Sic' it to some Sikkens (Removing Cetol Dek)

[bigchaz 157]

Did a deck today that was stained with 3 coats of Sikkens Cetol Dek. Starting to peel as it hadn't been done in 3 years. The homeowner had bad experience with the last application and I was able to sell on penetrating product without the shine and film of the Sikkens. Not to mention the application instructions for Sikkens are just not practical IMO...must be dry for 72 hours after staining...I dont think that has EVER happened in North Carolina!

Thanks to those who helped out with advice on this job, you know who you are. We took orbital sanders with 40 grit paper to the railings to scuff up the finish and take off the shine (20 minutes). Then loaded it full strength stripper (Timber Strip Pro) with Alka-Foam and 633AD booster from ACR products. Also added some Potassium Hydroxide flakes to heat it up even more. The alka-foam is awesome by the way...great cling.

Dwell time of about 45-50 minutes, spraying the deck about 3 times to keep everything wet and used about 55 total gallons of stripper. The top coats on the Sikkens melt off almost immediately as they have no adhesion to anything but the previous coating. It was slippery almost immediately. Its that base coat that takes the most time it seems. Temperature was around 85 today, deck was in partial sun.

After scratch test and another final spray of stripper we washed it down and came off very nicely. Boosted stripper like that usually reeks havoc on painted siding but no issue there (just some door trim which we will repaint). Wood gets super black so needs a good strong acid to neutralize.

Pictures are only during the stripping process and after final rinse down (dont have any before shots).

Edited August 31, 2011 by bigchaz

[RPetry 564]

But it still doesn't excuse the publicity and the ramifications on innocent parties ---

Celeste,

From one of my earlier posts in this thread.

... All that being said, these boards can serve as a "early warning" system to contractors and homeowners. Many remember a countrywide, instead of regional, drying issue with a popular "contractor grade" wood stain. In that case, a public outcry was justified. Working together, contractors found a possible solution and moved on. I don't know if the manufacturer did. ...

This was a reference to ESI's former WoodTux problem.

[Celeste 341]

And if you can find my "respectful" threads on AC - Charlie is 20 miles from us. We're under the same rainclouds we're so close. We get polar opposite results with the stain and have never even had failed product replaced or offered to be replaced. The public outcry and bashing hurt OUR company, period. We have never had the issues anyone else did with ESI products but heaven forbid we post good results of our established work with "that" stain. I'm just sayin'.

NOW, BETH said back to the topic. Hope no public people can see this and start it all over again.

[RPetry 564]

... - Charlie is 20 miles from us. We're under the same rainclouds we're so close. We get polar opposite results with the stain and have never even had failed product replaced or offered to be replaced. ...

Celeste,

Maybe a preparation difference? Do you guys use a moisture meter?

I thought Jim and I were strange, being only maybe 130 miles apart. But Charlie being in your own back yard, ie: 20 miles, that is very weird and even spooky.

[plainpainter 217]

Just got a call today from an unhappy customer whose fir deck I restored 3 months ago and a few days - says the floor is all black with little color left - oh, joy. And I already was adding extra spirits, one bottle of M-1 mildewcide to each gallon after adding spirits, and extra jap drier to make sure the surface dried/cured faster. Will be trekking over to take pics as soon as the sun comes back out. This is like becoming a bad joke. What was the O/P again?

[RSuds 24]

My main problem I ever had with staining was with sikkens. We started doing a lot of them 12-13 years ago. Then when we went back to recoat them it was great on most pressure treated decks but cedar decks did not like it and it peeled. I am sure you all know. We took care of a lot of people and did cost me a lot of money but most all of them were happy and did use us again. You live you learn.

[RSuds 24]

Brian,

What is your handicap? For others, golf of course...

I am a 12 at my home course which is very very hard. At a regular publicly course I can shoot in the 70s.

[RPetry 564]

I am a 12 at my home course which is very very hard. At a regular publicly course I can shoot in the 70s.

Brian,

Holy smokes. You can play golf. After 2 1/2 yrs., I still stink...

[RPetry 564]

... And I already was adding extra spirits, one bottle of M-1 mildewcide to each gallon after adding spirits, and extra jap drier to make sure the surface dried/cured faster. ...

Daniel,

With that statement, you are no longer using AC stain.

