Can mineral spirits screw up a product?

[plainpainter 217]

With all these newer formulations that lack the mineral spirits of yesteryear, It got me thinking can you screw up a product's performance with the use of additional mineral spirits - assuming you apply enough material to maintain original coverage rates? Assume for the sake of arguement that you limit to 25% reduction.

Edited September 8, 2011 by plainpainter

[Tonyg 14]

Dan, I know a lot of solvent based products would routinely list 10% reduction as a maximum on the product data sheets. Without a few years of testing, with a sufficient number of projects in different exposure settings, I don't think you could realistically produce a product that would offer any consistency. I've used Jap dryer for years in the alkyds of old and adding too much, adding more than the 10% solvent, or even a mildewcide additive, could change the coating in either appearance or bonding. I know paint/stain is nothing but a chemical recipe, and its not brain surgery, but brewing your own cocktails and getting mad at the results can hardly be blamed on the manufacturers.

Honestly, I know you are a pessimist by nature and I highly doubt that any stain from any manufacturer will get by without your being unhappy with the results. I haven't found the magic bullet product but I will use what I know and if I find that I get unsatisfactory results too often I will simply use another product. If I buy a piece of prime rib that doesn't suit my taste, I'm not going to pour ketchup all over it to try to make it taste like the prime rib that I want. I just go to another restaurant rather than sit outside complaining about it night after night.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Tonyg

[dave mac 26]

I let the manufacture do their job making the stuff, and i do my job putting it on, the HO could not ask for more.

[RPetry 564]

It would be enlightening if Jake Clark of AC, Russell Cissell of ESI, or other exterior wood stain manufacturer would reply to this thread.

[plainpainter 217]

It would be enlightening if Jake Clark of AC, Russell Cissell of ESI, or other exterior wood stain manufacturer would reply to this thread.

If a manufacturer would reply, I would prefer it to be one not tied to this industy - someone from a Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore, etc - someone with much experience

formulating oil based products, yet has no motives to lie to us to protect their products from scrutiny. I can understand the proportion of pigment and mildewcides may have to

change in order to maintain the same coverage density rates when applied - but other than that, does adding mineral spirits fundamentally screw up a low VOC product. Or if

you just apply more wet-on-wet coats so that the original spread rates are maintained, has something changed? We use to all spread deck stains that averaged 30% solids before

2005, now we spread stains that average 60% solids. If we double the mildewcide and pigment along with doubling the spirits to make a 250 VOC stain into a 550 VOC stain - will

it truly be Screwed up?

[RPetry 564]

If a manufacturer would reply, I would prefer it to be one not tied to this industy - someone from a Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore, etc - someone with much experience formulating oil based products, yet has no motives to lie to us to protect their products from scrutiny. ...

Daniel,

I'm not sure if either of those manufacturers make an oil based exterior wood stain any longer. If they do so and as larger companies, why would their motives be any different from a small stain producer? Common sense and real world experience indicates, in many large companies, PR hacks and advertising "spin" rule the public perception, not true information. Like it or not, bigger business thrive on the bottom line, not on small contractor experience or perception.

... - but other than that, does adding mineral spirits fundamentally screw up a low VOC product. ... If we double the mildewcide and pigment along with doubling the spirits to make a 250 VOC stain into a 550 VOC stain - will it truly be Screwed up?

I don't know. But as a contractor in Ma., my business in NJ, and others in various states, your custom 550 VOC formula is illegal. I personally am not without faults, but consciously violating the law in my business is unthinkable. My advice would be to find another, legal, exterior decking stain.

[Chappy 138]

If a manufacturer would reply, I would prefer it to be one not tied to this industy - someone from a Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore, etc - someone with much experience

formulating oil based products, yet has no motives to lie to us to protect their products from scrutiny. I can understand the proportion of pigment and mildewcides may have to

change in order to maintain the same coverage density rates when applied - but other than that, does adding mineral spirits fundamentally screw up a low VOC product. Or if

you just apply more wet-on-wet coats so that the original spread rates are maintained, has something changed? We use to all spread deck stains that averaged 30% solids before

2005, now we spread stains that average 60% solids. If we double the mildewcide and pigment along with doubling the spirits to make a 250 VOC stain into a 550 VOC stain - will

it truly be Screwed up?

