 564]

Rick --

I remember reading somewhere that you are not a big fan of Defy because it is a water-based stain?

Just curious, why not? What are the drawbacks to a water-based stain?

thanks.

mm

Mike,

Historically, most water based exterior wood stains, ie: latex or acrylic, have been a nightmare to strip and/or maintain.

Apparently Defy for hardwoods, although water based, is not in that category. Scott Paul of the Sealer Store has used Defy with great success, both in longevity and keeping the wood maintained.

Attached are two pictures. In September of 2008, I started a stain test on a single board of my own ipe' deck. The first pic is immediately after application.

The second picture was taken a few minutes ago, 11 months after these stains were applied. The Defy sample is immediately "below" the water bowl. It has held its pigment better than the others, much better than I would have expected on ipe' that gets a lot of sun exposure.

Among the oils, Armstrong-Clark and Ready Seal tie for 2nd place.

[mrmichaeljmoore 14]

Mike,

Historically, most water based exterior wood stains, ie: latex or acrylic, have been a nightmare to strip and/or maintain.

Apparently Defy for hardwoods, although water based, is not in that category. Scott Paul of the Sealer Store has used Defy with great success, both in longevity and keeping the wood maintained.

Attached are two pictures. In September of 2008, I started a stain test on a single board of my own ipe' deck. The first pic is immediately after application.

The second picture was taken a few minutes ago, 11 months after these stains were applied. The Defy sample is immediately "below" the water bowl. It has held its pigment better than the others, much better than I would have expected on ipe' that gets a lot of sun exposure.

Among the oils, Armstrong-Clark and Ready Seal tie for 2nd place.

Thanks for the updated pics on the stain shoot-out............very interesting.

I think I will give the Defy a try next year.

Reading the label on the Defy, maintenance doesn't seem to bad.

Clean with mild detergent and water, then brighten to minimize darkeneing, then restain. Doens't seem too bad.

Unfortuantely, though, to remove the old Penofin, I guess I will have to strip, brighten and sand AGAIN next year.....ugh.

mm

[RPetry 564]

Thanks for the updated pics on the stain shoot-out............very interesting.

I think I will give the Defy a try next year.

Reading the label on the Defy, maintenance doesn't seem to bad.

Clean with mild detergent and water, then brighten to minimize darkeneing, then restain. Doens't seem too bad.

Unfortuantely, though, to remove the old Penofin, I guess I will have to strip, brighten and sand AGAIN next year.....ugh.

mm

Mike,

You are not going to relish my advice, but the following is what I would do.

Ideally, I would strip, brighten, and sand the ipe' now. Let the wood weather naturally over the winter. Next spring, clean with a 2% bleach, soap, and water mix. Lightly truck brush that cleaner into the ipe', and hose rinse off, no pressure or pressure washer. Apply oxalic acid to the wood at 6 oz. / gal. to brighten and "open" the ipe'. When dry, apply Defy, Armstrong-Clark, or Ready Seal.

There is no inherent need to stain ipe'. The wood is really bulletproof. You can let it age for years, without an ounce of stain.

The best thing I did for my own ipe' deck was just that, but for a full 12 month calendar year.

[mrmichaeljmoore 14]

Well, spring is back....and time to deal with my deck again.

At the end of last year, I had the Penofin stain failure.

Rick -- Unfortunately, I did not have the opportunity at the end of last year to do what you suggested in your last post.

Consequently, the deck has weathered (with Penofin still on it) over the winter and early spring.

I will post pics of the current state of the deck soon.

I do not think I am going to use Penofin this year. The one advantage to Penofin was that it was easy to apply. And never had any fear of lap marks. Just had to wipe the deck after 20 minutes of drying. Too bad it didnt last too long.

My questions are:

Based on Rick's Ipe stain shoot out, I think I may use the Defy for Hardwoods. I can get it locally, too.

But, how easy is it to apply? I am leery of lap marks.....

Also, which color do you suggest? Natural Pine, Cedar Tone or Light Walnut?

Finally, maintenance staining is merely, cleaning and brightening, then reapply stain, right?

Now, as far as getting the deck ready for staining......

I have Restore-a-Deck. Can I use that to prep the deck? Or should I just sand it down to fresh wood without using any chemicals?

I usually end up sanding it anyway....so sanding is not a big deal.

As always, thanks for the help.

Like I said, I will post pictures as soon as possible.

mike

Mike,

You are not going to relish my advice, but the following is what I would do.

Ideally, I would strip, brighten, and sand the ipe' now. Let the wood weather naturally over the winter. Next spring, clean with a 2% bleach, soap, and water mix. Lightly truck brush that cleaner into the ipe', and hose rinse off, no pressure or pressure washer. Apply oxalic acid to the wood at 6 oz. / gal. to brighten and "open" the ipe'. When dry, apply Defy, Armstrong-Clark, or Ready Seal.

There is no inherent need to stain ipe'. The wood is really bulletproof. You can let it age for years, without an ounce of stain.

The best thing I did for my own ipe' deck was just that, but for a full 12 month calendar year.

[RPetry 564]

Mike,

I would strip the remaining Penofin off with a relatively diluted sodium hydroxide (NaOH) wood stripper. Brighten with oxalic at 6 oz./gal. and rinse well. Let dry and lightly sand with 60 grit and a random orbital.

In March, I applied Defy for Hardwoods to my complete ipe' deck. There is a thread on this at another web site. Go to: Ipe' stain - TheWoodPros.com Forum

AFAIK, the thread should be open to the public without registering.

[mrmichaeljmoore 14]

Attached are current pictures of the deck.

[mrmichaeljmoore 14]

Update on my IPE deck.......

I emailed Penofin a few months back regarding my displeasure with the performance of the Penofin for Hardwoods stain.

In response, they sent me a container of Penofin Pro cleaner (sodium percarbonate powder), Penofin Pro brightener (oxalic acid) and a can of Penofin for Hardwoods stain.

They told me to follow the instructions on the labels of the containers.....thanks for the help, Penofin.

But based on a recent thread in the Pros section regarding ipe stain longevity being tied to weathering, I think I will give that a try this year. Also, my weekends are pretty much booked...so even if I wanted to stain the deck, I don't think I would be able to....

So, last weekend, I cleaned the deck with the Penofin sodium percarbonate cleaner. The deck is not completely void of Penofin stain....you can still see some dark spots there, which I assume is old stain. (If I get a chance, I will post a picture).

I am gonna let it weather until Spring 2011, then clean, brighten (maybe sand) then stain.

So, that will give it 2 years since last Penofin stain application in June 2009.

Not sure which stain I will use....I'll follow the pro board this season and see how the trends go.

One quick question though.....

Assuming the stain lasts longer, how will maintenance be? For instance, if I stain the deck in Spring 2011, and let's say the stain lasts 2 seasons until Spring 2013, will I have to let the deck weather for another year or so to gain the same longevity?

So, will the cycle be: let deck weather for a year or so, prep and stain deck, enjoy deck until stain fails, let it weather for a year or more, then prep and stain, etc....

thanks.

And if you all are still interested, I will keep you posted.

mm

[Celeste 341]

Ipe is an annual thing - you're not going to get two seasons.

[James 625]

You bought a wood that can not except a sealer. Trying to make a sealer last longer than a year or putting a sealer on the will stick longer than a year causes more problems. Your dissatisfaction with Penofin was not the sealers fault.