Edited September 7, 2011 by RPetry
missing bracket

[bigchaz 157]

Note that we all have different uses as well. I have never stained a wood sided or log home or anything other than pressure treated pine and a mahogany and an IPE deck with A/C so that also could contribute to difference in results from Celeste/Myself. There are also various product lines which people tend to forget with any product. Semi Transparent would be different than the Toner as I've mentioned before and the same would be true for WTW and WR or Timber Oil. Its not always apples to apples, even in the same geographic location as Celeste has pointed out.

[bigchaz 157]

This thread....is supposed to be about removing Sikkens Cetol DEK product....correct?

Beth

Haha I think so??? It was....I'm sure we can quickly find whos post sent it awry though ;) :thinking:

If the rain stops I'll have this deck finally stained and can post the finished pictures to get us back on track...hopefully...

Edited September 7, 2011 by bigchaz

[RPetry 564]

... There are also various product lines which people tend to forget with any product. Semi Transparent would be different than the Toner as I've mentioned before and the same would be true for WTW and WR or Timber Oil. Its not always apples to apples, even in the same geographic location as Celeste has pointed out.

Charlie,

Well said. Not being intimately familiar with AC stains, as the kids say, "My bad".

Good post.

[James 624]

Charlie do you add a mildewcide to beef up the product against mildew?

[plainpainter 217]

Well my $5 dollar investment in M-1 per gallon did little more than shovel $hit against the mildew tide. Extra Jap drier to cure the surface faster to lock everything in, and extra spirits to make sure everything dives in deeper faster before the extra Jap drier sets up everything. It's amazing to me that these ingredients that can only improve a product's performance is then intimated by another member as the cause of failure - by adulterating the base product. When it's the base product that was failing miserably to begin with.

What many folks forget about the stain debacle several years ago about non-drying, and jap drier exasperating the situation - is that jap drier is mainly a 'surface' drier. And if the original product is not actually penetrating into the wood - then of course Jap drier will only make it worse. Had the contractors here had thinned the stain considerably so that it could have actually penetrated into the wood, the jap drier would have been successful. This is what is causing most of the failure out there - not enough penetration into the substrate, with a gooey layer of uncured 'vegetable' resins sitting on the surface.

Extra thinner, extra jap drier, and extra mildewcide will all aid in diminishing this. If a product is still not performing - then there are more severe issues with it.

[bigchaz 157]

And by thinning a toner you distribute even more an already low concentration of pigment (compared to semi trans) which makes me even more impressed by the results you posted at the 17 month mark or whatever it was.

I don't use any mildewcide James, I don't know if it would help a little bit but its impossible to find around here anyway. I always thought M1 was for latex too.

Sent from my BlackBerry 8530 using Tapatalk

[plainpainter 217]

And by thinning a toner you distribute even more an already low concentration of pigment (compared to semi trans) which makes me even more impressed by the results you posted at the 17 month mark or whatever it was.

I don't use any mildewcide James, I don't know if it would help a little bit but its impossible to find around here anyway. I always thought M1 was for latex too.

Sent from my BlackBerry 8530 using Tapatalk

First of all Charlie, that's a stupid assumption on your part. I didn't start changing the product until this spring as reactionary to the results I was getting, that deck I did 2 years ago was unadulterated. I used that product in it's original form. Secondly, I haven't seen an arguement that adding more thinner reduces the density - all it does it get better penetration and more product into the wood. Especially if you perform 2 wet/on/wet coats like I do. I flood the surface and wait about 45 minutes to let the first layer settle in the wood and set up and then drench it again. What made the products pre 2005 such high quality was the amount of spirits in them. All I did was make the stain 550 VOC much like TWP 100 - which is considered by many to be the 'tops' in stain. The arguement/selling point manufactueres have been making about 'high' solids stain translating into higher quality is something I have yet to see in the 'field' as producing spectacular results.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

I thought this might add a bit of levity to the discussion.

Judy, the dogs, and I were sitting on our ipe' deck this evening. Nolie, the snot nosed Schnauzer, started playing with his favorite beach ball. Took a look and low and behold, it is covered with nasty mold/mildew!

No indication of such on the ipe'/PT spindled AC mahogany stained deck. I guess AC works fine in this region of NJ, unless you are staining some kind of rubberized vinyl.