Daniel, im honestly surprised you can get or if bed some days. Cynicism like yours can be as debilitating as the worst phobias. Russeljakophobia? Thise guys are th there to help, just because they don't tell you what you want to hear, doesn't mean theyre lying.

[Doug Black 18]

Confining my comments strictly to TWP 200, I have not noticed any problems at blends up to 15%. Whether to do so or not is more a function of the wood surface and needs. I haven't tried higher than that due to how the mix seemed to feel (light enough)

Confining my comments strictly to Sherwin Williams,...are you serious? Every time I use anything from them I am left thinking "oh god take me now".

The poll you have created is really a false dichotomy and I therefore won't vote.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Doug Black

[bigchaz 157]

TWP 200 instructions actually specify addition of spirits for horizontal or walking applications, but I wonder what its starting VOC is

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[plainpainter 217]

TWP 200 instructions actually specify addition of spirits for horizontal or walking applications, but I wonder what its starting VOC is

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Starting VOC is 100 for TWP 200, you can thin it 30% and still be legal.

[plainpainter 217]

Daniel,

I'm not sure if either of those manufacturers make an oil based exterior wood stain any longer. If they do so and as larger companies, why would their motives be any different from a small stain producer? Common sense and real world experience indicates, in many large companies, PR hacks and advertising "spin" rule the public perception, not true information. Like it or not, bigger business thrive on the bottom line, not on small contractor experience or perception.

I don't know. But as a contractor in Ma., my business in NJ, and others in various states, your custom 550 VOC formula is illegal. I personally am not without faults, but consciously violating the law in my business is unthinkable. My advice would be to find another, legal, exterior decking stain.

illegal to manufacture, but perfectly legal to buy, and if I feel like it - I can swab on mineral spirits straight onto my deck.

[RPetry 564]

illegal to manufacture, but perfectly legal to buy, and if I feel like it - I can swab on mineral spirits straight onto my deck.

Daniel,

Residing in Ma., even if it is your own deck, I doubt if that speculation is true. Being a contractor, doing work for others, it is certainly not true.

Edited September 10, 2011 by RPetry
addition

[Doug Black 18]

illegal to manufacture, but perfectly legal to buy, and if I feel like it - I can swab on mineral spirits straight onto my deck.

This is true. The whole notion of making your stain "illegal" is just silly.

As far as truly caring about the environment (these VOC laws do very little, if you take into consideration the exemptions of the big players get) this article is the best and most accurate and succinct out there: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/opinion/going-green-but-getting-nowhere.html?_r=3&ref=todayspaper

Things MUST occur on a GLOBAL scale if our species is going to make it.

[plainpainter 217]

There is no law, Rick, that says I can't spread my own turpentine/boiled linseed oil mix onto a deck. Now if I want to sell it on some retail shelf, then I have to comply to all those VOC laws.

[PPW1234 14]

Newbie question of the day. What is the benefit of adding mineral spirits to stain? And if it is so beneficial, why don't the manufactures already do this for us?

[plainpainter 217]

Newbie question of the day. What is the benefit of adding mineral spirits to stain? And if it is so beneficial, why don't the manufactures already do this for us?

It helps resins and pigment penetrate into the wood before it sets up, otherwise everything just sits on the surface. Manufacturers used the stuff in spades, it's Uncle Sam that told them they had to cut back due to air quality standards. Stains haven't been the same since they made the changes.

[RPetry 564]

... Stains haven't been the same since they made the changes.

Daniel,

Very true aside from the fact that your statement should be most stains have had to make formulation changes to conform with the stricter VOC compliance laws.

Edited September 10, 2011 by RPetry
additional verb

[plainpainter 217]

Daniel,

Very true aside from the fact that your statement should be most stains have had to make formulation changes to conform with the stricter VOC compliance laws.