[plainpainter 217]

Maybe he improved the formula and conveniently forgot to mention it?

[Tom DeFrancesco 23]

Tom,

Medium brown RS is one of my slower sellers. A few cedar decks over the years. Light brown on decent WRC looks best to me. We do use MB on ipe', its a good color for customers that do not like any red tint. Ready Seal medium red is by far our biggest seller.

I'm getting pernickety in my elder years but I do have to take exception to this statement. Second to ebony, ipe' is one of the most dense woods in nature. Certainly for high end decks. Anyone ever heard or seen an ebony deck? !!!

We work on a lot of ipe'. As dense as the wood is, it does fir. Not much, but enough to require a quick, light sanding after a medium strip or hard cleaning. Otherwise, oil stains look a bit blotchy after application.

You are welcome, but no need for thanks. You earned it.

Its funny you say that Rick. We have been going thru MB like CRAZY. Pierce can back me up on this, probably went thru about 150 gals of it this year alone. Last year about 140. Seems to always be between MB and NC.

As far as the wood, I agree a 100% as far as density. I actually have only done about 5 ipe decks. All came out great. 4 of them all wanted medium red and fifth one was medium brown.

[RPetry 564]

Maybe he improved the formula and conveniently forgot to mention it?

Daniel,

The AC mahogany stain used on my ipe' is at least a year old, maybe two. I "won" a 5'er of it winning a stain contest on the woodpros.com.

[plainpainter 217]

Daniel,

The AC mahogany stain used on my ipe' is at least a year old, maybe two. I "won" a 5'er of it winning a stain contest on the woodpros.com.

Lousy quality control? I know most people on these boards want to marginalize me as a contractor and made irrelevent - but how do you explain

away Celeste and Jim's experience? Since you have had success, or what you qualify as success on this one ipe deck, therefore the product is a success?

And therefore My experience, Celeste, and Jim's don't count? For all I know, Rick, you've pumped that deck so full of RS over the years - that it's having

a beneficial effect on this latest stain. What about the customers' ipe deck that's only seen ATO when it was first built and nothing since in 5-6 years?

You still feel confident you'll get identical results?

As good as you claim that stain is on your ipe deck, me thinks it still wont' get you away from using RS on your customers. Which is probably a good thing for

you. You'll still get the results for customers that you and your customers are use to and happy with - and you get to give continual kudos to your buddy, Jake,

for making such a high quality product that you hardly ever use.

Difference between me and you Rick, is that I based my business 100% on that product for two seasons - where as you never did. I now know the outcomes of

doing so. Another complaint that seems to be coming up more and more now among clients, they talk about the 'creaking' of the boards when they walk over it.

That never was ever brought up before - and I can't even begin to imagine why?

[bigchaz 157]

I'll post pictures of the deck this thread was originally about tomorrow. It was stained with a beautiful blend of Rustic Brown and Sierra Redwood Armstrong Clark. Beautiful finish and my customer is elated as usual.

You've had problems with the stain, Dan we get it. You posted one or two pictures after a supposed two years worth of problems. Go marry your TWP (i think that's legal in your state?) after the one deck you did and and I fare you and TWP happily ever after. TWP is a good stain, if it works for you I say go for it. I don't have any motivation to convince you otherwise. I just wish you would give up what seems to have become a personal vendetta on AC and quit attempting to convince the entire world that the product I've made a strong business on is the worst thing out there. My results speak otherwise.

I tried Ready Seal early in my "career". I didn't care for it, I had problems with getting the results posted by others on the boards. But my poor results don't marginalize the product as a failure. It didn't work for me and my business and my geographic area simple as that. But I don't have any reason to come on here and spend inordinate amounts of energy highlighting Ready Seal or it's manufacturing as some sort of terrible failure. It didn't fit what I was looking to do so I found a different stain. Guys like Rick and hundreds of other's have posted great results with RS (just as myself, Tony, Rick and others have posted with A/C).

[Scott Paul 164]

Lousy quality control? I know most people on these boards want to marginalize me as a contractor and made irrelevent - but how do you explain

away Celeste and Jim's experience?