Ok - Readyseal probably hasn't needed to reformulate. But you have to be one brave person to use that stuff. I am at the one week mark with TWP200 - and puddles of parafinnic

oil formed in the hot sun today - and unlike readyseal, it has curing resins at the top to supposedly lock everything in! I love this stain, but I couldn't use it for customers unless they were

going on vacation for 2+ weeks!

[RPetry 564]

Ok - Readyseal probably hasn't needed to reformulate.

Daniel,

As far as I know, that is correct. Certainly on the solvent side.

... But you have to be one brave person to use that stuff. ...

I doubt that statement. My company, as well as numerous other contractors, have been using Ready Seal stains for a long time. Our stain applications for the past 9 years on customers' wood have been probably 95% Ready Seal. Nothing brave about that. Just good common sense and good for both our customers exterior wood and good for our businesses.

... I am at the one week mark with TWP200 - and puddles of parafinnic oil formed in the hot sun today - and unlike readyseal, it has curing resins at the top to supposedly lock everything in! I love this stain, but I couldn't use it for customers unless they were going on vacation for 2+ weeks!

I know nothing about TWP 200. But you should anticipate a job or two before knowing the attributes or any new stain.

[James 624]

Mineral spirits, moon shine, grappa, grain , tool oil, all good sniffing or sifter goober drunking ?

[plainpainter 217]

Rick, I haven't used Readyseal - I have used ESI's timberoil product which is similar as well as TWP200. Timberoil is not nearly as difficult as TWP200 is, but I still remember pools of Timberoil coming out in the hot sun days after application. Is Readyseal performance different from this? And if it isn't - do you have any sort of agreement with your customers not to walk on the deck for days written in your contracts? My experience is that customers want to walk on their decks the very next day - and I have had to appease that desire. It's the rare customer now that is willing to give up 48 hours from their lives to not use their deck.

[bigchaz 157]

I'm surprised your customers are that gung ho about getting on the deck ASAP. That makes for a great sell if they use the deck that often. Most of y customers seem to assume it will be a week before they can use the deck and are always pleasantly surprised when I tell them to go ahead the next day. Most of my clients are barely home during the week anyway so you could just tell them Saturday and be good to go.

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[plainpainter 217]

I'm surprised your customers are that gung ho about getting on the deck ASAP. That makes for a great sell if they use the deck that often. Most of y customers seem to assume it will be a week before they can use the deck and are always pleasantly surprised when I tell them to go ahead the next day. Most of my clients are barely home during the week anyway so you could just tell them Saturday and be good to go.

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Second to last deck I did, Charlie, lady came right behind my back to walk inside walking all over standing wet stripper - I get no breaks with many homeowners.

[RPetry 564]

Mineral spirits, moon shine, grappa, grain , tool oil, all good sniffing or sifter goober drunking ?

Diamond Jim,

Hah! You should take up golf. We could load the cart with Greenies, bet on holes/shots, and have a hoot! Maybe score an oz. of dried mushrooms? Now that would be a round worth remembering, especially at our age!

[RPetry 564]

... Is Readyseal performance different from this? And if it isn't - do you have any sort of agreement with your customers not to walk on the deck for days written in your contracts?...

Daniel,

Yes it is. But it may not be the stain, it may be the prep. Regardless, the only time I've seen RS seep out on the surface after application is late in the season, think October, when it can get into the low 40's F. or even mid to high 30's F. at night. The wood contracts, and the paraffin oil can come back to the surface of the wood. But typically, after 10:00 AM, the paraffin oil is back down into the wood where it belongs.

Our contracts state not to use or walk on the finished deck for 48 hours after final stain application. Not that a customer can hurt the finish, but I do not want any customer tracking possible surface oil/resin/stain into their home. Never had a complaint, claim, or known occurance in 9 years. And we do a fair amount of decks, especially ipe'.

[RPetry 564]

... - I get no breaks with many homeowners.

Daniel,

Respectfully, you are either not explaining the process or expectations with your homeowners. If that is not the case, you are doing work for stupid or deaf customers. They, as well as price shoppers, are to be avoided like the plague. Learned a long time ago in this business that you qualify your customers face to face. Not many, but some are not worth doing business with.