Dan-

We get customer complaints on all the stains we sell including TWP. There is not a perfect stain for every environment. When customers call us asking for the "best" stain that we sell we tell them there is not a "best" stain for every scenario. We break it down into geographic location, wood type, age of wood, etc. then offer at least two options.

The products with the least amount of complaints in order are:

1. Armstrong Clark - Never had a homeowner/customer call and complain. Never had an issue locally when we applied. In fact the only issues I have heard are from you, James, Celeste. I am sure others may have had issues but the positive results significantly outweigh any negative.

2. TWP - Never color retention or mold issues. Most are from drying or curing issues related to homeowner not prepping or applying properly.

3. Defy - Yes homeowners love Defy, contractors not so much.

After that the complaints go up significantly depending on the brand.

If you had an issue with a stain then move on and find something different. I tried Ready Seal and didn't care for it. Does not mean it is a "bad" stain as many people have good results. It just did not work for me.

If you are looking for a product that is going to perform 100% perfect every time then you will be disappointed because it does not exist. You cannot control what happens to that deck after you leave over the next 2-3 years.

[RPetry 564]

... - but how do you explain away Celeste and Jim's experience? Since you have had success, or what you qualify as success on this one ipe deck, therefore the product is a success? And therefore My experience, Celeste, and Jim's don't count?...

Daniel,

Either you have a very poor, selective memory or you ignore what others' post. Earlier in this very same thread I wrote the following:

Diamond Jim,

I totally agree with you and have no qualms about informing each other of product problems on this web site. There is no question that you and Daniel, and I imagine others in certain climates/regions have had performance issues with some AC stains. ...

... For all I know, Rick, you've pumped that deck so full of RS over the years - that it's having a beneficial effect on this latest stain. What about the customers' ipe deck that's only seen ATO when it was first built and nothing since in 5-6 years? You still feel confident you'll get identical results?

I have been using my own ipe' deck as a test bed for various stains and acids over the years. This has been documented here on the Grime Scene, with pictures, comments, and general discussion. Obviously, prior to laying down a new test stain, the ipe' is stripped, brightened, and lightly sanded. Actually, last year I tested Defy for Hardwoods on my ipe' prior to stripping it off this past Spring. The year before that I tested AC Rustic Brown.

As far as your statement, "you've pumped that deck so full of RS over the years", it appears you know little about ipe'. Due to its' density, the wood absorbs very little oil, including paraffin oil. Having been stripped three times in three years since there was RS applied to the ipe', there is certainly no RS left in my ipe'.

My experience with the AC Mahogany, which has held up extremely well for the first 6 months of summer, is very encouraging. So at this point I would have to say "Yes" to your question.

... As good as you claim that stain is on your ipe deck, me thinks it still wont' get you away from using RS on your customers. Which is probably a good thing for you. You'll still get the results for customers that you and your customers are use to and happy with - and you get to give continual kudos to your buddy, Jake, for making such a high quality product that you hardly ever use. ...

I've been using Ready Seal almost exclusively on customer wood for about 9 years. Certainly, that is not going to change. Dependent on how well the AC Mahogany holds up through this winter on my test ipe', and the ease of maintenance, I may offer the stain to ipe' customers that want a different "look" that a hybrid oil provides.

Edited September 13, 2011 by RPetry
correction

[bigchaz 157]

Anyway, here are the after pictures for the deck originally posted in this thread. I have to give some credit...the wood underneath that sikkens was in remarkably good condition. So for what's it worth although the finish was peeling and unsightly, it seemed to keep this deck very well protected for its age (6 years old).

We did some minor sanding to take out residual Sikkens (not much), and stained this thing with about 7 or 8 gallons of Armstrong Clark Sierra Redwood and Rustic Brown semi transparent mixed 50/50. I rarely go this dark on a deck, but the homeowner and I really loved the way this color came out. Really goes well since they don't get as much sun and have good tree cover which not only helps the wood blend with the yard but keeps the surface from getting as hot with a darker tone.

Been a busy few weeks...need to make another run to the dump for all the cans. I'm sure some of you use way more stain but I try to keep Scott at the sealer store busy as best I can!

[James 624]

Most contractor do not like bring up product problems in public. They will quietly switch or not use a problematic product on large projects ( like a house). Very difficult and costly to fix a house. Decks you can talk your way out problems.